The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[BLoved]

It must have been hard for you to hear her ask you to leave. Especially after being there for her for so many years. For giving her that part of yourself and your childhood only to have to tossed back at you. Many people would have thought of that as their mother choosing something/someone over them.

I didn't think of her choosing someone over me.

I thought of it as losing the only parent I had left.

How did you deal with it when she told you to go? Where did you go?

I stayed with friends for about a week, then found a job and an apartment.

I found out much later that my mother had regretted her decision, and had hoped I'd return. However, we didn't talk for several months after that, and I never moved back.

have been heart breaking to see this man, this person who was supposed to lead and care for your family, lead both of them to addiction. Have you ever wondered why it was that out of the three of you you were the one who never picked up? Or did you pick up for a short time before you realized the path you were on?

At the age of 13 I came to realize if I was ever to learn what my father would have taught me had he lived, I was going to have to learn it on my own.

It gave me a sense of purpose, a sense of self, a sense of autonomy. In a sense, I was my own father. In many ways I am still on that path, having come to realize there is no end to learning, it is a life-long process.

In my early 20s my apartment was a going concern: a party every night. Lots of booze, and I consumed a fair share of it.

I cut back when I realized one night that my speech was slurred. I hated that. Communication was always important to me, and intoxicating myself to the point where I couldn't talk clearly annoyed the hell out of me.

Shortly after I met my first Beloved, and she expressed a concern that I might not be able to control my drinking.

I took the 26-ounce bottle of rum I'd just bought, opened it up, and poured it down the toilet.

Then I stopped drinking entirely for three years.

I finally broke my fast with a liqueur at Christmas.

Since then I rarely drink, maybe two beer in the summer, a few liqueur around Christmas and other causes for celebration, that's it.

I never drink and drive, and as I was always the driver when my wife lived, that ruled out drinking at parties and family get-togethers.

While I've been given one or two bottles of liqueur each Christmas, most of them remain sealed.

I bought a case of Heineken three years ago, and so far have had four of them.

I don't like getting drunk, and it takes very little for me to start feeling the effects. If I drink at all, it is strictly for the flavour (which is why I prefer liqueur over most any other kind of alcohol).

 

[chy_girl]

I didn't think of her choosing someone over me.

I thought of it as losing the only parent I had left.



I stayed with friends for about a week, then found a job and an apartment.

I found out much later that my mother had regretted her decision, and had hoped I'd return. However, we didn't talk for several months after that, and I never moved back.



At the age of 13 I came to realize if I was ever to learn what my father would have taught me had he lived, I was going to have to learn it on my own.

It gave me a sense of purpose, a sense of self, a sense of autonomy. In a sense, I was my own father. In many ways I am still on that path, having come to realize there is no end to learning, it is a life-long process.

In my early 20s my apartment was a going concern: a party every night. Lots of booze, and I consumed a fair share of it.

I cut back when I realized one night that my speech was slurred. I hated that. Communication was always important to me, and intoxicating myself to the point where I couldn't talk clearly annoyed the hell out of me.

Shortly after I met my first Beloved, and she expressed a concern that I might not be able to control my drinking.

I took the 26-ounce bottle of rum I'd just bought, opened it up, and poured it down the toilet.

Then I stopped drinking entirely for three years.

I finally broke my fast with a liqueur at Christmas.

Since then I rarely drink, maybe two beer in the summer, a few liqueur around Christmas and other causes for celebration, that's it.

I never drink and drive, and as I was always the driver when my wife lived, that ruled out drinking at parties and family get-togethers.

While I've been given one or two bottles of liqueur each Christmas, most of them remain sealed.

I bought a case of Heineken three years ago, and so far have had four of them.

I don't like getting drunk, and it takes very little for me to start feeling the effects. If I drink at all, it is strictly for the flavour (which is why I prefer liqueur over most any other kind of alcohol).

It sounds as though you've had to be extreamly self-contained and self-sufficient most of your life. It's not often that a 13 year old can come to the conscious decision, or have the necessary forethought, to literally raise themselves as a missing parent would have. Was there anyone in your life between the time of your father's death and moving out that you depended on someone? That you were able to step back and let the other person guide and support you as your father would have done?

 

[BLoved]

emotional psychological state is the responsibility of the top and the bottom and always has been. If one does not understand that then one should not be topping anyone.

No argument there. Nonetheless, the consensus of casual players wherever I have had this discussion (several groups on fetlife, collarme, bondage.com and mydungeonspace) is that it is not the responsibility of the top to concern himself over whether consent is meaningful or not.

It is assumed to be meaningful. Anything else would be "insulting" to the submissive (or so the mantra goes).

You do not seem to have been exposed to a healthy BDSM environment and because of this you have some very different views on what BDSM is.

Aside from the victims, the vast majority of my experience with casual players has been on forums such as this one, where I am assured everyone but me is an expert.

According to them, I am the fraud, the fake, the liar, the predator, the crazy person (pick your disability, I've heard them all).

My all time favourite was someone accusing me of being a rather stupid "cannibal" (it was alleged I started eating someone and then let them go).

