What are immutable differences between men and women?

[AG31]

Apart from genitalia and breasts, and focusing only on the 98% of people who are not born with androgynous traits.

Could it be pheromones?

I became especially interested in this question after experiencing a pronounced shift in my attitude toward male physicality (I'm a straight female). This experience** came on me after a long life of relatively low libido, with romantic relationships being based more in personality than sexuality. As far as I know there were no changes in my external or mental life that triggered it. Very visceral. In other words, not the product of nurture. More likely age-related breakdown in whatever regulates testosterone. Anyway, it left me with a vivid appreciation for male physicality. My fantasies focus on well-built males, but I find myself giving the eye to all sorts of men, in church, on the subway. I imagine this attitude being akin to what men are purported to experience all the time. And I'm more conscious of their "non-physical" sexuality when we're together.

What is it?

I've come up with pheromones, since I can't think of any other attribute, physical or psychological, which is commonly associated with one sex or the other which is not also absent in someone. There are always exceptions. Indeed, writing against sexual stereotype is one good way to make your erotica interesting. Who knows, maybe some people don't give off pheromones, but who's to know?

EDIT: See my comment https://forum.literotica.com/thread...en-men-and-women.1617755/page-5#post-99546686

** See the afterword to Twelve Maxbridge Street for a detailed description of this experience. I know, I know. I misspell "afterword" and (should you read the story) I should have provided lubricant. I fixed these problems long ago in the Smashwords version, but they didn't seem important enough to clog up the Literotica channels with a revision.

 

[OffNSFW]

The idea that men and women are two discreet and biologically distinct categories is a drastic oversimplification that was more or less reverse-engineered from the shifting of gender norms over the past couple hundred years. That said, in my scientific observation, straight men do not know how to dress or groom themselves.

 

[Privates1stClass]

My opinion is that it's genetics, which causes the male and female brains to be wired differently. Pheromones could play a part, but that could be based on genetics, too.

It's an age-old question which I doubt we'll be able to solve on Literotica.

 

[AlinaX]

I think it's something to do with jam jars.

 

[StillStunned]

Or understanding the offside rule.

 

[TheLobster]

There are always exceptions.

Indeed, and that's because men and women are the same species. There is of course a degree a sexual dimorphism, but in humans it is relatively mild. For most qualities and traits that you can point to a continuous distribution (height, weight, aptitude in certain kinds of physical or mental tasks), you will generally find two Gaussian peaks corresponding to each one of the two sexes. There will be some degree of overlap between them, along with the tails being exclusive to one sex (e.g. the very shortest people are all women and very tallest are all men). The male curve will often be flatter, too, meaning that the extremes are more common in men.

This saying, ideas like:

The idea that men and women are two discreet and biologically distinct categories is a drastic oversimplification that was more or less reverse-engineered from the shifting of gender norms over the past couple hundred years.

are total drivel that almost certainly stem from currently fashionable ideologies. There are some qualities and traits where there is no continuous distribution to point to, and those fall into two discrete and biologically distinct categories of male and female. (The most important of those being, of course, the kind of gametes that your body is innately geared to produce).

Or understanding the offside rule.

That one is like quantum mechanics: no one who says he understands it actually does.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

To be fair, there are other, less obvious, differences than height and genitalia (all with bell curves, to be sure).

Men have a higher level of testosterone. This provides muscles and strength, of course. It also tends to push to a higher melanin level, making males a little bit darker, and, in the process, giving women brighter eyes.

Women are less able to deal with ethanol. They get drunk sooner, even given a lower body mass, and sober up more slowly.

The symptoms of many physical conditions are different in the two sexes. Women have long complained, for instance, that the standard research and teaching about heart attacks focus on male symptoms, for instance.

Big picture - women live longer. Some of this is doubtlessly due to men lowering the stats by taking the majority of dangerous jobs, but there's most certainly something else at play, probably a whole bucket of 'something elses'.

Diseases are often skewed between sexes.

Willies and wobblies are just the obvious. Vive la différence!

 

[StillStunned]

Willies and wobblies are just the obvious. Vive la différence!

They're the interesting differences. I doubt you'll often hear the phrase, "Phwaw, check out the life expectancy on her!

 

[AG31]

They're the interesting differences. I doubt you'll often hear the phrase, "Phwaw, check out the life expectancy on her!

Objectively, I don't think this is super clever. But it did make me laugh out loud.

