The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[BLoved]

Does Bloved's girlfriend know that she is bound to him forever and ever?

That actually rings a warning bell in my mind.

I will let my beloved answer:

A warning bell? how so?
I love Robert with all of my heart. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of us.
Robert saved me from my Ex-Master, who was a casual player.
My ex left many scars and he brought my self esteem down, to the point where i hated myself, and i looked wherever i could for reconigtion that whatever i did was good.

With Robert everything has changed.
I never thought i could love someone. Even my parents didn't love me the way Robert loves me.
I moved out when i was 15, because my dads a drunk and my mom is abusive. the two of them together was the worst abuse i have ever taken on. Constant harrassment, insults, beatings, slavery, etc. I will not get into much detail about this because it is still hard to go through.
They basically had their thumb on me for most of my life, and i am starting to learn to break through it.

Love can concour many obsticals. I have found that with Robert, i am not so much afraid of my parents as i once was. My ex master contacted me the other day and of course he wanted to use me. He expected me to come with him to a play party. The last time i went to a play party with him, was my first time. And i will never do it again.
I was pushed into doing many things that i didn't want to do.

So to be bound forever and ever with Robert would make me the happiest Sub in the world.
I don't have to be forced into anything with him. We take things slow, and i show my love sexually by asking for more and growing from my experience. I also show my love with the other little things i do. Which if you read Roberts writings on the little things you would know what i mean.

I don't want to be someone's 'bitch' i want to be someones 'love'.

Robert and I are quite happy knowing that our hearts have found eachother in this crazy world of BDSM.
So for you question, 'do i know that i am bound to Robert forever and ever?'
Yes i do because i want to be, just as much as he wants to be bound to my love.

 

[rida]

And isn't that the issue? Is the individual making such decisions based on their pre-disposition towards abuse due to past abuse, or is the individual making a rational choice free from any past influence?

How much concern will the casual player show towards finding an objective answer to this question, and how likely is the player to assume there is no history because such an assumption serves his or her purpose to find a partner for a no-strings attached one-night stand?

Again, people that have no concern for the well being of someone else are not a monopoly of the BDSM community, nor of the casual sex one.

Nobody can really know what motivates another person's actions, desires or behavior but that person him(her)self. But because of the "deviant" (according to mainstream) nature of BDSM desires and inclinations, I'm finding that most people have questioned at least once their motives for "liking" or "needing" something so "perverted" (still according to mainstream).

People with history of past abuse come and are in all walk of life. I've no evidence for claiming that all people with masochistic or Sadistic, or Dominant, or submissive inclinations are such do to their past abuse. But there are people that indeed have abuse in their past. Nobody denies it.

However I've read time and again the statement and advice that "BDSM is no substitute for therapy". And I've read time and again, on both the PYL and pyl side of people that would not "play" (that is have a casual BDSM interaction or relationship) with people with mental illnesses or history of abuse.

Which risks are you speaking of? Risks to life and limb? Risks to one's self-esteem? Risks of emotional abuse?

All of them.

My starting point is mature adult that behave in a mature way.
If you know yourself and your own weaknesses and triggers, if you know what you want and what the risk involved are, you can asses the partner, the situation and decide for yourself if the risk (because there is nothing risk free in life) is something you are willing to take.

You have not demonstrated how the casual players rule out low self-esteem as a cause for someone who agrees to such behaviour.

Most of the people that have posted here have told you that they know their casual play partner well before engaging in any activity. That means that on both sides there has been communication, and a getting to know each other phase. It can be short, it can be long. But with such communication, and assuming again we are dealing with mature adult, honesty would be paramount and any underlying issue laid on the table.

There are cases indeed where the person him(her)self is not aware of their own motivations or issues. You cannot fault than the other side for not knowing. However, in the course of communication, if something is really off, chances are that the other party is going to pick up on the vibe.

If they decide to continue with play anyway, it can be indeed because they are predators. But it can also be that they are just naive and do not think it is a big deal. Or, the most common instance, they believe that they are dealing with a mature adult person and let them decide for themselves.

