Debating a Few Philosophies of BDSM - Love, Kink, Lust, Etc

[Lizzie_Borden]

Point taken.

It's hard to give up on the fact that someone is missing all of their Reasonable Human Being gene...

Good god, we're a group of masochists... =/

As my Dad would say, he must have been hiding behind the door when they were passing that gene out in the hospital.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Definitely - though there are people who do this who are much smoother. If this guy really is posting straight up, his M.O. reflects an appalling lack of subtlety.

For sure.

It reminds me terribly of something a local Domme said on FL a while ago, about the fetishisation of submission and the colloquially known 'do me subs' that aren't actually submissive at all.

I'm drawing a whole lot of parallels between those examples and our current case in point, only with a possible flip to the other side of the slash.

 

[00Syd]

"White Knight" is just as legitimate as any other perv, but it's no more and no less than just another kink.

The big list of warning signs linked in the OP is published on an erotica site and that's what it is: erotica.

One person's idea of what gets them hot: "I'm here to save you from the predators".

Totally spot on.

There's a guy in the NYC scene who I know who I'm pretty sure completely gets off on this. He very annoyingly acts like the biggest supporter and ally of every non-male person in pretty much anything they say, or any opinion they have. I constantly want to tell him to shut the fuck up and I hate it when he tries to help me with his support. I don't need his support. It feels so slimy and ingenuous.

But he's definitely smoother than this guy. I mean this guy is completely intolerable, whereas the guy I know is actually okay to hang out with.

 

[Homburg]

Ahem.



Waiting.

*snort*

--

"White Knight" is just as legitimate as any other perv, but it's no more and no less than just another kink.

The big list of warning signs linked in the OP is published on an erotica site and that's what it is: erotica.

One person's idea of what gets them hot: "I'm here to save you from the predators".

Before I hit the "TL;DR" point (largely to to insanely random paragraphs breaks scattered about as if fired from a blunderbuss), this was my impression as well. It's a kink and an attempt at manipulation.


I think my favourite part is the actual first-hand experience of the "casual" scene held by this yahoo is one munch and... Oh yeah, nothing else.

 

[Netzach]

I think my favourite part is the actual first-hand experience of the "casual" scene held by this yahoo is one munch and... Oh yeah, nothing else.

~smile~

 

[CeriseNin]

From the second article.

The writer starts: First and foremost, bdsm is a tool for expressing love and respect.

Doesn't it seem more reasonable that a master who treats his slave with love and respect will get better results than one who treats her abusively and without respect?

I agree.

But consider the qualities I've described. Not exactly something one is likely to find very often.

It is much easier to master the skills of the whip and crop than to train heart and soul to be sensitive to the subtleties of nuance, tone and body language.

I don't agree, actually. Love isn't required for any of the above, nor does everyone in the life style use bdsm as a way to express love. The bits I bolded can and do happen inside relationships that aren't built on the same foundation you'd construct yours.

 

[Netzach]

From the second article.

The writer starts: First and foremost, bdsm is a tool for expressing love and respect.

I don't agree, actually. Love isn't required for any of the above, nor does everyone in the life style use bdsm as a way to express love. The bits I bolded can and do happen inside relationships that aren't built on the same foundation you'd construct yours.

I'd agree. In fact, you can be hired to torture a prisoner and be extremely keyed in to all those subtleties. You can be remarkably sensitive to people whose best interest you do not have at heart.

Conflating those things is dangerous.

 

[sb2009]

so where are these hell pits? They sound kind of fun. Not a single man tried to make me his prey, and I even went to the bathroom and walked every so slowly back to my husband in case someone was looking for easy pickings :-(

 

[neci]

Against what? Character assassination?

For the benefit of whom, your Rent-a-Mob?



You were the one who felt the need for a dedicated thread without reference to my writings, a "discussion" about the topic of ethics. When did it become my responsibility to start it for you?



You were the one who said you wanted a "discussion" without reference to my writing. I told you I was interested. So look at your OP and tell me how that worked out.

Has anyone whose ethics oppose yours stepped forward to "debate" or "discuss" the issues you said you want to "discuss"? I see only those who advocate casual 'bdsm'. And each of them believes he or she derives some benefit from their advocacy: popularity.

first off, i am a very private person, and have never engaged in public play. on that note, i see no issue with it. none.

I see no defense of the lack of ethics involved in casual 'bdsm'. Only personal attacks directed at me.

i would be interested in a definition of ethics in relation to BDSM. please, do not refer me to some "writings" you may have done. explain it to me here.