 

[ronde]

There are many differences but as TheLobster says, they aren't mutually exclusive. Some differences that are interesting to me are:

Women tend to observe things in a wide arc. Men tend to focus on one object or subject. Think the old game where a dozen or so items are placed on a table and covered with a sheet. The sheet is removed for a minute and then the observers are asked to write down how many they remember. Women tend to score higher than men because they look at the table as a whole rather than looking at one item at a time. Evolutionists explain this as the initial roles of males and females. Males were the hunters and focused on one animal in order to follow it and bring home meat. Women were the gatherers and had to be able to spot plants quickly and be able to identify which were edible and which were not.

Women remember landmarks. Men remember directions. You'll see this in any store at your local mall. There will be no straight paths to anything and that's intentional. That's because women think, "turn left at the jewelry counter, then right at the children's clothes and there are the shoes. In the process, they'll pass other departments or items and often stop to look and buy something. Men want XX miles and then turn south. Again, this is an evolutionary adaptation caused by the different roles of men and women.

Women tend to have a lesser understanding of spatial relationships, while men are very oriented toward them. The old joke about a woman not being able to read a map is somewhat true. They have problems relating the lines of the map to where they are and where they're going. Early man didn't have maps, but they had major landmarks and a sense of direction that served as maps. Women can learn though, so it's not an absolute trait.

I have worked a long time in an industrial setting, and it's well known that women are far better than men at assembly tasks. Women are faster and make fewer mistakes. Men tend to excel at tasks that require strength and math skills. It's very rare to find a female precision machinist, just as it's rare to find a male assembly operator who can work as fast as a woman. Part of the reason is that women have smaller and more nimble hands. I personally think another reason is women are geared to see small details, and this is also probably the result of evolution. Women were the care givers and had to be able to see small changes in how a person acted and looked, especially babies.

 

[AG31]

making males a little bit darker, and, in the process, giving women brighter eyes.

Well, gee! Who knew!!! I love this place.

 

[AG31]

Thanks! I'm a clarity junky, and for me this makes stuff clear.

 

[Lifestyle66]

... after experiencing a pronounced shift in my attitude toward male physicality (I'm a straight female). This experience** came on me after a long life of relatively low libido, with romantic relationships being based more in personality than sexuality. As far as I know there were no changes in my external or mental life that triggered it. Very visceral. In other words, not the product of nurture. More likely age-related breakdown in whatever regulates testosterone. Anyway, it left me with a vivid appreciation for male physicality. My fantasies focus on well-built males, but I find myself giving the eye to all sorts of men, in church, on the subway. I imagine this attitude being akin to what men are purported to experience all the time. And I'm more conscious of their "non-physical" sexuality when we're together.

What is it?

I've come up with pheromones, since I can't think of any other attribute, physical or psychological, ...

As I read your original post, I focused on the question "What might cause an unexpected interest in sexual attraction? Pheromones?"

Sometimes a change in your libido or interest in sex can be attributed to changes in diet, exercise, or even your own self-esteem.

Although testosterone (along with estrogen in women) can change a woman's attitude toward sex, it doesn't act alone. And there are two measures of testosterone which are equally important: serum testosterone and "free testosterone". A normal to high level of serum testosterone alone is not enough to increase sex drive. That serum testosterone can be increased with slow-release pellets (or injections or patches) which has mixed results in different people. In some, it can make a significant increase in libido, while in others the same pellets every three months might have little effect.

If the free testosterone is relatively low (not affected by pellet treatments), that would leave a person (male or female) with low energy and a low ability to enjoy sex, even if the serum testosterone is average to high. And free testosterone is affected by things like exercise and alcohol intake. So, just stopping or drastically decreasing the amount you drink for a period of time would improve your interest in sex.

Also, if your self-esteem or self-image improved due to something like changing appearance in a positive way or maybe even a significant pay raise or promotion at work, a person might start looking around at what other options in sexual attraction they might have been missing.

And as far as age-related changes, when parents experience changes in their family routines like kids becoming more independent or going off to college, it might affect one parent with an attitude change of "What's next? Or what have I been missing?" In the Loving Wives category, that might contribute to the "Martian Slut Ray" stories, where the wife suddenly announces to her husband, "We need to talk!"

(BTW: My understanding of the hormone pellets and their effects come from almost four years of watching my wife's changes every three months, personally experiencing their affects twice, and talking to the doctor inserting and monitoring those pellets in both of us.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

I find myself giving the eye to all sorts of men, in church, on the subway. I imagine this attitude being akin to what men are purported to experience all the time. And I'm more conscious of their "non-physical" sexuality when we're together.