On exceptionally rare occassions someone will speak up for me. They get shouted down or accused of a variety of things, including being my sock puppet.

Then again your refusal to go to any environment causes issues.

That is not true.

At the request of my wife, early in our relationship, I attended a munch and a public party in downtown Toronto. The munch was very clique-ish (no one talked to us). The party was open to anyone who walked in off the street and had the price of admission: no weapons check, no drug or booze check, no sobriety check, nothing.

That experience was the basis for the questions I ask regarding public parties in my essay "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love" (which you will find somewhere in this discussion ... I've posted it in full).

The only other experience I have with casual 'bdsm' is thanks to a group in Vancouver. My second Beloved and I moved there for a year, and came across an ad in a local paper which we answered, being curious.

They sent us a brochure wherein we were told that regardless of our roles to each other in our relationship, we were both expected to serve as submissives until such time as I (the master) was 'promoted'.

I pointed out that this meant that if she were in trouble, I'd be unable to do anything about it. We didn't pursue that any further.

That is the sum of my direct involvement.

My wife, on the other hand, attended nearly every casual party she could find for a year before she met me. She certainly felt her self-esteem was abused as a result.

How can you correct negative issues and add to the community as a whole if you refuse to be part of it.

Have you seen how casual players and their advocates handle criticism?

Try reading this discussion. They don't want to know, and they especially don't want anyone else to know.

How else do you think I've earned so many accusations regarding the state of my sanity?

If something is wrong bring it up and fix it otherwise you are as bad as they are.

I am bringing it up, and addressing the issue in the only way available to me.

As I've been repeatedly censored on other forums for raising the topic, I am not of the opinion there is a single thing that can be done to correct the problem.

The only thing I can do is educate the potential victims, and hope some of them listen.

I am sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is how I see things and my responsibility to my fellow BDSMer.

If you think it is a picnic to stand up in a public forum and deliver the straight goods to a chorus of "BLoved is crazy" droning on and on and on .... try it sometime.

Because of this I am questioning your ability to top anyone a top needs to be strong enough to effect change and make sure everyone around them is safe and you seem to have problems with that.

Try finding the courage to argue a position no one else wants to hear, let alone address. And when your reputation is a flame-broiled charcoal briquette, do it again on another forum, and another, and keep on doing it for over two years because the issue matters.

Correct me if I am seeing this incorrectly. One does not have to be large to do this.

We didn't get to page 53 of this discussion because I'm a shrinking violet.

I know a lady who can fit into overhead storage. She identifies herself as a switch, but her nature and interaction with her partner is very Top heavy on her part. I have seen her take control of situations where she thought things were not right and put her foot down. I guess my question is what is your excuse lover of people because I am not seeing the love hell I know a bottom who has done the same.

yadda yadda.

You might try reading the discussion, instead of jumping in and assuming I've done nothing.

Once again my question is what is wrong with your interactions that you cannot effect change when bad things occur?

Quite simple: I'm not predator-friendly enough.

When enough people see it in their own self-interest to keep the masses ignorant of the truth, there isn't going to be any change.

When they can have you banned simply by issuing enough complaints about you that the mods can't get anything else done, you'll find yourself talking to thin air pretty quick.

I didn't get banned from fet, from collarme, from b.com and mds for lack of trying to educate people whom the preds wished to remain ignorant.

 

[BLoved]

It sounds as though you've had to be extreamly self-contained and self-sufficient most of your life. It's not often that a 13 year old can come to the conscious decision, or have the necessary forethought, to literally raise themselves as a missing parent would have. Was there anyone in your life between the time of your father's death and moving out that you depended on someone? That you were able to step back and let the other person guide and support you as your father would have done?

Not really.

I learned a lot from the kitchen table where my mom and I would sit and discuss ethics. This was the mid-70s and mom was very keen on me learning that men and women were equally deserving of respect, compassion, consideration.

I learned those lessons well.

I was in a situation where I had to grow up fast. It was difficult, and I'd never put a child through that, but fate didn't really consult me before dealing the cards.

I wanted to be a man my father would be proud of. A man my mother would be proud of. In that regard, I think I succeeded (at least, according to her I have).

She told me she was never more impressed than when she saw me with my son. She'd worried about how I would handle being a father, having lost mine so young. But she told me I was a "natural", patient, tender, loving, playful, understanding ...

... I miss my son.

 

[chy_girl]

Not really.

I learned a lot from the kitchen table where my mom and I would sit and discuss ethics. This was the mid-70s and mom was very keen on me learning that men and women were equally deserving of respect, compassion, consideration.

I learned those lessons well.

I was in a situation where I had to grow up fast. It was difficult, and I'd never put a child through that, but fate didn't really consult me before dealing the cards.

I wanted to be a man my father would be proud of. A man my mother would be proud of. In that regard, I think I succeeded (at least, according to her I have).

She told me she was never more impressed than when she saw me with my son. She'd worried about how I would handle being a father, having lost mine so young. But she told me I was a "natural", patient, tender, loving, playful, understanding ...

