The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[Etoile]

The person involved in casual 'bdsm' is suffering from such a degree of low self-esteem that they crave attention any way they can get it, including acts of self-destruction.

They are risking their lives for endorphins and orgasms. In what way is that different from a heroin junkie doing tricks for more heroin?

But they like it.

I'm not going to stop somebody from doing what they like, whether it's kink or heroin or anything else.

They tend to get angry when you do that.

 

[BLoved]

But they like it.

I'm not going to stop somebody from doing what they like, whether it's kink or heroin or anything else.

They tend to get angry when you do that.

And you will notice I am not trying to stop anyone who has participated in this discussion from doing what they are doing.

That doesn't stop me from informing those who are not yet heroin junkies of the consequences should they decide to develop the habit.

 

[WriterDom]

And I'd warn anyone about making a lifetime commitment to another after three weeks. It's a little, retarded.

 

[Etoile]

And you will notice I am not trying to stop anyone who has participated in this discussion from doing what they are doing.

That doesn't stop me from informing those who are not yet heroin junkies of the consequences should they decide to develop the habit.

So you're talking to the lurkers, right? Those who are reading but not posting? I think that's what you've said before.

Then why do you persist in the debate with people who disagree with you? You've said what you have to say, but it keeps going round and round. Why not just make all your text size 5 and bright red, and leave it at that?

 

[BLoved]

So you're talking to the lurkers, right? Those who are reading but not posting? I think that's what you've said before.

Then why do you persist in the debate with people who disagree with you? You've said what you have to say, but it keeps going round and round. Why not just make all your text size 5 and bright red, and leave it at that?

~smile~

The advocates of casual 'bdsm' continue to offer up examples of the dysfunctional behaviour which makes casual 'bdsm' unsafe.

Their immaturity, impatience and lack of self-restraint in public is one of my best arguments against the casual 'bdsm' paradigm.

 

[BLoved]

Is this thread still going?

This is the beginning of the fourth week, and the discussion is still lively.

 

[chy_girl]

If the abuser thought the victim worthy of love, wouldn't the abuser choose to love the victim rather than abuse the victim?

The only thing the abuser is showing the victim is that in the eyes of the abuser, the victim is only worthy of being beaten.

In what way does that differ when it comes to casual 'bdsm'?

*rolls eyes and sighs*

Dude. Read the NAMBLA site. They Love children. Just ask them.

Or go sit through a few juvenile court hearings where the kids are in the custody of the state because their parents beat them bad enough to put them in the hospital. The parents will say, under oath, that they Love their children and they mean it.

We had incident about 5 years back where a man had his estranged wife and kids held at gunpoint in her new apartment. The kids managed to sneak out, but he ended up shooting his wife and himself because he Loved her too much to live without her. He told that to the police just before the shots were fired. He also said that in the letter he left behind.

And other research may have came out since I was in college, but 10 years ago the research indicated that one of the factors behind domestic violence was not lack of Love, but an over developed and excessive self-esteem in the abuser.

Hmmm, over developed and excessive self-esteem... There's a thought.

 

[midwestyankee]

Last I heard, even submissives have free will. That they choose what you would not is their business, and not yours. Get over it.

And most rational people can't stomach folks with savior complexes. Just saying.

 

[BLoved]

*rolls eyes and sighs*

Dude. Read the NAMBLA site. They Love children. Just ask them.

Or go sit through a few juvenile court hearings where the kids are in the custody of the state because their parents beat them bad enough to put them in the hospital. The parents will say, under oath, that they Love their children and they mean it.

We had incident about 5 years back where a man had his estranged wife and kids held at gunpoint in her new apartment. The kids managed to sneak out, but he ended up shooting his wife and himself because he Loved her too much to live without her. He told that to the police just before the shots were fired. He also said that in the letter he left behind.

And other research may have came out since I was in college, but 10 years ago the research indicated that one of the factors behind domestic violence was not lack of Love, but an over developed and excessive self-esteem in the abuser.

Hmmm, over developed and excessive self-esteem... There's a thought.