~shrug~

You obviously wanted to give everyone a chance to flame me and hoped I'd start the thread myself. Instead you had to take on the responsibility for setting this thread on fire and I've just sat back and watched you.

waiting. to jump. with self righteous talk of ethics and love.

If this be a mature and responsible effort to discuss the issues without reference to my writing, you've obviously failed. You haven't even encouraged anyone else with similar views to speak out.

this is a public forum. be a man, or whatever you are, and quit blaming others for your lack of support.

Once again we hear the casual advocates sing the praises of casual 'bdsm' for the sake of their popularity, if not their next victim.

what about the victim in the longterm relationship with the passive aggressive asshole who condemns free thought and experimentation?

Since this is what I told people to expect, you've only provided me with more credibility while discrediting yourself, considering the thread you initially said you wanted.

people see what they choose to see.

You've proven nothing but that you can and will shout down anyone whose ethics disagree with yours. Dissent is not permitted and should anyone be so bold as to voice them they can expect much the same as you've attempted to pull on me.



~smile~

And when you return you will still be left singing to the choir.

You have only demonstrated how touchy casual advocates are about a practice they cannot justify through ethics.

it's the buzz word again! ethics!

They are no better than a howling mob when faced with someone who challenges their unethical practices.

~smile~

Your disappointment is showing.

Rather obvious you and your friends were eagerly anticipating a flame-fest with me as the target.

Instead you and your friends get to parade around on your own, protesting that anyone should have values that differ from yours.

So much for 'diversity' in your perfect 'bdsm' world.

Your intolerance for beliefs and ethics which disagree with you is made manifest.

I notice your failure to 'encourage' anyone with ethics similar to mine to participate. They exist, of course. My essays and stories would not be as highly rated by so many if they didn't.

where are they now? why are they not rushing to defend you?

How can we account for your failure to encourage them to join in?

since when is it her responsibility to go out recruiting for people to defend you? her failure? her failure? my dear, this right here is when i lost all sense of sympathy i had for you. this is sounds very passive aggressive. is this the kind of Dom you are in your loving, ethical relationships?

Couldn't be the character assassination, the eagerness to flame, the need to eviscerate those who disagree, now could it.

admit it, you are getting off on the martyr role here. i see the flames around Joan of Arc right now as she cries into the sky.

Couldn't be your animosity for those who do not share your fanatical views regarding the "One True Way": casual 'bdsm'.

Couldn't be how easily you target a single individual for your vitriol.

No, it must be something else. Some other reason why you haven't attracted any opposition to your 'debate'.

Whatever could that reason be ... hmmmm?

here we go again. blaming an individual in the forum for losing an argument. whatever could that reason be ... hmmmm?

my eyes could not focus on the screen long enough to take in everything.

 

[CeriseNin]

Needs

The first need of the casual community is more recruits.

They are always recruiting more female submissives.

There is a good reason for that: female submissives quit the community.

One might ask "why?".

I find the cigarette industry a useful comparison.

How do you convince people to give up breathing fresh air and teach them to prefer cigarette smoke instead?

For the casual community, the question is: How do you convince people to give up Love and teach them to prefer lustful, loveless one night stands?

The answer is the same: you make it look "cool", and you silence anyone who would issue a warning about the dangers.

The reason so many female submissives quit is because they learn of the dangers for themselves, usually as a result of being abused.

Just as those who found themselves invaded by lung cancer gave up smoking.

In the effort of white-knighting other adults, the writer has managed to insult them by assuming they've not chosen to play casually but were somehow tricked into it, because, you know, they're submissives with vaginas. In other words: helpless. The rest of the article isn't any better, which may lead a reader to question the extent of writer's real life experience.

 

[sb2009]

OP: have you interviewed people who were *not* abused as a part of public play?

When I was working at a rape crisis center, the clients I dealt with daily had been sexually assaulted. If I based my views of penis/vagina or vagina/vagina or whatever combo soley on these experiences, I would think that everyone was sexually assaulted.

However, I also talk to lots of people who have not been assaulted, and they help me balance my view. Mabye this does not make sense to you.

Does anyone remember the study published recently stating that casual sexual encounters do not harm one's phyche as was beleived?

Plus, I would never have met my "beloved" if I hadn't been into casual sex ;-) I liked him enough to come back for seconds...thirds....15 + years later....

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not even in the same universe. What he describes sounds like something out of the Gor books, and absolutely nothing like what I have experienced here, on planet Earth.