... I miss my son.

It sounds like you've done a very good job at accomplishing what you set out to do at such a young age.

Have you ever sought out support, either in person or online, for the losses you've experienced in your life? They were all major bonds.

 

[BLoved]

It sounds like you've done a very good job at accomplishing what you set out to do at such a young age.

Have you ever sought out support, either in person or online, for the losses you've experienced in your life? They were all major bonds.

In my early 20s I saw a therapist for a time regarding depression.

I was assured that my depression was legitimate, that it wasn't going to go away any time soon, and that I'd have to learn to deal with it on my own.

So I did.

I am never happier than I am in love, and never more broken up than when love is lost.

I have a very strong sense of self, which sustains me when I have to face adversity. I know who I am, why I am who I am, where I want to go with my life. For me there are no cherished beliefs. Any position I take is subject to change as new (and better) information comes along. I have no investment in being wrong, and would rather learn that I am wrong than cling to a position I cannot support.

By the same token, I do not surrender my position for the sake of popularity, nor will I change it because someone says "take my word for it". My positions are based on what I consider solid arguments. To replace a position, I need a solid argument that defends the new position.

Being demonized by a mob does not count as a solid argument (I was getting that in high school thanks to teachers always looking first to me to answer a question).

Indeed, the more I am demonized, the more solid my argument appears to me (after all, if there was a solid argument opposing my position, why not use it rather than stooping to ad hominems).

I am who I am, thanks to the life I've lived. I wouldn't have wished this on anyone, but it has made me who I am, for better or worse.

 

[CutieMouse]

BL, my apologies if it seems as if I'm hounding the point, I sympathize with the difficulties you've faced today, however i would appreciate a response to this post :

No.

At the time we began this circular discussion, I was in a relationship only a month or so old. I said that he and I did not base that relationship on the concept of "True Love" - instead we based it upon mutual respect, care, affection, communication, etc.

Re: your comment on my views of commitment - I don't believe anything in life is guaranteed. I am with the person I am with for the [healthy] duration of the relationship - meaning 12 years in the case of my marriage, 5 in the case of my first post-divorce relationship, and however long it's been since I met The Man. The only poly relationship I've been in was closed, and with a couple who were (and still are) my best friends. We;d known one another about 6 years before our brief intimate relationship; we've known one another 14 years total, and she and I are still best friends and have shared a house the last 3 years. Do we love one another? Of course! Do we define our friendship as "True Love"? Gracious no!

How are those experiences much different than your relationships as you've outlined, below? Oh that's right - you use the word "Love" and I don't. Somehow that makes your relationships more real or superior or something. (Which, in case you were unaware, is the impression you are leaving - that you feel your relationships are somehow more real or superior than anyone elses.)

Although I may regret the exposure this creates, I will go one step further than I did earlier today and acknowledge that The Man requested we take a few steps back several weeks ago (without significant explanation) - in essence, ending the relationship [although we have stayed friends]. Even without the whole "True Love" thing, it hurt. A lot. Rejection (perceived or otherwise) always hurts. Which means you and I are in similar boats these days.

Again - you use the word "Love"; I don't. Why is your modus operandi somehow better/healthier/whatever than mine?

 

[chy_girl]

In my early 20s I saw a therapist for a time regarding depression.

I was assured that my depression was legitimate, that it wasn't going to go away any time soon, and that I'd have to learn to deal with it on my own.

So I did.

I am never happier than I am in love, and never more broken up than when love is lost.

I have a very strong sense of self, which sustains me when I have to face adversity. I know who I am, why I am who I am, where I want to go with my life. For me there are no cherished beliefs. Any position I take is subject to change as new (and better) information comes along. I have no investment in being wrong, and would rather learn that I am wrong than cling to a position I cannot support.

By the same token, I do not surrender my position for the sake of popularity, nor will I change it because someone says "take my word for it". My positions are based on what I consider solid arguments. To replace a position, I need a solid argument that defends the new position.

Being demonized by a mob does not count as a solid argument (I was getting that in high school thanks to teachers always looking first to me to answer a question).

Indeed, the more I am demonized, the more solid my argument appears to me (after all, if there was a solid argument opposing my position, why not use it rather than stooping to ad hominems).

I am who I am, thanks to the life I've lived. I wouldn't have wished this on anyone, but it has made me who I am, for better or worse.

Have you ever sought support with others who have experienced similar losses though? Or even the support of others who have experienced living in a house with addiction?

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

BL, my apologies if it seems as if I'm hounding the point, I sympathize with the difficulties you've faced today, however i would appreciate a response to this post :



Although I may regret the exposure this creates, I will go one step further than I did earlier today and acknowledge that The Man requested we take a few steps back several weeks ago (without significant explanation) - in essence, ending the relationship [although we have stayed friends]. Even without the whole "True Love" thing, it hurt. A lot. Rejection (perceived or otherwise) always hurts. Which means you and I are in similar boats these days.

Again - you use the word "Love"; I don't. Why is your modus operandi somehow better/healthier/whatever than mine?