And the person who agrees to the behaviour I described is addicted to self-destructive behaviour as a result of low self-esteem. In what way is it ethical for a casual player to take advantage of someone's dysfunctional low self-esteem?

I think is a presumptuous of you to assume that each and every person that enjoy NSA sex or BDSM play is "addicted to self-destructive behaviour as a result of low self-esteem".

I do not have low self-esteem. I do enjoy NSA sex, even group sex with strangers (in introduction only members only clubs). And it does not destroy my self-esteem. It is an activity I enjoy, a "sport" if you will. Hence I call the sex in such situation "sport fuck".

Now for your question "In what way is it ethical for a casual player to take advantage of someone's dysfunctional low self-esteem?" I'm going to expand in the fact that it is never ethical to take advantage of someone period.

However agreeing to take part of casual play with someone with low self-esteem does not necessarily belong to the "taking advantage" situation, as the whole situation might have been negotiated as a way for the party with low self-esteem to gather a better one, and for the party that plays to help out with it.

Strange at it might seem to you, there are people who do get their self-esteem validated by being desired. Even if it is negotiated and planned and for a limited time. You do not believe it is possible and as such you view it as abuse and unhealthy. I don't, and we disagree.

In what way is it ethical for a casual player to ignore the symptoms of low self-esteem just to get another victim into the dungeon?

Nobody is going to say that it is ethical to take advantage of someone to lure them into a situation they would not put themselves in otherwise.

But not all casual players are abusive scumbag with a predatory agenda as you are trying to paint them. Honestly, where do you hang out if all the people you have met or dealt with are such low-life? Or is it you that is riding on the "better than thou" horse and believe that anybody that do not agree with you 100% must be a predator with no heart and soul?

In a strict sense, one can never be "100% sure" of what the other feels. That would require telepathy.

I trust her to be honest with me. Her deeds are consistent with her words.

And that is exactly what the casual community (or everybody in any kind of relationship) does to asses the other party.

Having felt true love for another, I am in a position to know whether I am feeling that love again or not.

Good for you. But you are in NO position to asses love, or lack of thereof, or healthiness of any other level of emotional involvement for the rest of humanity. As you seem to believe you can with your simple "True Love" test.

You are risking life and limb to offer yourself to people you know have no compelling reason to live up to your trust/expectations. They know as you know that whatever arrangements you work out are transient and that there is no future for the two of you, so why should they feel compelled to live up to your expectations when this is their one and only chance to get what they want?

Honestly, do you live in such a sad world where everybody is out to get everybody else? Where nobody feels any accountability or responsibility for their fellow human beings?

I rather believe that people are honest and good. I would not trust every passing Joe on the spot, but I believe that you can figure out a person by chatting with them. Of course, the truly good predators are going to be much harder to weed out. Hence the "security rules" hammered into any novice showing up at munches (No play on the first date, always meet in public places, always set-up safecalls, etc.).

But the bottom line is always a matter of personal choice. It is not up to me to help others, it is up to others to help themselves.

I can only point the way ... they have to choose to walk the path.

But, if it is not up to you to help people and it is up to themselves to help themselves, why are you than insisting that the casual community has to protect the novices? Would that not be the novices responsibility?

Don't get me wrong, I actually believe and agree that experienced ones should help the novices. And my understanding is that groups as whole do try to keep the novices safe. But I also believe that each one should be responsible for their choices and decisions. And learn from their mistakes.

I haven't reviewed all of them, but I did read the one quoted above.

Fair is fair, I have to admit I was impressed with the quality of disussion and the lack of disruption.

I will review the others as I have the time. I am curious to see if that was the exception or the rule.

Incredible, isn't it that if an issue is not presented in an antagonistic way and without flinging insult and judgments, even the abuser and predators of the Lit boards can have serious discussions?

So that you know, the only reason why I bother discussing with you is as a public service. The matter is worth discussing, and I believe that such a presumption of righteousness as you have shown in many instances, actually belong to the "red flag" category.

