The 'ethics' of casual 'bdsm'

[BLoved]

Predators will use whatever system works to their advantage. Yes

Casual 'bdsm' promotes multiple partners. No

Since when?

Play parties, public parties, threesomes, one-night stands with virtual strangers. This is not part of the culture of casual 'bdsm'?

Casual 'bdsm' denigrates emotional attachments. No

NSA - No Strings Attached is not part of the casual 'bdsm' culture? The casual community promotes loving emotional attachments? Where?

Casual 'bdsm' can be defined any way the individual wishes, there is no standard. Yes

Casual 'bdsm' is already the exclusive form of 'bdsm' being promoted through the online forums. No

What online site isn't run by, and for the benefit of the casual community? Which site is it where one can discuss the defects of casual 'bdsm' without disruption? Obviously not this one.

Advocates of casual 'bdsm' are willing to offer recommendations to anyone who agrees with them. No

~smile~

And yet it is true nonetheless.

Casual communities disrupt/censor any discussion regarding abuse involving casual 'bdsm'. No

Would you like me to quote the people who have tried to disrupt this discussion, or shall I simply point out your effort in these quotes to portray the casual community as the antithesis of a predator's lifestyle?

For a predator, casual 'bdsm' is heaven on earth. Predators do not need casual BDSM to find their victims

~smile~

So according to you casual 'bdsm' is 'predator-free' ... only those seeking love are at risk of being targetted by predators?


---

Apologies for those awaiting a response who appear earlier in the thread. I will return to those the next time I return. Just had enough time to look at the reaction to my posts and couldn't pass up responding to the above.

I'll be back.

 

[rida]

So according to you casual 'bdsm' is 'predator-free' ... only those seeking love are at risk of being targetted by predators?

I've never said that there is no abuse at all. But that is the same as in the non BDSM world.
I just disagreed with your absolutes.

3some, one night stands, NSA, sex parties are not limited to BDSM environment. And, to me, but we already know we disagree here, they are not antithetical with love, or emotional health, or self esteem. They could be, for someone that goes about it with all the wrong reasons.

Like for even a monogamous, vanilla relationship, a degree of self-awareness and understanding of your own motives is necessary for such a relationship to be successful.

And for successful relationship (of any kind) I mean a relationship that meet each others needs (not necessarily all of them), have respect, care, love (if that is part of it) and can help you learn more about yourself or at least simply leaves you with a good memory.

The lack of the above quality of a successful relationship is not automatically defining an abusive relationship or an unhealthy or unethical one.

Again, I do not disagree that activities such 3somes, one night stands, NRA could be unhealthy for someone. I disagree with the absolute that just engaging in such action is unhealthy (and unethical) per se.

 

[eastern sun]

So you observed them for the beginning of the evening and then played with them the rest of the evening?

In what way does that rule out a health risk? In what way does that rule out emotional/psychological risks to the person you chose?

And you see nothing wrong with the casual community seeking to avoid that discussion at every turn? Disruptive behaviour to de-rail any conversation started, discredit any report of abuse provided, demonize anyone who raises a concern about the lack of ethics?

We've seen all of this here in the past week.

And then there are the ubiquitous threads about how wonderful it is.

If indeed it needs to be discussed, why isn't the online casual community spear-heading the effort? Why all the effort to avoid any serious discussion on the topic of abuse in the casual community?

My essays and stories conveyed my competence to my beloved. Weeks of conversation allowed both of us to assess the risks. Spending days together without involving bdsm or sex allowed us to confirm the impressions we'd obtained from those conversations.

Even so, trust issues can arise when trust is put to the test.

I appreciate your willingness to elaborate on your original essays. I think you make many valid points. Though I'd like to clarify a few points where I think you may have misunderstood me.