What is it?

I've come up with pheromones, since I can't think of any other attribute, physical or psychological, which is commonly associated with one sex or the other which is not also absent in someone. There are always exceptions. Indeed, writing against sexual stereotype is one good way to make your erotica interesting. Who knows, maybe some people don't give off pheromones, but who's to know?

Sense of smell, for humans, is not directional; your nose might be able to tell you "somebody sexy is nearby" but I can't see how it would point you to a specific person out of a congregation, say.

 

[AG31]

As I read your original post, I focused on the question "What might cause an unexpected interest in sexual attraction? Pheromones?"

Sometimes a change in your libido or interest in sex can be attributed to changes in diet, exercise, or even your own self-esteem.

Although testosterone (along with estrogen in women) can change a woman's attitude toward sex, it doesn't act alone. And there are two measures of testosterone which are equally important: serum testosterone and "free testosterone". A normal to high level of serum testosterone alone is not enough to increase sex drive. That serum testosterone can be increased with slow-release pellets (or injections or patches) which has mixed results in different people. In some, it can make a significant increase in libido, while in others the same pellets every three months might have little effect.

If the free testosterone is relatively low (not affected by pellet treatments), that would leave a person (male or female) with low energy and a low ability to enjoy sex, even if the serum testosterone is average to high. And free testosterone is affected by things like exercise and alcohol intake. So, just stopping or drastically decreasing the amount you drink for a period of time would improve your interest in sex.

Also, if your self-esteem or self-image improved due to something like changing appearance in a positive way or maybe even a significant pay raise or promotion at work, a person might start looking around at what other options in sexual attraction they might have been missing.

And as far as age-related changes, when parents experience changes in their family routines like kids becoming more independent or going off to college, it might affect one parent with an attitude change of "What's next? Or what have I been missing?" In the Loving Wives category, that might contribute to the "Martian Slut Ray" stories, where the wife suddenly announces to her husband, "We need to talk!"

(BTW: My understanding of the hormone pellets and their effects come from almost four years of watching my wife's changes every three months, personally experiencing their affects twice, and talking to the doctor inserting and monitoring those pellets in both of us.)

Thanks. Very interesting.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Sense of smell, for humans, is not directional; your nose might be able to tell you "somebody sexy is nearby" but I can't see how it would point you to a specific person out of a congregation, say.

Logically, yes, but dogs, moths and elephant seals all seem to zero in quite quickly. Their senses of smell are no doubt superior.

 

[AG31]

As I read your original post, I focused on the question "What might cause an unexpected interest in sexual attraction? Pheromones?"

Sometimes a change in your libido or interest in sex can be attributed to changes in diet, exercise, or even your own self-esteem.

Although testosterone (along with estrogen in women) can change a woman's attitude toward sex, it doesn't act alone. And there are two measures of testosterone which are equally important: serum testosterone and "free testosterone". A normal to high level of serum testosterone alone is not enough to increase sex drive. That serum testosterone can be increased with slow-release pellets (or injections or patches) which has mixed results in different people. In some, it can make a significant increase in libido, while in others the same pellets every three months might have little effect.

If the free testosterone is relatively low (not affected by pellet treatments), that would leave a person (male or female) with low energy and a low ability to enjoy sex, even if the serum testosterone is average to high. And free testosterone is affected by things like exercise and alcohol intake. So, just stopping or drastically decreasing the amount you drink for a period of time would improve your interest in sex.

Also, if your self-esteem or self-image improved due to something like changing appearance in a positive way or maybe even a significant pay raise or promotion at work, a person might start looking around at what other options in sexual attraction they might have been missing.

And as far as age-related changes, when parents experience changes in their family routines like kids becoming more independent or going off to college, it might affect one parent with an attitude change of "What's next? Or what have I been missing?" In the Loving Wives category, that might contribute to the "Martian Slut Ray" stories, where the wife suddenly announces to her husband, "We need to talk!"

(BTW: My understanding of the hormone pellets and their effects come from almost four years of watching my wife's changes every three months, personally experiencing their affects twice, and talking to the doctor inserting and monitoring those pellets in both of us.)

I don't know if this affects your response, but the event to which I alluded was very physical. It was a series of experiences best described as similar to a prostate orgasm, as I have seen it in videos and described on line. See the afterword if you think that might affect your thinking.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Logically, yes, but dogs, moths and elephant seals all seem to zero in quite quickly. Their senses of smell are no doubt superior.

