The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[BLoved]

This also describes your posting style.

I'm willing to leave that to the judgment of each reader.

That is why on many ocassions I've invited them to read the discussion for themselves.

 

[BLoved]

And since, as you state below, your paradigm is built on a single experience and biased testimonial, how can your paradigm be unbiased?

...

And the above conclusion from participating to a single munch, party and talking with submissives, mostly over the internet and discrediting each experience that does not fit your paradigma.

Rida, you are obviously speaking for the effect it will have on the unsuspecting reader.

You've danced around what I've actually said regarding the analysis of the paradigm without addressing anything of substance, and thus require no response from me.

 

[BLoved]

For you, Beloved! May you find true love one day.

Thank you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAkHrk0a1ic

My apologies but with a 56k modem I don't bother trying to download youtube files.

 

[BLoved]

Did you ask about their self esteem in general? Or compartmentalise it with regards to certain aspects of their person?

I've asked both general questions and specific questions about the details they provided.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I've asked both general questions and specific questions about the details they provided.

And were they unable to provide answers, or unable to provide answers to your satisfaction?

 

[BLoved]

And were they unable to provide answers, or unable to provide answers to your satisfaction?

Yes to both questions.

Keep in mind that when I start these discussions I am looking for just that kind of information.

I am open to change my mind, providing I have good information upon which to base the change.

But what I have found is that those who engage in love-based relationships exclusively have a healthier self-esteem than those who don't. Such individuals are far more patient and mature than the casual players.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Yes to both questions.

Keep in mind that when I start these discussions I am looking for just that kind of information.

I am open to change my mind, providing I have good information upon which to base the change.

But what I have found is that those who engage in love-based relationships exclusively have a healthier self-esteem than those who don't. Such individuals are far more patient and mature than the casual players.

How many would you have tried to speak to about it though?

And how can you make that call if you couldn't get answers from people who aren't in love-based relationships? You need to keep going until you have a comparable set of data, I think.

 

[BLoved]

How many would you have tried to speak to about it though?

And how can you make that call if you couldn't get answers from people who aren't in love-based relationships? You need to keep going until you have a comparable set of data, I think.

The inability to answer a question is, in and of itself, an answer.

As I've said before, this is not the first time I've discussed this topic in a forum. I have tried many times to get this information, but casual players would prefer to respond with immature attempts to discredit me until they call for my banishment, at which time the discussion ends.

This has left me to conclude there is no answer, they know it, and to distract from this fact they attack me instead.

This discussion is very typical of that process.

 

[eastern sun]

I am open to change my mind, providing I have good information upon which to base the change.

But what I have found is that those who engage in love-based relationships exclusively have a healthier self-esteem than those who don't. Such individuals are far more patient and mature than the casual players.

I think you're over-generalizing.

There are immature people in both camps. And mature people in both camps.

One can't determine maturity with that broad a criteria.

It would be far more fruitful to this discussion to identify the foundations of ethical behavior, and then apply it to actual behavior.

The Buddhists reject the word "love" in favor of "loving-kindness" or some such, because the concept of love is so confused in our Western cultural mind.

Romantic love (tinged as it is with sexual attraction) does not have the same stability and equanimity that genuine kindness, thoughtful care, and compassion generate.

I think it is highly possible for people to engage in BDSM activities with genuine kindness, thoughtful care and compassion, though they may not in fact feel any sort of romantic "love" toward their partner.

And I think that those activities could be considered "ethical."

 

[chy_girl]

Yep. That works.

Thanks for the effort.

Good to know kids are safe in Oregon.

But what about England?

According to this, bdsm is illegal in the United Kingdom, yet it is practised nonetheless.

How do we rest reassured that the casual 'bdsm' community is law-abiding when it obviously flaunts the law in England?

You know, I'm not Wiccan, but there is a section out of their rede that keeps occurring me when I hear you talk: "Soft of eye and light of touch, speak ye little, listen much." Very practical advice, that. The rede also speaks of "perfect love and perfect trust."

That being said, I find it extremely hurtful and patently ridiculous that you would imply that I, of all people, would have anything to do with a community where the abuse of a child is acceptable, especially given some of the facts of my vanilla life.

 

[Bette_coquette]

This whole thread makes me want to stab myself in the eye.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

The inability to answer a question is, in and of itself, an answer.

As I've said before, this is not the first time I've discussed this topic in a forum. I have tried many times to get this information, but casual players would prefer to respond with immature attempts to discredit me until they call for my banishment, at which time the discussion ends.

This has left me to conclude there is no answer, they know it, and to distract from this fact they attack me instead.

This discussion is very typical of that process.

I think you've been told by a number of people around here that their self esteem is fine, and you've not taken it on board because it doesn't fit with your pre-determined paradigm and have instead focused on those that are attacking.

 

[Bette_coquette]

I'm also learning to hate the word "paradigm."

 

[TypicalDeviant]

Game over. You win.

 

[Bette_coquette]

Game over. You win.

If only that could be so.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

The Buddhists reject the word "love" in favor of "loving-kindness" or some such, because the concept of love is so confused in our Western cultural mind.

Can you blame them though, given the way the word 'love' is tossed around these days?

I can't count how many "I love Justin Beiber" signs I saw on the news when they showed footage of his arrival.

 

[BLoved]

I think you're over-generalizing.

~smile~

Welcome back to the discussion, ES.

Your absence has been noticed

There are immature people in both camps. And mature people in both camps.

I agree that there are immature people in both camps.

I've yet to come across a "mature" casual player, and many many people have participated in discussions such as this one.

My feeling is that if indeed there are mature casual players, they should have appeared by now. I'd recognize them because they'd be the ones policing the others.