Actually, the way I've set up my BDSM "one-night stands" mirrors the way you met your beloved - corresponding over a period of months and even years through written stories, email, phone conversations - which included sexual stimulation - observing their interactions with others online or in public settings, and then meeting one-on-one. Frequently those initial meetings were for a meal and did not include sexual or BDSM activities. And on more than one occasion, if the initial meetings did not feel "right" in my own judgement, our physical contact was discontinued.

I have crossed multiple state lines to meet people, flown across the country alone, and value each experience that I've had. In fact, I've only met one person who used my interest in submission as an opportunity to express his hatred of women. He never touched me, took me out for an extremely expensive lunch, made me feel like shit in the most subtle of ways, after which I went home, took out a pair of scissors, cut off all my hair, and decided I would never see him again.

I think you're right in saying that casual BDSM offers opportunities for predators. I also know from my own experience that BDSM excites "novices" into reckless behavior and/or frequently takes on an escalating pattern, in which greater and greater risks are taken to achieve the same emotional/physical experience.

Numerous discussions have taken place in this forum on the potential dangers of BDSM practice. And this discussion is now one of them.

I am a sober addict/alcoholic. In all my experience in working through addiction and abuse, though, I've never found success in trumpeting others' failures. Or of having my own failures pointed out to me. It doesn't enhance anyone's self-esteem, except for the one who can see the others' shortcomings, I suppose. It doesn't really offer a way out of habitual patterns, either. It suggests that I must abandon all that I am in order to find salvation - of the born-again kind.

When I was getting sober, I did have to stop engaging in certain activities (drinking); and I needed to stop hanging around with people who encouraged me to do them (my drinking buddies). And I was told, by my new friends, that my relationship with my husband would not survive me getting sober. That our patterns were too deeply entwined, and that I could not make such a significant change without sacrificing the relationship.

Frankly, the fact that I was told that made me all the more determined to stay in my marriage. People draw lines around what they think they need to stay safe and happy, and they'll defend those boundaries against offense.

I don't live in a world where the concept of "True Love" exists outside of a romance novel. And I don't want to negate all the valid points you have made about how we all treat each other. It's just that because "True Love" is as empty a concept as "casual BDSM," it can be used by potential abusers as well. Precisely because it holds a promise that no real threat will ever occur.

And I don't accept that as the nature of the world.

Even in your own story, blessed with "true love," your wife broke the promise you held her to from the first days of your relationship together. (I've told my children "no dying today, please. It's not allowed.") And your son suffered a fatal accident only a few months later.

What frightens me is that "True Love" cannot save us from breaking that kind of promise. Nor keep our children alive.

Something else is required. And it is abandoning all those concepts in order to truly see what is happening in and around you. In order to accurately assess the existence of a threat. And gauge our actions accordingly.

"Novices" are frequently seduced by the fantasies and concepts they are introduced to, in whatever form they take. Being able to see the "real stuff" behind all these words is extremely important.

I think you have a lot of courage and will to present your views in this way. And, having looked at your posts last year, I also think it took a lot of guts to walk into the lions' den, so to speak.

On the other hand, you are in danger of objectifying me, and others in this forum. You are not seeing who we actually are. Language does that. It can either bring two minds together or fling them apart.

It doesn't mean you're wrong about us. But it doesn't mean you're right, either.

 

[eastern sun]

Is it ethical to undermine your own self-esteem, to render yourself incapable of giving or receiving love, to subject yourself to abuse because you believe you deserve no better?

Is it ethical to inflict abuse upon another, to deceive another so as to satisfy your need for kink/sex, to abuse the self-esteem of another so as to feel powerful?

No, I do not believe it is ethical to behave in those ways. I also don't assume that those conditions exist in every activity that falls within the semantic realm of "casual BDSM."

Though some of my sexual and romantic experiences undermined my self-esteem (primarily those that took place in my childhood and early teen years when I was confused by the conflict between what people were telling me and what I was experiencing), not all do. Sometimes, experiencing myself as an attractive and sexually desirable woman significantly enhances my self-esteem (especially as I'm approaching my 50's in a culture where youth is highly valued).