There are various methods for following a scent trail (nice discussion here https://knowablemagazine.org/content/article/living-world/2023/how-animals-follow-their-nose) but they mostly require moving around a lot to find the direction where the scent gets stronger. This would probably attract attention in a church or train carriage!

 

[Britva415]

I think there might be people who don't have the experience of sensing what direction a (consciously detectable) smell is coming from, but I think most people do have that experience and accept without doubt the idea that we can "follow our nose."

Even if we don't do so, we still can sense the scents of other people as they move around, nearer, farther, this side, that side, etc., so, even if we completely accept the idea that "smell is nondirectional" for humans (I don't, but just for the sake of argument), sense of smell for humans is still influenced by proximity, and our other senses tell us who is nearby when the olfactory signal gets interesting.

I'm pretty sure I've seen reference to research which indicates that having two nostrils does create a sense of direction for us humans, regarding scents. I feel like I remember a study which found that people with some kind of unilateral nerve damage which shuts off the olfactory patch in one side of the nasal cavity do more poorly on tests of sensing the direction of scents.

And that's despite the fact that they can turning their head and pointing their nose in different directions, the way most of us do/would when following our nose. It's a skill, a sense, a sensation I think most of us are familiar with.

But in a congregation or on a bus? Regarding pheromones, which presumably work at a subconscious level rather than being consciously detectable scents? The fact that we have a physical sense organ and nervous system pathways which give us a conscious sense of the directions of scents means that it must be operable at subconscious levels as well.

This is how one might consciously take note of individuals in a crowd who have interesting pheromones, even if we aren't sure why and we're completely not conscious of smelling them and we aren't consciously turning our heads and following our noses. I'm convinced that subsconsciously our brains are constantly processing information about who's nearby, who's moving around us, who's the likely source of an unconscious whiff of pheromone.

 

[Britva415]

What are immutable differences between men and women?

I honestly don't think there are any at all.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Logically, yes, but dogs, moths and elephant seals all seem to zero in quite quickly. Their senses of smell are no doubt superior.

Whoa!! Dare I ask, how you know?

 

[OffNSFW]

This saying, ideas like:

are total drivel that almost certainly stem from currently fashionable ideologies. There are some qualities and traits where there is no continuous distribution to point to, and those fall into two discrete and biologically distinct categories of male and female. (The most important of those being, of course, the kind of gametes that your body is innately geared to produce).

"currently fashionable ideologies" Just say what you mean. Although, I assure you, what you are referring to is neither an ideology nor is it recent. (The carefully engineered social panic is recent, of course.) The broad scientific consensus is that human phenotypes and their biological indicators are more complicated than our pop-sci framework of a strict male/female binary would suggest. What we are conditioned to accept as nature is socially imposed and works backwards from the presumption of a sex binary. Don't take my word for it.

As for the historical origins of the sex binary, there's a very good book on the subject called Making Sex: Body and Gender From The Greeks To Freud, by Dr. Thomas Laqueur. I'm not going to deliver a lecture on it (mostly because people get paid good money to do that), but one of its many highlights is that our understanding of different human beings belonging to separate, non-overlapping biological categories emerged at the dawn of the Industrial Revolution--a time when "God ordained it so" was no longer a satisfactory reason for depriving huge swaths of the human race of their decisionmaking rights. Again, don't take my word for it.

My answer to this thread, as with any question about supposedly separate classes of personhood, is this. There is far greater variety between one individual person and another than there is between any two categories of people you could name. It's helpful to remember, both as a writer and as a citizen of the world.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The idea that men and women are two discreet and biologically distinct categories is a drastic oversimplification that was more or less reverse-engineered from the shifting of gender norms over the past couple hundred years. That said, in my scientific observation, straight men do not know how to dress or groom themselves.

I could engage in this discussion in a meaningful way or...

I could point out that you have a two sentence post - one about gender you will soon be defending as not just a 'currently fashionable ideology' and the second one in which you bash straight men.

Classic

(For the record, intersex and transexual people have rights and deserve respect, the biological concept of male and female is a useful one - and both simple and complex at the same time)

 

[OffNSFW]

I could point out that you have a two sentence post - one about gender you will soon be defending as not just a 'currently fashionable ideology' and the second one in which you bash straight men.

Classic

Straight men are always telling everyone else to learn how to take a joke, right?

 

[TheRedChamber]

Straight men are always telling everyone else to learn how to take a joke, right?

Oh God, straight men are simply awful, darling.