Why do you keep trying to have an intelligent and reasonable discussion with him when he has shown over and over that he is just not capable of having one?

You must really be a masochist.

 

[Kikori]

You know, since I've been on a Phoenix Wright spree, I think I'll make my arguments as such... And excuse me if I jump around pages and posts here.

#55

It does appear a genuine discussion is taking place. I look forward to my return.

Objection!

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#1117
(In response to "Good question!")

I notice you've not answered.

Objection!

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#1104

I believe the count is something like 300+ posts from me advocating love and challenging casual advocates to justify the lack of ethics inherent in casual 'bdsm', and 700+ posts from others trying to distract readers from the fact they cannot justify the lack of ethics in casual 'bdsm'. Again, I encourage readers to read the discussion and judge the matter for themselves.

Objection!

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#1265

I'm the exception, in that I recognize that for an insult to have merit, the insulter would have to be someone whose ethics I respect. As none of those who have posted fit that category, insults are like water off a duck's back when it comes to me.

Being intelligent, articulate and having more than a little experience with the victims of casual 'bdsm' I am willing to keep this discussion going for the benefit of those who are unaware of the unethical nature of casual 'bdsm', and the immaturity of players and their advocates. I am sure those who wish to avoid abusive individuals can readily recognize all the red flags and will take the appropriate action.

Objection!!

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#1269

Those who approach in a mature and civil manner can expect the same from me. Those who don't are more likely to be added to my pin-up gallery of typical casual players and their advocates.

Objection!

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EDIT: ... Considering the situation, this one was out of line.
... I apologize. (Though now the PM wont' make as much sense to Bloved.)

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I will now hand down my verdict.

And for the record, I don't know you, Bloved. I have no bias against you one way or the other. While I am sympathetic for any loss you experienced recently with your ex, your behavior on this topic (and elsewhere on this forum) earned my interest and, in the process, my desire to make this post.

 

[BLoved]

BL, my apologies if it seems as if I'm hounding the point, I sympathize with the difficulties you've faced today, however i would appreciate a response to this post :

Before we get to that I apologize for not rsponding sooner. The fact is I didn't see it, or perhaps confused it for something I'd answered earlier. There has been a considerable number of posts directed my way today. Overlooking this one wasn't intentional.

Although I may regret the exposure this creates, I will go one step further than I did earlier today and acknowledge that The Man requested we take a few steps back several weeks ago (without significant explanation) - in essence, ending the relationship [although we have stayed friends]. Even without the whole "True Love" thing, it hurt. A lot. Rejection (perceived or otherwise) always hurts. Which means you and I are in similar boats these days.

And for that you have my sympathy. Some two or three months into my quest I met someone whom I thought was perfect for me, fell deeply in love. It didn't work out, and from her I came to understand the concept I call "cycles of self-destruction".

That was two years ago, give or take. I'd not fallen in love again until the lady who left today.

It may appear I give my heart too easily, but the truth is giving my heart away means a great deal to me, and not something I do on a whim.

Again - you use the word "Love"; I don't. Why is your modus operandi somehow better/healthier/whatever than mine?

I'll add your previous quote, and then address it all:

How are those experiences much different than your relationships as you've outlined, below? Oh that's right - you use the word "Love" and I don't. Somehow that makes your relationships more real or superior or something. (Which, in case you were unaware, is the impression you are leaving - that you feel your relationships are somehow more real or superior than anyone elses.)

First, I don't view my relationships as superior to others. I view all love-based relationships as superior to casual encounters. I choose love-based relationships exclusively because I view them as superior to anything else.

Whether you realize this or not, your refusal to use the word "love" to describe a relationship which you seem to go out of your way to portray as a loving relationship comes across to me as an aversion to the idea of love. It is as if you've had a monstrous experience in what was supposed to be a loving relationship, and as a result swore off anything that involved love.

However, being human, you still feel the need for love, so you compromise. You engage in a loving relationship while refusing to call it "love".

It is this perceived aversion to love that makes me wonder about the true nature of your relationship, which is why I've said what I've said in the past.

If indeed this is merely a matter of labels, then I have to ask why you won't call a loving relationship "love". And if, in truth, you don't feel love, yet you are engaging in intimate behaviour, then you know how I will apply my definitions.

But if you do feel love, and have an aversion to the word, then what can I say about your aversion. Is it indicative of a dysfunctional attitude towards the concept of love, and that by not using the word you can experience love without having to face the dysfunction? A form of denial?

How healthy could that be for you or your beloved?

How would I feel if someone loved me, but refused to say so because of some experience they shared with another? Would it be fair to me, or us, to make me pay for the misdeeds of another?

It doesn't feel fair, and that is where we get into emotional abuse.

Emotional abuse is not always voluntary ... not always the result of some deliberate plan to erode the self-esteem of another.

But it is always unfair. That's how it does its damage.

If I let the 'ick factor' from a previous relationship interfere with a current relationship, I am not being fair to the one I love, and that would mean I'm being emotionally abusive, expecting a current love to tolerate less than she deserves so I don't have to go and face the demons from the previous relationship.