Though most of the time I do not feel that I am subjecting myself to abuse, once in a while I do question my behavior. And I do grow concerned about the way my behavior impacts the lives of other people. I think self-reflection is a valuable and important piece of any life, regardless of its circumstances.

And, how can I adequately explain to you the feelings of peace and tranquillity that I have in certain situations that might be deemed abusive from one perspective, but are not, in my experience, because they do not damage me.

You might assume that abuse I have suffered at the hands of others has created in me a damaged soul who cannot know the full experience of happiness.

I don't agree. We all have our stories of good and bad treatment. It's part of the human condition.

(And I don't agree with your earlier statement that heartbreak at the end of a relationship is equivalent to abuse. Heartbreak can be one of those uplifting experiences in life that actually open our hearts and allow us to see other people with greater clarity and freedom; whereas abuse creates so much fear and confusion and internal conflict you can't even feel your own truth any more.)

Discovering how we respond to the circumstances we find ourselves in is the key to unlocking our character.

 

[Primalex]

I have yet to see the casual community discuss in public abuse within the community.

Threads here dealing with abuse:


Another Attempt at Abuse

The thin line of Abuse

Jeremy Noyes case: child abuse and sex slavery in the name of kink

Connection between BDSM interests and history of sexual abuse

I have finally deduced the true meaning of abuse

Since we talked about abuse and BDSM lately

Talking about abuse...

perceptions of abuse

Defining Abuse in Absolute and Total Power Exchange

Abuse: is there such a thing in the 'lifestyle'?

A case study in power, control and abuse

subs & sexual abuse

Does a history of abuse make one more into this?

D/s... Abuse... how do you know the line

Advice: BDSM or no? M/f with histories of abuse. All help welcome!

Is it abuse or just BDSM?

does sexual abuse lead to bdsm?

Fairy Tales = Subs = Abuse

...

 

[eastern sun]

Threads here dealing with abuse:
...

Thanks. I was hoping someone would take the time to link them.

 

[rida]

I think you're right in saying that casual BDSM offers opportunities for predators. I also know from my own experience that BDSM excites "novices" into reckless behavior and/or frequently takes on an escalating pattern, in which greater and greater risks are taken to achieve the same emotional/physical experience.

Yes.

Sub-frenzy is real and dangerous. And mentor-ship of such novice is often a disguised way to "use" them (I do not categorize all "use" as "abuse").

Many a posters on this board (and on others such as Fetlife) have stressed to the novices the importance of being aware of such dangers and careful in selecting such mentor.

Lack of advice and lectures and guideline is not the problem.

I think that sub-frenzy, as a state of high excitement, is pretty akin to a drug-induced high/withdrawal state and it is very hard to get a submissive novice to listen to the advises given from more seasoned and experienced PYL or pyl.

And since sub-frenzy happens only at the early stages, there is indeed much less talk of it than sub-drop or sub-space.

So we go back to making sure guideline to help pick a good PYL and advices on not having to submit to every one that claim PYL status are given to all novices showing up.

At least, on this board, I've seen the above advices given time and again. Together with a prodding of thinking with your own head and decide for yourself what you want and what your limits are, in term of BDSM activities and relationship styles.

ETA: just reading in the most recent "Newbie here, looking for advice" there are example of such

 

[CutieMouse]

(And I don't agree with your earlier statement that heartbreak at the end of a relationship is equivalent to abuse. Heartbreak can be one of those uplifting experiences in life that actually open our hearts and allow us to see other people with greater clarity and freedom; whereas abuse creates so much fear and confusion and internal conflict you can't even feel your own truth any more.)

QFT

And I had half a mind to reply to BL's comments directed towards me, but there are so many disconnects/loopholes/easy outs in his arguments I honestly can't wrap my mind around the conversation anymore.

From Zero to True Love in 3 weeks? Seriously?

 

[eastern sun]

Yes.

Sub-frenzy is real and dangerous. And mentor-ship of such novice is often a disguised way to "use" them (I do not categorize all "use" as "abuse").