Consider this post.

Rida was the only one to speak out against it.

That is exceptionally rare in discussions like this. You did it for a while, then backed off from it.

Situations where I am treated as a human being, such as chy_girl a few days ago and Lizzie today, they almost never happen.

It is that scarcity that paints such a bleak picture of those who participate in casual 'bdsm'.

One can't determine maturity with that broad a criteria.

Treating someone as a human being is indicative of maturity.

Treating them as someone's personal punching bag, not so much.

Compare the behaviour of the examples I just cited with the ubiquitous posts from Netzach, Graceanne, Daddy2mylilgirl, Stella_Omega ...

The difference is obvious.

It would be far more fruitful to this discussion to identify the foundations of ethical behavior, and then apply it to actual behavior.

Which is what I did in "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love".

The Buddhists reject the word "love" in favor of "loving-kindness" or some such, because the concept of love is so confused in our Western cultural mind.

That's because low self-esteem is a pandemic in western society.

Romantic love (tinged as it is with sexual attraction) does not have the same stability and equanimity that genuine kindness, thoughtful care, and compassion generate.

I disagree, as I associate all of those qualities with romantic love.

Love is not love if not selfless with the one loved.

I think it is highly possible for people to engage in BDSM activities with genuine kindness, thoughtful care and compassion, though they may not in fact feel any sort of romantic "love" toward their partner.

And I think that those activities could be considered "ethical."

If indeed they felt such things I'd question whether they are practising casual 'bdsm' at all.

 

[BLoved]

I think you've been told by a number of people around here that their self esteem is fine, and you've not taken it on board because it doesn't fit with your pre-determined paradigm and have instead focused on those that are attacking.

And when I ask questions regarding their claims about self-esteem, they leap to the attack and refuse to answer.

Even someone in denial will claim to have a healthy self-esteem, doesn't make it so.

 

[Bette_coquette]

Jesus H. Christ....

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Urgh.

DP.

(the bad kind)

 

[BLoved]

That being said, I find it extremely hurtful and patently ridiculous that you would imply that I, of all people, would have anything to do with a community where the abuse of a child is acceptable, especially given some of the facts of my vanilla life.

There is a difference between being a willing participant with full knowledge of what is going on, and being a participant without that knowledge.

The community has been guilty of many forms of abuse in this discussion alone, and yet you are still a willing member of it. You ignore these abuses and pretend they don't exist.

When we have so much evidence of members of the community turning a blind eye to abuse because other members of the community are engaging in abuse does not provide much evidence that anyone in the community cares about abuse.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Romantic love (tinged as it is with sexual attraction) does not have the same stability and equanimity that genuine kindness, thoughtful care, and compassion generate.

I disagree, as I associate all of those qualities with romantic love.

Love is not love if not selfless with the one loved.

I'd agree with ES on this one. Yes, those feelings are associated with romantic love, but that romantic love adds a sense of, well, urgency that can make things unstable.

I think it is highly possible for people to engage in BDSM activities with genuine kindness, thoughtful care and compassion, though they may not in fact feel any sort of romantic "love" toward their partner.

And I think that those activities could be considered "ethical."

If indeed they felt such things I'd question whether they are practising casual 'bdsm' at all.

But wouldn't they be, if they weren't feeling "love" ?

Yes, those feelings can be part of love, but they can also stand alone.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

And when I ask questions regarding their claims about self-esteem, they leap to the attack and refuse to answer.

Even someone in denial will claim to have a healthy self-esteem, doesn't make it so.

I'm trying to think if I did that. Heh.

But I do tend to categorise my self esteem, then have one over riding one as well.

 

[RuReal]

BLoved I refer to BDSM parties you refer to night clubs and Bars. I have a question for you do you really think the level of crime in Toronto is high for its population base? You are a fool if you think so I would like you to look at cities the same size in the states and stack the numbers.

I think you live in a world of fear and I feel sorry for you. I socialized with my local BDSM community and guess what nobody was hurt or pushed beyond limits. I suppose that this is more the exception than the rule in your world. I have not seen the street in TO that I am afraid to walk down and guess what I am not armed.

Enjoy your life of fear I for one am done with your limited mind, but expect to see me post where you preach your garbage to others to ask some of the questions I put here so that they can see your responses for what they are.

It will be good for them to know that they are dealing with someone that has a slanted view on life. PS the companies that you worked for have no relevance with your posting you do not see the rest of us trying to raise ourselves up by the places we have worked or what we do for a living. I could do it, but really does it matter or make one voice better than the other.

Sharpen what little whit because you will need it.

 

[rida]

I've spoken with people who have made such claims.

They couldn't answer my questions regarding their self-esteem.

I have an healthy self-esteem.

Rida, you are obviously speaking for the effect it will have on the unsuspecting reader.

You've danced around what I've actually said regarding the analysis of the paradigm without addressing anything of substance, and thus require no response from me.

And so are you.
I'm not dancing around your paradigma. You already know I disagree with it.
I'm showing its logical shortcoming to our gentle unsuspecting reader so that they can make up their own mind.

You also already know that I too do not condone abusive behavior. But we disagree on what we call abuse. And as such you consider me a "dysfunctional individual" caught up in the cycle of abuse.

Your prerogative to believe so. I, however think that I've shown otherwise.

And when I ask questions regarding their claims about self-esteem, they leap to the attack and refuse to answer.

Even someone in denial will claim to have a healthy self-esteem, doesn't make it so.

I've answered, as others did, and it got ignored.

Forgive me if your selective reading makes it look like you are just out to be made into a martyr to justify your crusade.