Not fair to her, not fair to us, not healthy for me: emotionally abusive.

That's why I find closure so important, to resolve those demons so I needn't plague the woman I love with my past.

Now I don't know whether you are intimately involved without love, or whether you are intimately involved with someone you love while being unable to admit you love him, but it does not appear to me that either choice is a healthy one for anyone involved.

I hope you understand that in answering you there is a certain 'cringe factor' involved. The last time we went through this was not a pleasant experience, and I'd rather avoid that if possible. Hopefully you've come to realize that I will answer your questions honestly, sincerely, and without malice. Just keep in mind I am not running around saying "CM's relationship is blah blah blah". I am providing my thoughts in direct response to your questions.

I know no other way of addressing them.

 

[BLoved]

Have you ever sought support with others who have experienced similar losses though? Or even the support of others who have experienced living in a house with addiction?

No.

I've offered support and encouragement to those who have suffered a loss, but I've not found anyone who could, or would offer support.

I also must confess, I've not looked for support. I've always been the shoulder others lean on. There are no shoulders for me.

I want to thank you for our exchanges today. It has been a very long time since anyone on a bdsm forum has treated me as a human being, and given me reason to believe he or she is sincerely listening.

You did that today, and it is a rare gift I will not forget.

Forgive me, but this has been one of the longest days I've had to endure in quite some time. Time for bed. I may not sleep, and may return, but if not, thank you for this gift.

 

[chy_girl]

No.

I've offered support and encouragement to those who have suffered a loss, but I've not found anyone who could, or would offer support.

I also must confess, I've not looked for support. I've always been the shoulder others lean on. There are no shoulders for me.

I want to thank you for our exchanges today. It has been a very long time since anyone on a bdsm forum has treated me as a human being, and given me reason to believe he or she is sincerely listening.

You did that today, and it is a rare gift I will not forget.

Forgive me, but this has been one of the longest days I've had to endure in quite some time. Time for bed. I may not sleep, and may return, but if not, thank you for this gift.

You're welcome.

And as someone who is use to being the go-to girl, perhaps finding a group irl or online and allowing yourself the opportunity to not be the strong one will prove enlightening. It certainly was for me.

 

[CutieMouse]

I appreciate the response.

I will, however, continue to nitpick a minor [major] point - just because I do not utilize the phrase "True Love", it does not mean I do not have loving relationships.

The Man and I had reached a place where we regularly (and frequently) would stop and say "You know, I really do like you" - it was a comfortable acknowledgment of the feelings we had for one another, minus the baggage (and expectations) associated with such. I showed my care and happiness through actions, not a specific word; as did he. In a sense, we continue to do so, as we continue to touch one another's lives and show care, concern, humor, friendship, etc for each other when we talk or see one another - even though the lover aspect of our friendship appears to have ended. We have impacted one another's lives, and will each carry that impact forever even though neither of us ever uttered the words "I love you".

My point in pressing the issue, is that regardless of your intent, your approach does come across as if you feel your relationship was somehow superior. In fact, in this response, you again point out that your way (True Love) is superior... do I agree that relationships based on mutual respect, care, concern, etc are healthier? Yes. Do I assume those qualities are only present in relationships defined as being "true love"? No.

For example, I was instantly lumped into the "casual BDSM/abusive/unhealthy" crowd, because I stated that a brand new relationship was based upon respect and getting to know one another, instead of True Love. It was as if a brick wall were instantly erected and I became one of "Them" - which, frankly, pissed me off. I do not attend munches, public play parties, search for monogamous relationships on site like CollarMe, get tied up, or do anything that would compromise my safety any more than driving to work each day. I am actually so slow to engage, that I believe that even though you and I apparently started relationships about the same time, you and your beloved were intimate sooner than The Man and I. Yet I was repeatedly told (given that I was shuttled off to the "casual BDSM" catagory) my behavior was unhealthy, I lacked self-esteem, my relationship was abusive, etc - while your relationship was healthy, pure, non-abusive, more solid, and in every way somehow better than what I was experiencing.

There is an old adage - if the same message is met with the same negative response over and over and over... maybe instead of blaming the audience, one might be better off looking at how the message is being presented. Just a thought.

Before we get to that I apologize for not rsponding sooner. The fact is I didn't see it, or perhaps confused it for something I'd answered earlier. There has been a considerable number of posts directed my way today. Overlooking this one wasn't intentional.

And for that you have my sympathy. Some two or three months into my quest I met someone whom I thought was perfect for me, fell deeply in love. It didn't work out, and from her I came to understand the concept I call "cycles of self-destruction".

That was two years ago, give or take. I'd not fallen in love again until the lady who left today.

It may appear I give my heart too easily, but the truth is giving my heart away means a great deal to me, and not something I do on a whim.

I'll add your previous quote, and then address it all:

First, I don't view my relationships as superior to others. I view all love-based relationships as superior to casual encounters. I choose love-based relationships exclusively because I view them as superior to anything else.