Many a posters on this board (and on others such as Fetlife) have stressed to the novices the importance of being aware of such dangers and careful in selecting such mentor.

Lack of advice and lectures and guideline is not the problem.

I think that sub-frenzy, as a state of high excitement, is pretty akin to a drug-induced high/withdrawal state and it is very hard to get a submissive novice to listen to the advises given from more seasoned and experienced PYL or pyl.

And since sub-frenzy happens only at the early stages, there is indeed much less talk of it than sub-drop or sub-space.

So we go back to making sure guideline to help pick a good PYL and advices on not having to submit to every one that claim PYL status are given to all novices showing up.

At least, on this board, I've seen the above advices given time and again. Together with a prodding of thinking with your own head and decide for yourself what you want and what your limits are, in term of BDSM activities and relationship styles.

Yes. I was thinking earlier too, that problems and difficulties that arise during this period may be internalized and under-reported, because the submissive feels shame at having been so eager and naive. (The only reason I mention this, by the way, is because I've experienced it myself . . . so please don't think I'm being judgmental.)

The fact that "sub-frenzy" is a readily observable state with some predictable outcomes does suggest the need for responsibility on the part of more experienced players.

But . . . please, watch out, I may push some buttons here . . . people who are interested in the D/s and S/M aspects of BDSM are sometimes bringing with them some pretty heavy baggage.

To pretend otherwise (insisting that we are smarter, more mature, or otherwise more sensitive than that crazy vanilla crowd) is to miss the writing on the wall, and set everyone up for unrealistic expectations of maturity and health.

 

[00Syd]

But . . . please, watch out, I may push some buttons here . . . people who are interested in the D/s and S/M aspects of BDSM are sometimes bringing with them some pretty heavy baggage.

To pretend otherwise (insisting that we are smarter, more mature, or otherwise more sensitive than that crazy vanilla crowd) is to miss the writing on the wall, and set everyone up for unrealistic expectations of maturity and health.

I completely agree with this, but the key word for me is 'sometimes'. Some people assume that everyone involved is bringing heavy baggage with them, and others believe, like you say, that we are all somehow smarter or more mature. Both of these opinions are, I think, opinions that need correcting.

 

[eastern sun]

I completely agree with this, but the key word for me is 'sometimes'. Some people assume that everyone involved is bringing heavy baggage with them, and others believe, like you say, that we are all somehow smarter or more mature. Both of these opinions are, I think, opinions that need correcting.

Yes. I agree. We cannot over-generalize and keep saying things that are true.

 

[rida]

Yes. I was thinking earlier too, that problems and difficulties that arise during this period may be internalized and under-reported, because the submissive feels shame at having been so eager and naive. (The only reason I mention this, by the way, is because I've experienced it myself . . . so please don't think I'm being judgmental.)

The fact that "sub-frenzy" is a readily observable state with some predictable outcomes does suggest the need for responsibility on the part of more experienced players.

I'm sure there are cases when real abuse gets under-reported for the reasons you mentioned above. Other times, they are probably kept as "lesson learned; moving on".

By reading on the different groups on Fetlife from people active in their local BDSM community, and some other posters experiences here on Lit, there seems to be a big emphasis during munches and events on keeping a protective eye on the new-ones and keeping the proved "abuser" away.
Perhaps a little pamphlet on sub-frenzy to hand out to knew members could be helpful.

But more than warn and talk about it, you cannot keep an adult from making mistakes.

But . . . please, watch out, I may push some buttons here . . . people who are interested in the D/s and S/M aspects of BDSM are sometimes bringing with them some pretty heavy baggage.

To pretend otherwise (insisting that we are smarter, more mature, or otherwise more sensitive than that crazy vanilla crowd) is to miss the writing on the wall, and set everyone up for unrealistic expectations of maturity and health.

As 00Syd said, the operative word here is "sometime".
And those people would bring the same baggage into a vanilla relationship, interaction or vanilla one night stand as well.