Not surprising, I suppose, to see how many who advocate casual 'bdsm' also link "Love" with "Abuse".

Yet more evidence of a dysfunctional attitude towards love.

Living with Trauma: Cycles of Self-Destruction

As was described in the previous section, past abuse can predispose a submissive to accept more abuse.

This is not inevitable. Love has a healing quality when it comes to abuse.

Whether the love of one person can heal the abuse suffered by another very much depends on the individuals and the degree to which Love and Fear motivates them.

But there is no cure for abuse but Love.

Love helps to restore self-respect.

Love provides a solid foundation from which one can determine what is real, what is flattery, and what is delusion.

Love does not deceive.

But for those who do not find love, and for those combinations of people where the love of one was insufficient to overcome the fears of the abused, there continues this diminished sense of self-respect.

In their need for relief, they seek solace in the arms of others. But in allowing themselves to be used for the sake of the illusion of being desired they further undermine their self-respect.

Some, convinced they are not doing enough to be desirable, seek to go further, casting off limits if need be, ignoring safety concerns and pushing themselves to the brink of extinction, emotionally if not physically as well.

It is a vicious cycle which, if not stopped, eventually leaves the submissive incapable of accepting love, pushing away anything that looks like love.

After so much abuse, she simply no longer believes in it, or no longer believes herself worthy of it.

She may well go to the extreme of only seeking out situations where there is no chance of Love entering her world.

Jaded and calloused, she may even join in the abuse of others.

After so much abuse, the ability to relate to the feelings of others grows numb.

Just as it does for the domly types who abuse others.

 

[BLoved]

And most rational people can't stomach folks with savior complexes. Just saying.

~smile~

A little gutless of you to imply I have a saviour complex without actually making the accusation, don't you think?

 

[Stella_Omega]

~smile~

A little gutless of you to imply I have a saviour complex without actually making the accusation, don't you think?

You have a savior complex.

Big whoop.

 

[FloggingMolly]

You have a savior complex.

Big whoop.

Agreed.

What I'd like to know is if you were always this obsessed, or if it happened since meeting someone 'damaged'

 

[BLoved]

What I'd like to know is if you were always this obsessed, or if it happened since meeting someone 'damaged'

We did not achieve over 1000 posts to this discussion because of any obsession I might have.

 

[Homburg]

In the claim it is "safe and sane" outside of a loving, committed relationship.

What is inherently unsafe about a mutually agreeable spanking?

What is inherently non-sane about a mutually agreeable spanking?

Anyone who believes another is good enough to beat, but not good enough to love is attacking the self-esteem of their victim, just as anyone who believes he or she is good enough to be beaten, but not good enough to be loved is attacking his or her own self-esteem.

The only difference between abuse and BDSM is love, respect, honesty, loyalty, committment.

Idiotic. Many abusers are in long-term relationships with their victims, and are committed to that relationship. And contrary to your utterly fallacious idea that 'love' and 'abuse' are somehow contradictory, many abusers love their victims. See the child abuse example above.

And try again, tell me where there is deceit in "I want to spank you." You are claiming it is dishonest and deceitful, yet you've failed to support that accusation.

--

As we have seen in this discussion, manipulation and deceit are easily detected online, if one is paying attention.

You are a fool if you believe that it is "easily" detected. If it were so "easy" we would see less people being scammed.

Or the reader can read this discussion and see why I was banned anywhere the mob had the power to censor me.

Produce proof.

Casual players are not eager to see novices informed of the risks they run participating in the casual scene, and the players are certainly not eager for novices to learn more about the dysfunctional nature of casual players and their advocates.

Idiotic. Read these boards and you will see countless warnings against predatory behaviour.

Their immaturity does not recommend their paradigm.

Straw Man.

Goat-fucker.

"References" is a code word for casual players: 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours'.

You've been to one munch. Ever. You have no point of reference and are making shit up.

I've personally given bad references, and have flat outed a few truly egregious assholes.

And whereas the person online is looking for a beloved, and their behaviour will (or will not) reflect this, the person at the munch isn't looking for anything but a cheap thrill.