Whether you realize this or not, your refusal to use the word "love" to describe a relationship which you seem to go out of your way to portray as a loving relationship comes across to me as an aversion to the idea of love. It is as if you've had a monstrous experience in what was supposed to be a loving relationship, and as a result swore off anything that involved love.

However, being human, you still feel the need for love, so you compromise. You engage in a loving relationship while refusing to call it "love".

It is this perceived aversion to love that makes me wonder about the true nature of your relationship, which is why I've said what I've said in the past.

If indeed this is merely a matter of labels, then I have to ask why you won't call a loving relationship "love". And if, in truth, you don't feel love, yet you are engaging in intimate behaviour, then you know how I will apply my definitions.

But if you do feel love, and have an aversion to the word, then what can I say about your aversion. Is it indicative of a dysfunctional attitude towards the concept of love, and that by not using the word you can experience love without having to face the dysfunction? A form of denial?

How healthy could that be for you or your beloved?

How would I feel if someone loved me, but refused to say so because of some experience they shared with another? Would it be fair to me, or us, to make me pay for the misdeeds of another?

It doesn't feel fair, and that is where we get into emotional abuse.

Emotional abuse is not always voluntary ... not always the result of some deliberate plan to erode the self-esteem of another.

But it is always unfair. That's how it does its damage.

If I let the 'ick factor' from a previous relationship interfere with a current relationship, I am not being fair to the one I love, and that would mean I'm being emotionally abusive, expecting a current love to tolerate less than she deserves so I don't have to go and face the demons from the previous relationship.

Not fair to her, not fair to us, not healthy for me: emotionally abusive.

That's why I find closure so important, to resolve those demons so I needn't plague the woman I love with my past.

Now I don't know whether you are intimately involved without love, or whether you are intimately involved with someone you love while being unable to admit you love him, but it does not appear to me that either choice is a healthy one for anyone involved.

I hope you understand that in answering you there is a certain 'cringe factor' involved. The last time we went through this was not a pleasant experience, and I'd rather avoid that if possible. Hopefully you've come to realize that I will answer your questions honestly, sincerely, and without malice. Just keep in mind I am not running around saying "CM's relationship is blah blah blah". I am providing my thoughts in direct response to your questions.

I know no other way of addressing them.

 

[Netzach]

This thing fuckin' sucks! Fuck it, we'll do it live! I'll write it myself and we'll do it live!

BWAHAHAHA win.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

At the request of my wife, early in our relationship, I attended a munch and a public party in downtown Toronto. The munch was very clique-ish (no one talked to us). The party was open to anyone who walked in off the street and had the price of admission: no weapons check, no drug or booze check, no sobriety check, nothing.

When was that, year wise? I've gathered that you and your wife were married for some time?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

No.

I've offered support and encouragement to those who have suffered a loss, but I've not found anyone who could, or would offer support.

I also must confess, I've not looked for support. I've always been the shoulder others lean on. There are no shoulders for me.

I want to thank you for our exchanges today. It has been a very long time since anyone on a bdsm forum has treated me as a human being, and given me reason to believe he or she is sincerely listening.

You did that today, and it is a rare gift I will not forget.

Forgive me, but this has been one of the longest days I've had to endure in quite some time. Time for bed. I may not sleep, and may return, but if not, thank you for this gift.

That's a lot for a person to deal with.

I understand it. I'm much better at being the problem solver than I am at letting other people help with mine.

I broke. I wonder if you will one day. A person only has so much capacity for taking on other people's crap at the expense of addressing their own before it becomes too much. And you probably won't get to decide when that happens. I didn't.

Years later, I'm still feeling the effects.

I'll echo chy and say that you should find some people to support you.

 

[RuReal]

One moment here let me get this straight. You are referring to online BDSM for the most part and using it as a paintbrush to colour your world. Not to offend anyone I do understand that there are times in long distance relationships that online is all you have, but online BDSM is very different than BDSM in person. In some ways online can be easier and in others a great deal harder. Any asshole can claim whatever they want to claim online. In fact most people online seem to grow in their own eyes to 10 times their actual size.

I have seen people say all kinds of crap online I have been accused of being various things online. Yes eventually some said they were sorry, but frankly it is online who cares. Online people tend to get very passionate and close their eyes and ears to what others are saying.

Now then let’s move on to your live experience. You went to one Munch I commend you on doing that, but one Munch is really not enough. My first Munch felt like what you described but to be blunt they can be like that. In some cases a great deal of people that attend have not seen each other in a while and use it as time to catch up and talk. I am sure you noticed most of the munch talk was very nilla in nature. Very few BDSM based discussions almost seemed like a large group of friends out for a pub night or something.

Off and on I go to four different munches and the vibe is different at all of them. Some I like more than others. Considering you are talking about Toronto there are more different groups of munches held there than you can shake a stick at. From the top of my head I can think of 6 or more that are run in that city not even going into the surrounding area. If you find a local that does not work for you look elsewhere. This is all part of the course this is not a club where they are looking to recruit people nor a training program. A Munch this is a group of people getting together in a non threatening environment.