 

[BLoved]

And toss in a dash of 'True Love would be understanding and would overcome these difficulties.'

~smile~

Only when you have faith in the power of love.

 

[BLoved]

Finally, while I think people who enjoy the public scene will defend themselves, they are not out to convert anyone. In my city, there is just no need. There are plenty of people who want to be a part of it.

Over the past two plus years I've sought my beloved I've participated on all the main boards, and I've witnessed many efforts to recruit, and to denigrate anyone who does not subscribe to the casual scene/community.

Consider the topic of "references". My only reference, my wife, had died. According to the advocates of casual bdsm at the time I began seeking were adamant that I should not be trusted because I lacked references. They said I could rectify this problem by participating in the casual community, ignoring the fact my ethics will not sanction participation in the casual scene.

In other words, either I sanction such behaviour and participate, or I will be demonized.

No one has ever offered me another option.

As my ethics and integrity are more important to me than my reputation amongst casual players, this wasn't a hard decision.

 

[BLoved]

Personally, I would find it ignorant if I was interested in something my partner didn't know how to do, and we didn't research it thoroughly, including the act actually being done.

So you coerce your partner into including a stranger by threatening the end of the relationship?

Not much love involved in that, especially if you have no respect for a partner whose ethics exclude the participation of strangers when it comes to intimate behaviour.

I mean, you didn't just jump in a car and start driving because you'd always been in one as a passenger and your intimate relationship grew and then suddenly, you learned.

Apples and oranges.

I was not engaged in intimate behaviour when I was learning to drive.

 

[BLoved]

This is somehow inherent to BDSM? Do what? Have you ever been to a nightclub or bar where people meet to hook up? Or perhaps a college campus where the same thing happens? There is nothing specific to BDSM that implies, condones, or otherwise even cares about NSA sex. That concept crosses all lines these days.

You really don't get out much, do you?

~smile~

I'm addressing a bdsm audience about bdsm issues and you complain because I'm not talking about the vanilla world?

 

[Seurat]

Are you trying to lure me into your dungeon to abuse me with casual play?

Maybe.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet received my 'actual casual BDSM player' authentification yet, so I am not a card carrying member.

I do have some Crystal Skull vodka, which I like a lot, and I am willing to share.

 

[BLoved]

You are actually, by rabidly warning people away.

Just like you're denying people the right to make their own choices in life.

~smile~

If you are giving my words the power to turn people into puppets, how much moreso are they puppets when an entire community sings the praises of dysfunctional behaviour?

 

[BLoved]

Because physical acts are just that, physical. No matter how 'intimate' the act, it really is just mechanics, and that's achievable with anyone.

And therein is the evidence of dysfunctional attitudes towards love.

It is emotionally unhealthy to compartmentalize behaviour from the feelings they naturally produce. You have to shut down your emotions to keep them under control, and humans do not fare well under those conditions.

 

[BLoved]

Contradictory statements.

Without the community, Soumis wouldn't have met that Dom.

But if they were seeking love instead of thrills, they would have spoken to that Dom at length?

Which is it?

I said "Were you seeking love rather than thrills you would have spoken with this person extensively, or at least to the point where you knew it wasn't going to work out at which time you'd have ended the conversation and never met the individual in question."

It pays to read the whole quote.

 

[BLoved]

It's a false paradigm to define all bdsm or sex as either dysfunctional or part of a monogamous, lifelong commitment and "true love."

I do not limit my definition for healthy emotional relationships to those who are monogamous. I accept that closed poly relationships can be just as healthy as monogamous relationships.

I have seen plenty of ongoing play relationships in the public scene between friends that are very loving. Some are warm, friendly and affectionate. To answer the question above, that's how they're not dysfunctional.

From "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love":

---
Partner Exchange (Wife Swapping)

I must make clear that there are two very different types of people who engage in this practice.