The believe of being "of superior intellect and maturity" because inclined to enjoy BDSM, is also indeed totally wrong. Self-awarness is not a monopoly of kinky people, same as being predatory is not a monopoly of being into casual BDSM.

 

[Etoile]

BLoved, you've known your significant other for two months total, and knew you were each other's forever love after five weeks? Sorry, but a whole lot of your credibility with me just went out the window.

I realize you're over 40 and have been married before (your profile says this). But to decide that you're going to stay with someone forever and ever after five weeks - let alone after only knowing them for two months - just reeks of someone who is immature and inexperienced in the ways of love and relationships.

Now, perhaps there will be some who say that at your age, you are able to tell when you've found someone you really love, even as quickly as that. But I don't buy it. In fact, I don't believe that people should plan marriage or long-term relationships until they've had sex, lived together, etc. You never know when somebody's going to be a lousy lay, or wipe their boogers on the shower wall, or some other horrible habit that just means you absolutely cannot stand living with that person long-term.

I entered my current relationship more than 12 years ago. When we met, we were friends for a few months, before we started a relationship. We had sex, sure, but we didn't ever really think "this is the person I will spend the rest of my life with." It grew into that. Maybe because we're lesbians, so there's no "let's tie the knot" pressure, but we just grew into a long-term relationship - we didn't get "wedding" rings until 6 years in.

I just don't believe anyone who decides to stay with someone forever after knowing them for two months has any credibility or should be trusted when they speak about relationships, period. I mean, that's something high schoolers do. Sorry, but any of your ideas are just not going to click for me. Good luck though.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Does Bloved's girlfriend know that she is bound to him forever and ever?

That actually rings a warning bell in my mind.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Now, perhaps there will be some who say that at your age, you are able to tell when you've found someone you really love, even as quickly as that. But I don't buy it. In fact, I don't believe that people should plan marriage or long-term relationships until they've had sex, lived together, etc. You never know when somebody's going to be a lousy lay, or wipe their boogers on the shower wall, or some other horrible habit that just means you absolutely cannot stand living with that person long-term.

Much the same thoughts had crossed my mind, but I had wandered into the 'virgins until married' territory. Despite all the love, sexual incompatability can bring a relationship crashing down.

I'm assuming kink incompatability can as well. It's all good and well to have an in depth discussion about what you like and don't like and want to do, but if you're going to commit to someone and then play... and if, despite all the love and everything else being perfect, it's just not right for someone or both, then what?

 

[CutieMouse]

Much the same thoughts had crossed my mind, but I had wandered into the 'virgins until married' territory. Despite all the love, sexual incompatibility can bring a relationship crashing down.

I'm assuming kink incompatibility can as well. It's all good and well to have an in depth discussion about what you like and don't like and want to do, but if you're going to commit to someone and then play... and if, despite all the love and everything else being perfect, it's just not right for someone or both, then what?

Or what if one finds the "love of their life"... and a year or two down the road realize their lover wants someone who is mostly Domme with a dash of submissive (when it suits them), and that isn't how you are oriented?

Or that they have fetishes that aren't just confusing, they lead to self-esteem issues? What happens when that "love of your life" isn't willing to give up their fetishes/needs, and takes advantage of one's submissive nature to get their needs met, regardless of the damage it causes?

Those sorts of things can happen over time... years, actually. Even in a relationship where the couple initially believes in True Love.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Those sorts of things can happen over time... years, actually. Even in a relationship where the couple initially believes in True Love.

*nods*

And then you have to find a flexibility if you want to keep the relationship.

 

[CutieMouse]

*nods*

And then you have to find a flexibility if you want to keep the relationship.

And sometimes you work so hard to be flexible that you break.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Or what if one finds the "love of their life"... and a year or two down the road realize their lover wants someone who is mostly Domme with a dash of submissive (when it suits them), and that isn't how you are oriented?