Your play party sounds interesting was this at Good Handy`s or something. I have been to a lot of play parties and there is normally a sign in required. There is an event held at a club where there is dancing and such, but the play area is separate from the rest of the group. I have never been to this location I know it is a different vibe I am not into dancing so I have no inclination to go there, but as there are tons of munches there are tons of play parties.

You will not get checked for weapons at any location that I know of. This is not a main stream club where stupidity goes on. Hell at most location there is no drinking at all besides water and soft drinks. People do not play while under the influence it tends to be looked at as being irresponsible. I will be honest I have not attended a typical dance club in years but from my memory there were no weapon checks there as well. What type of world do you live in where that happens everywhere? This is Canada and the crime rates are at a rate that do not dictate such actions are required with the adult population. Hell there are metal detectors in a lot of US High Schools we do not have that in most high schools that I know of here. Does that mean they are irresponsible or does that mean we do not have the level of problem that requires such action. Side not if you are worried about weapons you might not want to attend the next Civil War event that Black and Blue hosts considering the theme is Super Hero’s and villains and supporting casts. There were more than a few swords in appearance not to mention the edge play group that can use knives as part of the play. We carry lots of instruments than can be considered weapons.

As for your experience in Vancouver I cannot quote from my own experience, but that does not seem right. I will ask some friends of mine who recently moved her from Vancouver a couple of months ago. They have been in the BDSM world for a decently long time and have lived in a few different cities including the Vancouver area. I have never heard them mention anything like that and we have gone to different events together since they have moved here. I am not saying it never happened, but I am wondering if you fell into a very odd hole in Vancouver. It is the responsible thing to do research before you go places and I suspect from what you have said here that you have done little research.

I have heard of Collar me I have to say I think I created an account and just did not bother with that site considering it seems to be more of a hook up site than anything else. You get out of something what you put into it.

We are going to an etiquette workshop on Friday I figure it is fun to attend workshops sometimes one learns something sometimes one shares something or they realize they are beyond it. Maybe some workshops would be a good place for you to start as well as trying some of the different Munches to figure things out.

 

[warrior queen]

The more intimate the behaviour, the greater the trust required.

you assume that everyone should see their actions from YOUR point of view.

most do not see 'intimate' behaviour as being synonymous with 'love'.

they are, in fact, two completely separate actions - one involving the physical self, and the other involving the emotional self.

do you not see how these can be completely separated???

(NOTE: i don't expect an answer, as you have completely ignored almost every post i've made on this thread!)

 

[BLoved]

In fact, in this response, you again point out that your way (True Love) is superior...

I've news for you ... True Love has existed for a lot longer than me. It is "my way" in the same way that Democracy is "my way".

It is a way that I find superior to other ways, having compared various ways and having made a choice over which is better than the others.

Trying to turn True Love into "BLoved's way" would be akin to trying to turn Democracy into "BLoved's way".

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem being associated with True Love, just as I have no problem being associated with Democracy. But trying to portray True Love as some kind of subset of ethics which I've invented gives me far too much credit.

I was instantly lumped into the "casual BDSM/abusive/unhealthy" crowd

And here we go again.

You described your relationship as love-less, without commitment.

You asked me to judge whether it fit within my definition for casual 'bdsm'.

You asked me no less than three times before I answered you.

You were not "instantly lumped" into anything.

And you have been crying the blues ever since I answered your question.

As I've said to you before, if you cannot handle an honest answer to your questions, don't ask them, or provide some kind of warning that only certain answers will be found acceptable to you, and anything else will result in you misrepresenting the individual who answered and the manner in which you received that answer.

Let's not do this song and dance again. Time you learned that it is okay to disagree with an answer you've requested, but misrepresentation won't earn you any credit.

There is an old adage - if the same message is met with the same negative response over and over and over... maybe instead of blaming the audience, one might be better off looking at how the message is being presented. Just a thought.

There are some messages that are never going to be accepted by some audiences, no matter how the argument is presented.

Some people are very resistant to change, very antagonistic towards anyone who argues against the status quo. People who enjoy positions of privilege who do not want to see their privileges undermined. People who consider themselves 'authorities' who do not want any other paradigm competing with theirs.

Might as well bay at the moon as to try and convince them that they should be more tolerant of those who disagree.

They are not part of the audience I address.

Certainly I can write a stream of lies that will appeal to them. I am creative enough, and understand what they want to hear enough that I could make myself very popular by kissing their butts and singing their praise and admiring their 'wisdom'.

Flatterers are a dime a dozen, and will say anything if it means they can get ahead.

It takes integrity and courage to stand up and say "But he has nothing on at all".

So who shows the audience more respect: the flatterer who deceives for personal gain, or the man who speaks his truth?

Who will be more popular, the flatterer who says what others want to hear, or the man who speaks a truth no one wants to hear?

 

[TypicalDeviant]

Best post in the history of everything

Holy shit, Kikori, you totally made my day with that; specifically that I can now make my own!

 

[BLoved]

When was that, year wise? I've gathered that you and your wife were married for some time?

She died in 2006. We married in '99. We met in the summer of '95.

