Debating a Few Philosophies of BDSM - Love, Kink, Lust, Etc

[Netzach]

Don't forget, though, the agency of the submissive.

It's intoxicating to feed oneself to the tiger.

I have a genuine question for the submissives on the forum. How naive are we? At what age, or with what experience, do we stop being naive?

I know I was pretty naive as a young child. But by the time I was 13, I knew when I was in danger. I didn't always listen to my own warning bells, but they always went off in time. And sometimes I liked acting in spite of them. At what age do I become responsible for my own actions?

I don't think it has anything to do with orientation, age, or gender. I'm talking about what happens when someone walks into a new, sexually charged situation, after a prior lifetime of vanilla.

It's intimidating to encounter a group, I don't care who you are or how Dominant and well adjusted you are and how huge your nutsack is -

but there is a valuable safety in numbers - physical, political, and a mental comfort to be found.

Do we really need to circulate a myth that the decades of work people have done to create a place for themselves where they can exist and find each other - is a menace to society?

What the fuck, let's just dig up the Regan administration if we have that much of a death wish.

I meant cutting the young out of the herd purely metaphorically.

Believe it nor not I came into SM very insecure and very trusting of a lot of bad advice from a lot of well meaning people with bad things to say about each other in a peyton place kind of way. My entrance into SM coincided with the realization that I was entitled to forumlate ideas independently of my family, what can I say, late to the game.

There is a LOT of dysfunction in the scene. However, risk to your person is mitigated by it, not perpetuated.

I didn't come to that conclusion for about five years. I think wide eyed novice lasts for a while. This was never a sprint for me, though.

 

[BLoved]

Doesn't a "debate" require an advocate for an opposing point of view?

It would appear you've been unable to recruit anyone with whom you can "debate".

If preaching to the choir was what you intended, congratulations on your 'accomplishment'.

~smile~

 

[rosco rathbone]

White Knight shit.

/thread

 

[kittyn_]

I don't see how anyone is 'preaching to the choir' here. The main concern/statement I've seen made is that the suggested articles are rather biased. Even if we accept the definitions of 'love' and 'casual' presented, there's no 'give' or exceptions to the rules expressed.

I don't see a clear cut line between 'Love'/'Lust, or 'Casual'/monogamy, which seems to be implied in the two article type thingies presented. I don't think many people can see the subject in such a simple and straighteforward way, which is causing a lot of the issues I've seen on the thread.

I don't see how BLoved's opinion of the matter covers the actual relationships I've seen, either mine or others, kink or vanilla. Yeah, there's always risk involved in relationships, the pursuit of relationnships, and sex.

It doesn't mean that a 'normal' chick going to a bar is any safer than an unattached submissive going to a group event. It's all risky, to some extent, but I'm going to assume that most people know to go with someone, or let someone know where they're going and when to expect to hear from them. It's common sense in any situation. You cover your own ass, end of story.

I'm a bit off topic, but that is the main thing presented to me in the reading that is irritating. the assumption that submissive (females) can't use enough common sense to take care of themselves. We've survived this long while making our own decisions, we can make it through a party, thank you very much.

 

[CutieMouse]

Doesn't a "debate" require an advocate for an opposing point of view?

It would appear you've been unable to recruit anyone with whom you can "debate".

If preaching to the choir was what you intended, congratulations on your 'accomplishment'.

~smile~

You are refusing to defend your position. You refused to start the discussion. You are criticizing me for using your writings to present you position on lieu of your participation in the thread. I was trying to mount both pro and con, because you abdicated that responsibility, and have yet to being anything of consequence to the discussion at hand.

It is quite difficult to have a debate when the opposing viwer (you) refuses to support, defend, expoundob, or otherwise explain his position. Jesus Nan, I've given you a graveyards worth of bones here and you're still bitching? Ye gods.

Do what you want with the thread for the rest of the evening... I'm off to enjoy a delicious dinner cooked by my lover, music, and several hours of mind blowing sex.

 

[BiBunny]

Do what you want with the thread for the rest of the evening... I'm off to enjoy a delicious dinner cooked by my lover, music, and several hours of mind blowing sex.

Bitch.

 

[00Syd]

Don't forget, though, the agency of the submissive.

It's intoxicating to feed oneself to the tiger.

I have a genuine question for the submissives on the forum. How naive are we? At what age, or with what experience, do we stop being naive?

I know I was pretty naive as a young child. But by the time I was 13, I knew when I was in danger. I didn't always listen to my own warning bells, but they always went off in time. And sometimes I liked acting in spite of them. At what age do I become responsible for my own actions?