Or that they have fetishes that aren't just confusing, they lead to self-esteem issues? What happens when that "love of your life" isn't willing to give up their fetishes/needs, and takes advantage of one's submissive nature to get their needs met, regardless of the damage it causes?

Those sorts of things can happen over time... years, actually. Even in a relationship where the couple initially believes in True Love.

While I agree absolutely and fully with this, I can see the opposing argument forming in my head. Oh boy.

 

[CutieMouse]

While I agree absolutely and fully with this, I can see the opposing argument forming in my head. Oh boy.

Cliff Notes version -

It became abusive, therefore it wasn't True Love.
Because it wasn't True Love, it was casual and therefore abusive.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Cliff Notes version -

It became abusive, therefore it wasn't True Love.
Because it wasn't True Love, it was casual and therefore abusive.

And toss in a dash of 'True Love would be understanding and would overcome these difficulties.'

 

[rida]

BLoved, you've known your significant other for two months total, and knew you were each other's forever love after five weeks? Sorry, but a whole lot of your credibility with me just went out the window.

I'm an hopeless romantic and do believe in "Love at First Sight", soul mate(s) and all that jazz.

However, I also know that just because someone feels like the "love of your life", it does not necessarily mean he/she is.

I do hope they are indeed what he believes they are. However, I agree that it does not add to his "be careful!" credentials, as there are bigger emotional risks involved in believing in True Love after such a short time rather than after few years.

 

[Etoile]

I'm an hopeless romantic and do believe in "Love at First Sight", soul mate(s) and all that jazz.

However, I also know that just because someone feels like the "love of your life", it does not necessarily mean he/she is.

I do hope they are indeed what he believes they are. However, I agree that it does not add to his "be careful!" credentials, as there are bigger emotional risks involved in believing in True Love after such a short time rather than after few years.

Oh, I believe in love at first sight too! In fact, I knew I loved my wife the minute I flung open the door to meet her for the very first time. Holy shit she was beautiful and I loved her immediately.

But I'm not going to marry somebody two months after meeting them for the first time. People can love each other without being each other's "love of their lives" or whatever.

 

[Seurat]

And I had half a mind to reply to BL's comments directed towards me, but there are so many disconnects/loopholes/easy outs in his arguments I honestly can't wrap my mind around the conversation anymore.

I did give 'nailing the perspective down' a shot, but for some reason I haven't seen a reply. If I have the time, maybe I will collect the most recent comments and try another tact.

 

[intothewoods]

I've never said that there is no abuse at all. But that is the same as in the non BDSM world.
I just disagreed with your absolutes.

3some, one night stands, NSA, sex parties are not limited to BDSM environment. And, to me, but we already know we disagree here, they are not antithetical with love, or emotional health, or self esteem. They could be, for someone that goes about it with all the wrong reasons.

Like for even a monogamous, vanilla relationship, a degree of self-awareness and understanding of your own motives is necessary for such a relationship to be successful.

And for successful relationship (of any kind) I mean a relationship that meet each others needs (not necessarily all of them), have respect, care, love (if that is part of it) and can help you learn more about yourself or at least simply leaves you with a good memory.

The lack of the above quality of a successful relationship is not automatically defining an abusive relationship or an unhealthy or unethical one.

Again, I do not disagree that activities such 3somes, one night stands, NRA could be unhealthy for someone. I disagree with the absolute that just engaging in such action is unhealthy (and unethical) per se.

Also, not everyone who is into the casual scene is into threesomes or having "public" (i.e., at a play party) sex. In fact, one group in my city started because sex was frowned upon in the other popular group here. There are many folks who go to the parties to participate in impact play only, or other play that does not include sex. BLoved, you may see this as all intimate, and I know others here on this forum who would agree with you (this is not a monolithic group), but I personally can participate in impact play in a non-intimate way. It's different than how it feels with my PYL.

Finally, while I think people who enjoy the public scene will defend themselves, they are not out to convert anyone. In my city, there is just no need. There are plenty of people who want to be a part of it.