The fuck? How in the hell can you even make such a statement? All internet players are looking for lifelong commitment, but all munch attendees are looking for a quick fuck? You believe this tripe?

In other words, the person at the munch can afford to be superficial

Because, as we know, NO ONE lies in the Intarwebz.

The person involved in casual 'bdsm' is suffering from such a degree of low self-esteem that they crave attention any way they can get it, including acts of self-destruction.

You know this first-hand from your one whole munch, right? You can back up these sweeping generalisations with... with...

No, wait, you can't. It's more bullshit.

They are risking their lives for endorphins and orgasms. In what way is that different from a heroin junkie doing tricks for more heroin?

Endorphins and orgasms won't kill the person.

 

[intothewoods]

I need to take my own advice.

We all do.

~smile~

No one is perfect.

Exactly. You've ranted about the treatment you've received, but you've been rude and immature to plenty on this thread. No one is perfect.

As WD said, "Dead is forever".

If you're going to risk your life, will it be over a no-strings-attached encounter, or love?

Which reflects greater self-esteem: risking your life for a one night stand, or risking your life to find True Love.

And which of these two scenarios is more likely to produce a life-threatening experience: the no-strings-attached one night stand, or finding your True Love.

Risking your life to find love or a one night stand does not reflect a healthy sense of self-esteem. I don't think the act of finding love should require that much risk!

As a parent, I can't risk my life to find love. It's not responsible. It wasn't an option. My decision to marry my husband was one I am just pleased as punch with. Love is so many things, but the decision to marry involves rational thought, negotiation, information and time, in addition to all those amazing feelings. Not to mention a good sense of self, boundaries, communication skills...All of that is healthy self-esteem.

And while we're on the topic, while I agree that endless nsa encounters aren't particularly rewarding, if a single one night stand, no strings attached, leaves a person feeling as though she has been violently raped, that person does not have a healthy sense of self-esteem. I would assume a history of abuse, and would sincerely hope that they spend some time in therapy prior to entering into a longterm relationship.

The motive behind looking for someone is not significant in terms of the level of risk involved in your activity. Letting anyone you don't know put their hands and toys on/in your body is a huge risk. You should get to know that person first. And they could still fuck up. Hey, my husband accidentally poured wax that was too hot on me once. Not for a lack of love for me! He just grabbed the wrong damn candle.

After this whole thread, you have still not offered anything to prove that casual sex and/or casual s&m are damaging and dysfuctional in and of themselves, separate and apart from whether there is love in a person's life. Most people seek out love. Check. Most people pair bond. Check. But people in love sometimes beat other people. People in love sometimes fuck other people. Those other people are good enough for love, they're just not in love with everyone that they fuck or beat/let beat them. And you can still look for love and find love while you have the occasional casual encounter. If you want! If it's not rewarding, then don't do it. If it's emotionally damaging, good grief do not do it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

We did not achieve over 1000 posts to this discussion because of any obsession I might have.

Check this out;
http://forum.literotica.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=703401

You have made over 300 posts to this thread. Is that not obsessive?

Etoile and i have the next highest counts, each of us over 60 posts.

Almost every one of mine, at least, has been predicated on the obsessive nature of your conversation.

 

[Netzach]

And I'd warn anyone about making a lifetime commitment to another after three weeks. It's a little, retarded.

Post gold. Thread over.

 

[BLoved]

Exactly. You've ranted about the treatment you've received, but you've been rude and immature to plenty on this thread. No one is perfect.

~smile~

Acknowledging that the use of the term "Hot Pants" when referring to WriterDom might not be very respectful is hardly the same as the ongoing character assasination conducted by my adversaries that has filled the pages of this discussion.

Risking your life to find love or a one night stand does not reflect a healthy sense of self-esteem. I don't think the act of finding love should require that much risk!

If you are going to involve bdsm at some point the submissive is likely to be bound helpless.

Each time anyone is helpless they are risking their life. As WD put it: "Your online "beloved" could bury you in a 55 gallon drum just as easy as a causal player you met at a munch."