I can see how that would be true... but it isn't true for me.

I'm not sure I could say when I stopped completely being naive, I don't think I ever will stop being naive about at least some things, but I can say pretty definitively when I stopped being naive about the BDSM scene. It was, very early on, when I realized that my "mentor" didn't actually have my best interests at heart, and only began an interaction with me to get into my pants. That realization was a huge turnoff, and made me much more wary of who I became involved with. But then again, that's not even really an experience that's scene-specific. That could have happened with any friend. But that realization, was what made me aware and made me take more responsibility for myself. I don't need someone to guide me through the scene. I can take care of myself.

And anyway, I don't think anyone can totally stop being naive about everything. Maybe I am still naive about a lot of the scene and just fooling myself. It's really difficult to know.

Not sure any of that made sense. My ideas on the topic are pretty confused.

But an awareness of some of the negatives of the scene do not, in any way, take away from it's many positives. I would rather have this community than no community at all.

 

[00Syd]

/thread

*curtsy*

 

[rida]

Doesn't a "debate" require an advocate for an opposing point of view?

It would appear you've been unable to recruit anyone with whom you can "debate".

If preaching to the choir was what you intended, congratulations on your 'accomplishment'.

~smile~

The problem is that so far you have not come up with any follow up to your points. And the starting point of your opinion have no credibility either unless you expand on it.

Let see if I got your main points right:

1) All PYL but the ones vehemently against "casual BDSM" of any sort, only want young naive flesh to abuse without having to commit to a love relationship.
2) All pyl are naive and ripe for the taking, and as such need protection.
3) BDSM as a lifestyle, only promotes superficial relationship based on abuse and unethical conduit.
4) Public spaces are hell pits where only abuse take place.
5) Munches are places where the pure and naive gets brainwashed into giving up real loving relationships in the name of what is proclaimed as the cool thing AKA casual BDSM play

My experience has been different. Others have said the same.
Nobody is claiming it is all roses and kisses. And everybody is acknowledging that as in any group there will be predators, naive persons and everything in between (from the casual commitment phobics to the HNG to the ones looking for love.)

I don't know but from what I've heard and read, US high-schools have a higher risk of emotionally abusive dynamics than dungeons.

 

[BLoved]

You are refusing to defend your position.

Against what? Character assasination?

For the benefit of whom, your Rent-a-Mob?

You refused to start the discussion.

You were the one who felt the need for a dedicated thread without reference to my writings, a "discussion" about the topic of ethics. When did it become my responsibility to start it for you?

You are criticizing me for using your writings to present you position on lieu of your participation in the thread.

You were the one who said you wanted a "discussion" without reference to my writing. I told you I was interested. So look at your OP and tell me how that worked out.

Has anyone whose ethics oppose yours stepped forward to "debate" or "discuss" the issues you said you want to "discuss"? I see only those who advocate casual 'bdsm'. And each of them believes he or she derives some benefit from their advocacy: popularity.

I see no defense of the lack of ethics involved in casual 'bdsm'. Only personal attacks directed at me.

~shrug~

You obviously wanted to give everyone a chance to flame me and hoped I'd start the thread myself. Instead you had to take on the responsibility for setting this thread on fire and I've just sat back and watched you.

If this be a mature and responsible effort to discuss the issues without reference to my writing, you've obviously failed. You haven't even encouraged anyone else with similar views to speak out.

Once again we hear the casual advocates sing the praises of casual 'bdsm' for the sake of their popularity, if not their next victim.

Since this is what I told people to expect, you've only provided me with more credibility while discrediting yourself, considering the thread you initially said you wanted.

You've proven nothing but that you can and will shout down anyone whose ethics disagree with yours. Dissent is not permitted and should anyone be so bold as to voice them they can expect much the same as you've attempted to pull on me.

I was trying to mount both pro and con, because you abdicated that responsibility, and have yet to being anything of consequence to the discussion at hand.

It is quite difficult to have a debate when the opposing viwer (you) refuses to support, defend, expoundob, or otherwise explain his position. Jesus Nan, I've given you a graveyards worth of bones here and you're still bitching? Ye gods.

Do what you want with the thread for the rest of the evening... I'm off to enjoy a delicious dinner cooked by my lover, music, and several hours of mind blowing sex.

~smile~

And when you return you will still be left singing to the choir.

You have only demonstrated how touchy casual advocates are about a practice they cannot justify through ethics.

They are no better than a howling mob when faced with someone who challenges their unethical practices.