There are those who form close friendships with others and with whom they share sexual intimacy. These are not casual, loveless relationships, tho' it is unlikely they are full-blown romances. These are people who care for each other deeply. What they share is not a one-night stand, but part of an evolving relationship.

And then there is the other type.

These are couples where the dom wants to watch his submissive with another woman, or a couple, or for whatever reason finds his sexual arousal enhanced from such situations.

There is little or no contact with each other except for these events.

The submissive might well find herself involved to show her love for her dom, or because she's promised to do anything, etc.

The risk for her is mostly the emotional damage done to her.
---

... but it's not accurate to characterize the public scene everywhere based on a few events. Also, it's not accurate to lump bdsm dating websites with the public scene. There is not a ton of overlap between people who seek out hookup online and people who are active in their public scene. Most people I know locally are wary of those types of casual encounters for safety reasons. Whether or not that's valid is another question. I'm simply pointing this out for the sake of accuracy.

As I have been arguing in favour of love-based bdsm and have opposed casual 'bdsm' for a lot longer than you, I suspect I have greater insight into the manner in which casual advocates advance their agenda.

Furthermore, the basis for my objection is the emotional damage done to those who have no idea what they are getting into (and as the casual community does not recognize a link between intimate behaviour and intimate emotional bonding, that would include everyone involved in casual play).

Casual players are in denial regarding this link, and encourage novices amongst others to participate in dysfunctional behaviour where denial is the outcome if they are to remain in the casual community.

 

[BLoved]

As I'm caught up to the end of page 5, and my beloved is eager for my attention, 'tis time for me to go.

I'll be back.

 

[the captians wench]

Consider the topic of "references". .

This is a topic I have never understood, though, in all honesty, I've only seen it online and have never had anyone mention it out in the offline world.

Still, it's one I've never understood. If a partner was so great, why wouldn't that person still be with them. I have to admit that if any former partner asked me to be a reference they'd be disapointed.

And why should I trust the openion of some one else, whom I don't know from Eve? It just does not make sense to take the word of some one I don't know about some one I don't know to figure out if I might be interested in them.

But I think that topic has been covered here before as well, and most people here think the same way. At least on this board, most people would rather talk and interact with a person themselves before getting too involved rather than trust some one else's openion.

 

[rida]

Maybe.

Unfortunately, I haven't yet received my 'actual casual BDSM player' authentification yet, so I am not a card carrying member.

I do have some Crystal Skull vodka, which I like a lot, and I am willing to share.

You don't have your card yet? COOL! You are even more casual than the casual community! You are casual all on your own! Does not get any more casual than that ... and you have vodka and you are willing to share!

Sounds good enough from where I'm sitting!


(But .... does it come in a REAL crystal skull? otherwise it is not TRUE VODKA and that is unhealthy )

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

I said "Were you seeking love rather than thrills you would have spoken with this person extensively, or at least to the point where you knew it wasn't going to work out at which time you'd have ended the conversation and never met the individual in question."

It pays to read the whole quote.

And they couldn't in the casual context?

Just because people sensed an issue in the making doesn't preclude someone's ability to have that conversation, due to the location.



Oh wait. I get it. You mean talk to them online first. Right.

And who's to say that in all the weeks of conversation with that person, they weren't talking crap? That they then didn't meet for a week to see if things were as each party were expecting? And in said private meeting this Dom turned out to be a whackjob?

It can easily happen. Just because you got lucky meeting yours that way, doesn't mean it works so well for everyone.

 

[CutieMouse]

I will let my beloved answer:

A warning bell? how so?
I love Robert with all of my heart. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of us.
Robert saved me from my Ex-Master, who was a casual player.
My ex left many scars and he brought my self esteem down, to the point where i hated myself, and i looked wherever i could for reconigtion that whatever i did was good.

With Robert everything has changed.
I never thought i could love someone. Even my parents didn't love me the way Robert loves me.
I moved out when i was 15, because my dads a drunk and my mom is abusive. the two of them together was the worst abuse i have ever taken on. Constant harrassment, insults, beatings, slavery, etc. I will not get into much detail about this because it is still hard to go through.
They basically had their thumb on me for most of my life, and i am starting to learn to break through it.