As a parent, I can't risk my life to find love. It's not responsible. It wasn't an option. My decision to marry my husband was one I am just pleased as punch with. Love is so many things, but the decision to marry involves rational thought, negotiation, information and time, in addition to all those amazing feelings. Not to mention a good sense of self, boundaries, communication skills...All of that is healthy self-esteem.

I would say as a parent you are not at liberty to risk your life for any reason.

And while we're on the topic, while I agree that endless nsa encounters aren't particularly rewarding, if a single one night stand, no strings attached, leaves a person feeling as though she has been violently raped, that person does not have a healthy sense of self-esteem. I would assume a history of abuse, and would sincerely hope that they spend some time in therapy prior to entering into a longterm relationship.

So if a person is lured into an nsa one night stand through deception and/or misinformation it is the victim who needs therapy, not the victimizer?

After this whole thread, you have still not offered anything to prove that casual sex and/or casual s&m are damaging and dysfuctional in and of themselves

I think the behaviour of my adversaries is more than ample evidence of the kinds of dysfunctions I've described throughout this discussion.

But people in love sometimes beat other people. People in love sometimes fuck other people. Those other people are good enough for love, they're just not in love with everyone that they fuck or beat/let beat them.

And therein is the dysfunction.

If it's not rewarding, then don't do it. If it's emotionally damaging, good grief do not do it.

It is a little late to avoid abuse if you have to wait to be abused first to realize the dysfunctional nature of casual 'bdsm'.

Nothing wrong with providing a heads up for those who would prefer not to be abused.

The problem is casual players and their advocates don't want novices to be warned ahead of time. They prefer to abuse their victims and then blame their victims for the abuse.

And as long as they control the media such that no one can explain to the victims what is really going on, they can continue to ambush victims as long as they wish.

Casual players are in control of the forums at collarme, bondage.com and mydungeonspace. They control all of the major groups at fetlife, and it is obvious from this discussion what they are capable of here.

 

[LaRocha]

Three weeks is dishonest. I think he's four to four and a half weeks into his lifetime commitment by now.

 

[Etoile]

We did not achieve over 1000 posts to this discussion because of any obsession I might have.

You must have an obsession with hearing yourself talk, at least, or we'd have been done with this long ago.

 

[Etoile]

Check this out;
http://forum.literotica.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=703401

You have made over 300 posts to this thread. Is that not obsessive?

Etoile and i have the next highest counts, each of us over 60 posts.

Almost every one of mine, at least, has been predicated on the obsessive nature of your conversation.

Whoa dude, that is a bad-ass little tool that I was not previously aware of. I thought WD actually counted every post.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Three weeks is dishonest. I think he's four to four and a half weeks into his lifetime commitment by now.

Yeah, Doodles deserves that much credit at least.

Whoa dude, that is a bad-ass little tool that I was not previously aware of. I thought WD actually counted every post.

You reach it by clicking on the replies count from the forum main page

 

[Etoile]

Casual players are in control of the forums at collarme, bondage.com and mydungeonspace. They control all of the major groups at fetlife, and it is obvious from this discussion what they are capable of here.

I'm still not sure who "they" are. Okay, the pronoun "they" refers to the noun "casual players" but I still don't get what that is. How can people in 24/7 relationships, like some of those who have posted here, be "casual" about it?

As for me, I know for sure I'm not a "casual player" because my only relationship right now is vanilla. And I love it.

 

[BLoved]

Check this out;
http://forum.literotica.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=703401

You have made over 300 posts to this thread. Is that not obsessive?

Considering I not only started this thread, but I am also the only advocate for Love in this discussion, I find the number quite understandable.

All of the posts by others are either directed at me, or are about me.

I don't think I've seen anyone actually attempt to describe the 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm', let alone explain them.

So how obsessive does that make my adversaries, that there are 700 posts from them and none of them on-topic?

 

[BLoved]

You must have an obsession with hearing yourself talk, at least, or we'd have been done with this long ago.

~smile~

No one is forcing you to post.