 

[Keroin]

They are no better than a howling mob when faced with someone who challenges their unethical practices.

*howls*

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

*howls*

~smile~

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

~smile~

And when you return you will still be left singing to the choir.

You have only demonstrated how touchy casual advocates are about a practice they cannot justify through ethics.

They are no better than a howling mob when faced with someone who challenges their unethical practices.

You obviously don't feel strongly about causal bdsm and its consequences or you would be fighting tooth and nail against each person in this thread to change their mind or at least attempt to educate some of the naive subs out there that might be reading this thread.

It's very easy to just deflect as you are and claim to be a martyr for the cause against the unruly mob. But it takes a strong person to fight against the masses for what they truly believe in. No matter if they perceive the odds are stacked against them.

I guess you are just not strong enough. Or don't care enough.

Either way it's a pity to see.

 

[00Syd]

You obviously don't feel strongly about causal bdsm and its consequences or you would be fighting tooth and nail against each person in this thread to change their mind or at least attempt to educate some of the naive subs out there that might be reading this thread.

It's very easy to just deflect as you are and claim to be a martyr for the cause against the unruly mob. But it takes a strong person to fight against the masses for what they truly believe in. No matter if they perceive the odds are stacked against them.

I guess you are just not strong enough. Or don't care enough.

Either way it's a pity to see.

Like I said before:

ETA: It's easy (and annoying) to talk about how everyone wants to "stomp out your opposing views" and difficult (and admirable) to actually try and make an argument for your case.

Very annoying.

 

[rida]

Against what? Character assasination?

*snip*

You have only demonstrated how touchy casual advocates are about a practice they cannot justify through ethics.

They are no better than a howling mob when faced with someone who challenges their unethical practices.

It is funny that you have chosen as the recipient of your "righteous" indignation one of the posters that I've never heard being in favor of casual BDSM (and casual relationships in general).

And it is funny how you have decided that she is the ring-leader of the BSDM board mobs.

If this is how you "read" characters ... I hope you will not become victim of an abusive submissive. They exist, they are out there, and even PYL need protection at times.



Now for some lighthearted humour (with the u ):

*howls*

Back beast, BACK!

 

[chy_girl]

CM: "I for one would be willing to discuss "casual BDSM/predators/True Love/etc" in a separate thread. And by separate thread I do not mean a posting of links of BL's writings. I mean a discussion."

Please allow me to reiterate. YOU were the one to turn down CM's very kind and honest offer to start a discussion after sicking up your opinions all over other threads. If this isn't to your satisfaction or isn't the discussion topic that you had intended, by all means, use your own freedom of speech and START THE FUCKING THREAD!

~smiles~

Doesn't a "debate" require an advocate for an opposing point of view?

It would appear you've been unable to recruit anyone with whom you can "debate".

If preaching to the choir was what you intended, congratulations on your 'accomplishment'.

~smile~

Believe it or not, many of us here are able to have actual discussions... an exchange of ideas that might not fall under our own values or beliefs. Many people here would actually welcome such a thread. You, sir, and I mean that in the most vanilla way possible, are the one not showing up to the field.

So if I may... grow a set and state your opinion or go home. The passive-aggressive, manipulative bullshit is growing tiresome.

~smile~

I have a genuine question for the submissives on the forum. How naive are we? At what age, or with what experience, do we stop being naive?

I think naivety depends on individual experience. When I first started here I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground, but it was based less on lack of knowledge about BDSM than it was lack of knowledge about intimate relationships in general. It's gotten much better over the last six or seven months, but a lot of that had to do with being able to take a situation to people I trusted.

There were times when something wasn't sitting right but I couldn't pinpoint what it was. By having trustworthy people here and in my local BDSM community that were able to name what it was I wasn't able to identify was (is) not only a learning experience, but also helped to the self confidence to trust some of the less experienced instincts.

Naivety has a strong correlation to experience (or the lack thereof), and experience is the one thing you need 15 minutes before you get it. Thankfully, we never stop growing and we never stop learning. That in and of itself gives me hope that I'll not keep repeating the same mistakes.

And a note for CutieMouse:
You, my dear, are a very cool lady. Thank you.

 

[BLoved]

Please allow me to reiterate. YOU were the one to turn down CM's very kind and honest offer to start a discussion after sicking up your opinions all over other threads. If this isn't to your satisfaction or isn't the discussion topic that you had intended, by all means, use your own freedom of speech and START THE FUCKING THREAD!