Love can concour many obsticals. I have found that with Robert, i am not so much afraid of my parents as i once was. My ex master contacted me the other day and of course he wanted to use me. He expected me to come with him to a play party. The last time i went to a play party with him, was my first time. And i will never do it again.
I was pushed into doing many things that i didn't want to do.

So to be bound forever and ever with Robert would make me the happiest Sub in the world.
I don't have to be forced into anything with him. We take things slow, and i show my love sexually by asking for more and growing from my experience. I also show my love with the other little things i do. Which if you read Roberts writings on the little things you would know what i mean.

I don't want to be someone's 'bitch' i want to be someones 'love'.

Robert and I are quite happy knowing that our hearts have found each other in this crazy world of BDSM.
So for you question, 'do i know that i am bound to Robert forever and ever?'
Yes i do because i want to be, just as much as he wants to be bound to my love.

Thank you for your contribution; it makes sense.

I do hope that Robert's Love extends to helping you obtain professional counseling to work through any issues you may have from the abuse you suffered as a child, and wish you both well.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Withdrawn, because frankly I'm not in the mood to be told that my relationship is abusive when it's not.

 

[BLoved]

Thank you for your contribution; it makes sense.

I do hope that Robert's Love extends to helping you obtain professional counseling to work through any issues you may have from the abuse you suffered as a child, and wish you both well.

Well thanks. But in the past i have seeked professional counseling and i can tell you this, the love and respect Robert gives me is more encouraging and more supportive than any professional cousellor that i have been through. And if i did decide that i needed to seek other means for help Robert would be there supporting me throughout it all.

So the past means nothing, because Love is encouraging me to change for the best.

There was nothing wrong with me that Love couldn't fix. I may have my ups and downs, but Robert will always be at my side, through the good and the bad times.
The 2 months that Robert and I have known eachother, both of us have grown with love for one another, and that love has freed me of my chains that my parents and ex had around me.

 

[Netzach]

Well thanks. But in the past i have seeked professional counseling and i can tell you this, the love and respect Robert gives me is more encouraging and more supportive than any professional cousellor that i have been through. And if i did decide that i needed to seek other means for help Robert would be there supporting me throughout it all.

So the past means nothing, because Love is encouraging me to change for the best.

There was nothing wrong with me that Love couldn't fix. I may have my ups and downs, but Robert will always be at my side, through the good and the bad times.
The 2 months that Robert and I have known eachother, both of us have grown with love for one another, and that love has freed me of my chains that my parents and ex had around me.

http://www.mvwcs.com/redflag.html

 

[Netzach]

Let me get this right.

A woman in two abusive relationships of note, one of them being familial.

Identifying, clear-headed, no doubt what Real Love is in three weeks or less.

No dysfunction here to take advantage of. Move along.

 

[Netzach]

Oh wait, it doesn't feel so good when someone else does it?

 

[eastern sun]

http://www.mvwcs.com/redflag.html

The thing that has been frightening me is that both his previous partner and child are dead, at least according to his story. If only one or the other had died while in his care I would be less concerned.

 

[Netzach]

The thing that has been frightening me is that both his previous partner and child are dead, at least according to his story. If only one or the other had died while in his care I would be less concerned.

I'm going to say it because after a certain amount of abusing abuse victims by shitting on their relationships you get Nuclear Netzach in your thread and I just don't care.

I would if I thought they actually existed.

 

[Netzach]

There are people who HAVE suffered similar losses among us and I believe them. They treat these losses entirely differently.

I know we all do - but most people don't scream out "tragic story, chicks dig it" to me.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Let me get this right.

A woman in two abusive relationships of note, one of them being familial.

Identifying, clear-headed, no doubt what Real Love is in three weeks or less.

No dysfunction here to take advantage of. Move along.

This would all be funny if it weren't so fucking sad.