Grammer conundrum, requesting help :o

[Sengoku]

Grammar conundrum, requesting help

Hey, I got a question that's been bugging me for days and i hoped that someone here could answer it.

Ok here goes, first i'll like to show you two sentences

(A) “That’s the kinda crazy I like," Björn grinned.

(B) “That’s the kinda crazy I like,” Bjorn said.

Now, i'd like to know if A is grammatically wrong or if B is right, or both are wrong or both are right. Is the placement of the word 'said' always the name first and then 'said'? e.g, Mike said or said Mike? Because to me, B looks unnatural while A may be grammatically wrong, but looks better to me. You can tell I'm a tad confused, I hope someone helps me.

 

[CopyCarver]

Hey, I got a question that's been bugging me for days and i hoped that someone here could answer it.

Ok here goes, first i'll like to show you two sentences

(A) “That’s the kinda crazy I like," Björn grinned.

(B) “That’s the kinda crazy I like,” Bjorn said.

Now, i'd like to know if A is grammatically wrong or if B is right, or both are wrong or both are right. Is the placement of the word 'said' always the name first and then 'said'? e.g, Mike said or said Mike? Because to me, B looks unnatural while A may be grammatically wrong, but looks better to me. You can tell I'm a tad confused, I hope someone helps me.

Neither A nor B is truly wrong. Grammar fanatics might point out that, technically speaking, one cannot grin words, so B is grammatically preferable. Still, neither is incorrect usage, especially in informal writing.

Similarly, both "Mike said" and "said Mike" are correct. The choice is largely one of preference; sometimes writers will shift back and forth, just to break up the monotony of too many "Mike saids."

Under some circumstances, no attribution at all is needed. If there are only two parties in a conversation, and if one was recently identified, the reader can infer the voice of the current dialogue. Too, it's often possible to include some inconsequential action in the narrative that identifies the speaker - e.g, a character could drink a sip of coffee or sneeze or whatever may be appropriate, not because that action advances the plot but merely to tell the reader that Mike or Bjorn or whomever is the speaker. This ploy should always be used sparingly, but it does a decent job of breaking up too many "he saids" and "she saids."


ps: It's grammar, not grammer

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not sure it fits under grammar, but A is, indeed, awkward, because "grinned" doesn't fit as a voiced slug. You don't voice a "grin." It does also get awkward to have a series of "said as he [whatever]" slugs too. "Said" is pushed as a choice mainly because it's so common the reader just reads right through it, whereas the reader might stop (and you don't want the reader to stop in places that make no difference) if you use a questionable construction.

B is only incorrect because it omits the umlaut over the o in Björn, (he grinned).

 

[Sengoku]

Thank you so much you two. This really helps clear some things up for me. Now I'm embarrassed about the title, it could be one of those oxymoron things.

I changed the line to: Björn grinned and nodded, “That’s the kinda crazy I like.” Not sure that's right either, but I'll gladly take the criticism.

 

[Firebrain]

You could have:

"That's the kinda crazy I like." Bjorn grinned.

After all, nobody says you have to have a dialogue tag at all.

 

[sr71plt]

You could have:

"That's the kinda crazy I like." Bjorn grinned.

After all, nobody says you have to have a dialogue tag at all.

Yep that one works fine--as long as it's clear from the context who spoke it. Once you get more than two in a conversation, the road mapping has to be done carefully.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Yep that one works fine--as long as it's clear from the context who spoke it. Once you get more than two in a conversation, the road mapping has to be done carefully.

I will share my thoughts, which serve to express only my personal preference as a writer. This having been shared, allow me to voice my dislike of repeated use of "said". This is an opportunity to share with the reader emotion, which "said" simply does not convey.

An example:

"I like you," Suzi said.

Bill said, "I like you too."

A better example (IMHO):

"I like you," Suzi admitted with a cute smile, her face reddening with mild embarrassment as she overcame her natural shyness.

After glancing nervously away Bill's eyes returned to her as he responded, "I like you too."

Just a simple example, but this conveys my reading/writing preferences.

 

[sr71plt]

I will share my thoughts, which serve to express only my personal preference as a writer. This having been shared, allow me to voice my dislike of repeated use of "said". This is an opportunity to share with the reader emotion, which "said" simply does not convey.

An example:

"I like you," Suzi said.

Bill said, "I like you too."

A better example (IMHO):

"I like you," Suzi admitted with a cute smile, her face reddening with mild embarrassment as she overcame her natural shyness.

After glancing nervously away Bill's eyes returned to her as he responded, "I like you too."

Just a simple example, but this conveys my reading/writing preferences.

I agree, anything repeated to the point of intrusion into the story needs to be changed. It isn't easy. That's why I consider writing an art. Context is important. That's what brings into question any "hard and fast" rule in creative writing.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I agree, anything repeated to the point of intrusion into the story needs to be changed. It isn't easy. That's why I consider writing an art. Context is important. That's what brings into question any "hard and fast" rule in creative writing.

I was actually quite surprised/disappointed when I purchased and read Steven King's novel, "Cellular". The overuse of "said" really detracted from what was otherwise a good story. Hadn't noticed this in other novels of his, but then I have become more aware of these things recently.

Writing one's own stories brings to light the styles of others.

 

[Sengoku]

Just wanna say, I learned alot from this thread, so thank you all for posting. I have a similar question which no one needs to respond to, because you all done enough already, but il ask anyone. First I'll post the example:

She put her seatbelt on and adjusted her front mirror. “There are some magazines there, you can look through those.”