~smiles~



Believe it or not, many of us here are able to have actual discussions... an exchange of ideas that might not fall under our own values or beliefs. Many people here would actually welcome such a thread. You, sir, and I mean that in the most vanilla way possible, are the one not showing up to the field.

So if I may... grow a set and state your opinion or go home. The passive-aggressive, manipulative bullshit is growing tiresome.

~smile~



And a note for CutieMouse:
You, my dear, are a very cool lady. Thank you.

~smile~

Your disappointment is showing.

Rather obvious you and your friends were eagerly anticipating a flame-fest with me as the target.

Instead you and your friends get to parade around on your own, protesting that anyone should have values that differ from yours.

So much for 'diversity' in your perfect 'bdsm' world.

Your intolerance for beliefs and ethics which disagree with you is made manifest.

I notice your failure to 'encourage' anyone with ethics similar to mine to participate. They exist, of course. My essays and stories would not be as highly rated by so many if they didn't.

How can we account for your failure to encourage them to join in?

Couldn't be the character assasination, the eagerness to flame, the need to eviscerate those who disagree, now could it.

Couldn't be your animosity for those who do not share your fanatical views regarding the "One True Way": casual 'bdsm'.

Couldn't be how easily you target a single individual for your vitriol.

No, it must be something else. Some other reason why you haven't attracted any opposition to your 'debate'.

Whatever could that reason be ... hmmmm?

 

[rosco rathbone]

"White Knight" is just as legitimate as any other perv, but it's no more and no less than just another kink.

The big list of warning signs linked in the OP is published on an erotica site and that's what it is: erotica.

One person's idea of what gets them hot: "I'm here to save you from the predators".

 

[chy_girl]

~smile~

Your disappointment is showing.

Rather obvious you and your friends were eagerly anticipating a flame-fest with me as the target.

Instead you and your friends get to parade around on your own, protesting that anyone should have values that differ from yours.
*snip*

If you read that as disappointment, you need to re-calibrate your human factor. It isn't disappointment, it's tired of the bullshit.

And just out of curiosity, how the fuck do you know that my views and opinions are different from yours? I've not made a statement either way because I'm still waiting for you to put down your opinion in a nice, cohesive thread. It's not happening and yet you are the one bitching about being flamed.

I, personally, have no problem when someone has different values than myself. It's actually rather enjoyable to be able to exchange ideas and concepts. You are not exchanging ideas and concepts, you're acting like an immature child.

Now, if you would choose to write your values and opinions down in one thread dedicated to the subject, I'd be happy to have a discussion with you. I will not, however A) have half-discussions spread all over different threads in the Cafe and B) continue to listen to you bitch and whine about "But it isn't right..." if you act like a fucking man and take the initiative to do it the "right" way and C) continue trying to have a discussion with someone who's only form communication is smiling in a condescending manner.

P.S.
Telling someone that X is X without any explanation as to how or why X is X isn't a discussion. It's simply being repetitive.

 

[JMohegan]

"White Knight" is just as legitimate as any other perv, but it's no more and no less than just another kink.

The big list of warning signs linked in the OP is published on an erotica site and that's what it is: erotica.

One person's idea of what gets them hot: "I'm here to save you from the predators".

Haha - true.

But if that really is the guy's kink, he's a tad heavy-handed, no?

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

P.S.
Telling someone that X is X without any explanation as to how or why X is X isn't a discussion. It's simply being repetitive.

LOL

I think we're getting repetitive now in telling him that he's being repetitive and bleating the same lines over and over without any backing arguments.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Haha - true.

But if that really is the guy's kink, he's a tad heavy-handed, no?

If he has fetishised the concept, a possibility I think you mentioned elsewhere in relation to a group, methinks that would explain the heavyhandedness.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Haha - true.

But if that really is the guy's kink, he's a tad heavy-handed, no?

I dunno. Just reading over that essay I got the sense of heavy breathing.

 

[chy_girl]

If he has fetishised the concept, a possibility I think you mentioned elsewhere in relation to a group, methinks that would explain the heavyhandedness.

Point taken.

It's hard to give up on the fact that someone is missing all of their Reasonable Human Being gene...

Good god, we're a group of masochists... =/

 

[JMohegan]

If he has fetishised the concept, a possibility I think you mentioned elsewhere in relation to a group, methinks that would explain the heavyhandedness.

Definitely - though there are people who do this who are much smoother. If this guy really is posting straight up, his M.O. reflects an appalling lack of subtlety.

I dunno. Just reading over that essay I got the sense of heavy breathing.

I lol'd!

The 2nd piece linked above is just castlerealm, regurgitated.