The GOR books talk a lot about love and devotion of the master for the slave. I cannot remember any point where Howard subjected his primary characters to being shared, or abused by the Good Guys.

And the Gorean Society is mostly a bunch of devoted couples-- the ones I've met. The whole ethos is based on constant communication, the slave and the owner always aware of each other.of course some people don't get that and call themselves Goreans but some people have drivers licenses and can't actually drive, either...

Just a side comment, really.

 

[00Syd]

The GOR books talk a lot about love and devotion of the master for the slave. I cannot remember any point where Howard subjected his primary characters to being shared, or abused by the Good Guys.

And the Gorean Society is mostly a bunch of devoted couples-- the ones I've met. The whole ethos is based on constant communication, the slave and the owner always aware of each other.of course some people don't get that and call themselves Goreans but some people have drivers licenses and can't actually drive, either...

Just a side comment, really.

Oh, I was really just talking about his description of public parties, which reminded me of some Gor imagery I've seen/descriptions I've read. That's all

 

[Primalex]

so where are these hell pits?

Here is one.

 

[CeriseNin]

I'd agree. In fact, you can be hired to torture a prisoner and be extremely keyed in to all those subtleties. You can be remarkably sensitive to people whose best interest you do not have at heart.

Conflating those things is dangerous.

That's an excellent point.

OT: what's going on with your avatar?

 

[Netzach]

That's an excellent point.

OT: what's going on with your avatar?

Chanukah special : Ham. = Fail

 

[BLoved]

If you read that as disappointment, you need to re-calibrate your human factor. It isn't disappointment, it's tired of the bullshit.

And just out of curiosity, how the fuck do you know that my views and opinions are different from yours? I've not made a statement either way because I'm still waiting for you to put down your opinion in a nice, cohesive thread. It's not happening and yet you are the one bitching about being flamed.

I, personally, have no problem when someone has different values than myself. It's actually rather enjoyable to be able to exchange ideas and concepts. You are not exchanging ideas and concepts, you're acting like an immature child.

Now, if you would choose to write your values and opinions down in one thread dedicated to the subject, I'd be happy to have a discussion with you. I will not, however A) have half-discussions spread all over different threads in the Cafe and B) continue to listen to you bitch and whine about "But it isn't right..." if you act like a fucking man and take the initiative to do it the "right" way and C) continue trying to have a discussion with someone who's only form communication is smiling in a condescending manner.

P.S.
Telling someone that X is X without any explanation as to how or why X is X isn't a discussion. It's simply being repetitive.

And here I thought "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love" was a cohesive expression of my opinions.

I must assume research is not required on this board before flaming.

By the way, I notice no one here has managed to recruit anyone with an opposing point of view to participate so as to actually have a "debate".

Wonder why so many of you find that so difficult. Surely such a 'mature' mob as is represented here can encourage discussion from various opposing points of view.

~smile~

 

[LearningSub]

deleted

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

And here I thought "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love" was a cohesive expression of my opinions.

I must assume research is not required on this board before flaming.

By the way, I notice no one here has managed to recruit anyone with an opposing point of view to participate so as to actually have a "debate".

Wonder why so many of you find that so difficult. Surely such a 'mature' mob as is represented here can encourage discussion from various opposing points of view.

~smile~

Maybe because you're point of view is not shared by anyone else.

You continue to back down and deflect. If you stood up for yourself and your views then others might join in.

But I doubt we will ever find that out.

 

[Primalex]

[...]

FRESH MEAT!

*drools*

SURRENDER, WALKING VAGINA! MY WORD IS THE LAW! YOU ARE NOW MINE!

MUAHAHAHHAA!

http://www.wunderground.com/data/wximagenew/b/bcdave/1.jpg

 

[LearningSub]

deleted

 

[Primalex]

*swoons and falls to my knees*

Oh Mighty Sir And Magnificent Master!

please, take me now!

Damned, HE was right.

~smiles~


And I moron went through all the relationship crap...

*slaps forehead*



NOW SEND ME ALL YOUR NUDE PICTURES, WALKING VAGINA!

 

[CeriseNin]

Chanukah special : Ham. = Fail

Ohhhhh, hahaha.

Thanks...

 

[LearningSub]

deleted

 

[Primalex]

*scratches his chin, pondering whether it is bad to hijack a CM thread or not*

*after all, CM threads are sacred*

*like a Cthulhu shrine*

*You do not anger Cthulhu*

"Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn."




*makes the decision that she already gets great real life sex, she can't have everything*