If my memory is right, I believe we attended that munch in the summer of '96, and attended the public party a few weeks later.

 

[BLoved]

That's a lot for a person to deal with.

I understand it. I'm much better at being the problem solver than I am at letting other people help with mine.

I broke. I wonder if you will one day.

I did, the day my son died.

I just wanted to die.

Family and friends tried to help, but I was inconsolable.

It was my dogs and cats, their needs that gave me a reason to go on. I realized I couldn't die as long as they needed me.

It took a while to realize that the death of my wife and son wasn't the end of the book. They were the end of a chapter.

I'm now living through the chapter where I quest for True Love again, where I pick myself up, dust myself off, and try to find happiness yet again.

A person only has so much capacity for taking on other people's crap at the expense of addressing their own before it becomes too much. And you probably won't get to decide when that happens. I didn't.

Years later, I'm still feeling the effects.

I'll echo chy and say that you should find some people to support you.

The truth is there is nothing wrong with me that True Love can't cure.

Should I ever be so fortunate as to find a Beloved who will stand by me through thick and thin ... I will have found the person whose support I can depend upon.

 

[BLoved]

One moment here let me get this straight. You are referring to online BDSM for the most part and using it as a paintbrush to colour your world.

That would be incorrect.

I am relying primarily on the testimony of those who were victimized by casual players either through one-night stands or play parties. One of those victimized was my wife, who attended as many parties as she could the year before she met me.

I find their claims are backed up by the statements, behaviour and attitudes of those who claim to be players who post through online forums.

Originally I was tolerant of casual 'bdsm'. It wasn't my thing, but I had no reason to condemn it outright.

It wasn't until I became involved with a victim that I came to realize how much low self-esteem plays a role in casual 'bdsm', and how this leads to what I call cycles of self-destruction where the victim finds it impossible to embrace a healthy, loving relationship.

Through her I learned to recognize the pattern that linked all of the victims I'd known.

Since her I've seen this pattern in others, and have come to recognize how this low self-esteem is exploited by casual players.

Your play party sounds interesting was this at Good Handy`s or something.

It has been a long time, and I do not recall that name. What I do recall is that it was a warehouse-like structure in the heart of downtown, west of Yonge (and for some reason I seem to recall it was on Bloor, but I could be mistaken about that).

You will not get checked for weapons at any location that I know of. This is not a main stream club where stupidity goes on. Hell at most location there is no drinking at all besides water and soft drinks. People do not play while under the influence it tends to be looked at as being irresponsible.

As anyone could walk in, and the vast majority were male spectators (over 200 people at the event I saw) anyone could have been drunk, stoned, brought weapons, drugs, booze etc.

This was not "by invitation only". More like what you'd expect at a bar.

What type of world do you live in where that happens everywhere? This is Canada and the crime rates are at a rate that do not dictate such actions are required with the adult population.

I think you are missing my point:

Public Play Parties

The public parties are usually money-making in nature. A hall is rented, tickets are sold, anyone walking by along the street can get in for the price of admission.

Depending on the size of the hall, attendance can reach the hundreds.

Nearly all will be male.

Stages are erected for the purposes of displaying the talents of the domly types on submissives. Think of it as an erotic performance, with restraints.

Anyone can submit, as long as they can find someone with toys to dom them.

It is important to notice just how safe this is for a female submissive being invited to perform.

Keep in mind the submissive will be restrained, and thus unable to do anything to protect herself.

Anyone can enter the premises.

No weapons or bottle check is made. No sobriety check is made. Those who come in can be high on anything, and packing anything.

All they need is the price of admission.

It is most likely the event itself is illegal. If busted there will likely be charges. If someone with kids is charged, Social Services may get involved.

For this reason it will be with the greatest of reluctance paramedics would be called in the event of an emergency.

The police with even more reluctance.

True, there are Dungeon Monitors, volunteers who are to keep the peace.

But how much of themselves are they willing to risk for the sake of others if they are not even performing a weapons check at the door to protect themselves?

I've always said it is the little things that count the most. I pay attention to the little details like this that add up to a bigger picture.

The Dungeon Monitors are a bluff. If they were serious about safety, they'd check for weapons and drugs and booze and needles and ... you get my drift.

If anyone can walk in off the street a street gang could walk in off the street.

Even without the street gang, the mob of men themselves could turn on others, in frustration or machismo or whatever.

There are never going to be enough monitors to control such a crowd if it got out of control, and considering what the female submissives are 'advertising' merely by being there, this is not a situation you ever want getting out of control.

So ... why are there no weapons checks?

-- Excerpt from "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love"

 

[BLoved]

you assume that everyone should see their actions from YOUR point of view.

No. I assume that should anyone choose to read my words, they will make up their own minds over whether I present a valid argument or not.

do you not see how these can be completely separated???

I do.

I just don't consider that to be a healthy choice, emotionally or physically.

I've provided several reasons for this position, an increased risk of being abused, physically and/or emotionally, an increased risk of contracting a disease, and 30,000+ years of human evolution hard-wiring intimate behaviour with intimate emotional bonding so as to form sustainable families.