Is this grammatically correct? With no 'said' or dialogue tags.

 

[sr71plt]

Just wanna say, I learned alot from this thread, so thank you all for posting. I have a similar question which no one needs to respond to, because you all done enough already, but il ask anyone. First I'll post the example:

She put her seatbelt on and adjusted her front mirror. “There are some magazines there, you can look through those.”

Is this grammatically correct? With no 'said' or dialogue tags.

It's grammatically correct except for that comma in the quote separating two independent clauses. You could just change the comma to a semicolon and you'd be OK.

 

[Firebrain]

I will share my thoughts, which serve to express only my personal preference as a writer. This having been shared, allow me to voice my dislike of repeated use of "said". This is an opportunity to share with the reader emotion, which "said" simply does not convey.

An example:

"I like you," Suzi said.

Bill said, "I like you too."

A better example (IMHO):

"I like you," Suzi admitted with a cute smile, her face reddening with mild embarrassment as she overcame her natural shyness.

After glancing nervously away Bill's eyes returned to her as he responded, "I like you too."

Just a simple example, but this conveys my reading/writing preferences.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on both points there.

On dialogue in general - why do we go to such pains to point out that somebody's saying something? The speech marks do that for us already. Words like "responded" are redundant because they point out the obvious. Our job as writers isn't to tell readers that somebody is talking, but who is talking. Then we add any other relevant info such as whether they smiled or scratched their chin, or walked backwards into a lorry.

Nothing annoys me more than blatant boycotting of "said." E.g.

"What are you doing today?" she asked. We know she's asking something - there's a question mark. Let's not be lazy. Let's have She twisted her hair around her finger, her mouth twitching into a coy smile.

"Not a fat lot," he sighed, shrugging. Does he need to sigh and shrug? No. It's overkill. They both convey a similar sentiment. Let's just let him sigh. "Bored to tears, actually."

"How about we do lunch somewhere?" she suggested. Suggest, ask, all the same thing. Somebody's been using a thesaurus! There are only two people in this conversation; why does this need a dialogue tag at all?

"That's just crazy talk. What if somebody sees us?" he gasped loudly. Fuck off, adverbs! Fuck off already! Ahh, that's better. "They might think we're...together."

Sure, nobody wants to read the word "said" over and over. There are ways of getting around it, though, without these yawn-worthy tactics. A million other words that just mean "said" in a roundabout fashion are not the answer - not for every flipping line of speech!

 

[sr71plt]

I was actually quite surprised/disappointed when I purchased and read Steven King's novel, "Cellular". The overuse of "said" really detracted from what was otherwise a good story. Hadn't noticed this in other novels of his, but then I have become more aware of these things recently.

Writing one's own stories brings to light the styles of others.

Stephen King (like Tom Clancy) won't accept much line editing anymore--so his prose delivery has deteriorated.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on both points there.

On dialogue in general - why do we go to such pains to point out that somebody's saying something? The speech marks do that for us already. Words like "responded" are redundant because they point out the obvious. Our job as writers isn't to tell readers that somebody is talking, but who is talking. Then we add any other relevant info such as whether they smiled or scratched their chin, or walked backwards into a lorry.

Nothing annoys me more than blatant boycotting of "said." E.g.

"What are you doing today?" she asked. We know she's asking something - there's a question mark. Let's not be lazy. Let's have She twisted her hair around her finger, her mouth twitching into a coy smile.

"Not a fat lot," he sighed, shrugging. Does he need to sigh and shrug? No. It's overkill. They both convey a similar sentiment. Let's just let him sigh. "Bored to tears, actually."

"How about we do lunch somewhere?" she suggested. Suggest, ask, all the same thing. Somebody's been using a thesaurus! There are only two people in this conversation; why does this need a dialogue tag at all?

"That's just crazy talk. What if somebody sees us?" he gasped loudly. Fuck off, adverbs! Fuck off already! Ahh, that's better. "They might think we're...together."

Sure, nobody wants to read the word "said" over and over. There are ways of getting around it, though, without these yawn-worthy tactics. A million other words that just mean "said" in a roundabout fashion are not the answer - not for every flipping line of speech!

We will have to agree to disagree, I say. After all, having said this, nothing will be changed on account of this, or so I say. Just saying.

 

[Firebrain]

We will have to agree to disagree, I say. After all, having said this, nothing will be changed on account of this, or so I say. Just saying.

Or so he said

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Thank you so much you two. This really helps clear some things up for me. Now I'm embarrassed about the title, it could be one of those oxymoron things.

I changed the line to: Björn grinned and nodded, “That’s the kinda crazy I like.” Not sure that's right either, but I'll gladly take the criticism.

In my opinion, one cannot grin and nod and say anything. But this is Lit after all. What I would recommend to a writer would - the only change being a period - be:

Björn grinned and nodded. “That’s the kinda crazy I like.”

Yet this is a very minor issue. Accolades to you for caring so much as a writer as to ask in this forum for our opinions (at times varied). Keep asking, you will learn, as I have.

Thank you for initiating this thread.

 

[Sengoku]

In my opinion, one cannot grin and nod and say anything. But this is Lit after all. What I would recommend to a writer would - the only change being a period - be:

Björn grinned and nodded. “That’s the kinda crazy I like.”

Yet this is a very minor issue. Accolades to you for caring so much as a writer as to ask in this forum for our opinions (at times varied). Keep asking, you will learn, as I have.

Thank you for initiating this thread.

Thank you for responding to my questions.