First officially genderless human being

[Stella_Omega]

On the passport and everything!
Norrie May-Welby

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

Yikes, there's some considerable food for thought.

 

[Nimbikarana]

what pronouns to use

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

There's a whole swag of gender neutral pronouns that have been thought up.

I personally didn't think much of them, but thought if people wanted to use them, I'd try not to cringe at the spellings, like I cringe at D/s related slash speak on the intarwebz.

But now, I can see that there's going to need to be some consensus, because they'll be becoming more prevalent in the future.

 

[kelli_qcd]

ZIE??.. HIR???... hmmmmmm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norrie_May-Welby
The New South Wales Government recognised Norrie as being neither male or female - as hormonally, psychologically and physically zie was neither male or female. Referred to as "zie" (rather than she/he) and "hir" (rather than her/his), Norrie began male-to-female reassignment when zie was 23, but felt 'uncomfortable living solely as a woman'.

 

[HarlotMinx]

oooooh, that's not going to end out well at all!
If the doctors can't tell hormonally their gender then that means they have no estrogen or testosterone in their body. That's just asking for a lot of medical problems down the line. Bodies are meant to run on hormones, they're vital for a number of functions. I mean, on a psychological level, I'm all for what makes them happy but on a physical level... I worry.

 

[Stella_Omega]

"hormonally" my ass! Ze has plenty of hormones, Minx. Once ze stopped taking estrogen, the testosterone took back over. It's more that the outward signs, I.E. the genitals, are kinda hard to figure-- especially for thick-headed state officials who have never thought about the possibility.

Ze has a 'pussy' created by surgeons-- which looks... "improvised" shall we say, small breasts, wide shoulders, adam's apple, is a bit hirsute, strong muscles and little body fat. The face is truly androgynous, IMO. Ze says when ze's around women ze ID's as a woman, when ze's around gay men ze's a "big queen."

I'll tell you one thing, this is not the kind of "Shemale" that the fetishists around here fantasize about.

 

[HarlotMinx]

"hormonally" my ass! Ze has plenty of hormones, Minx. Once ze stopped taking estrogen, the testosterone took back over. It's more that the outward signs, I.E. the genitals, are kinda hard to figure-- especially for thick-headed state officials who have never thought about the possibility.

Not according to wikipdia. I was responding to the part where they said that hormonally they couldn't tell.... which is possible if ze was taking antiandrogens by themselves.

I'll tell you one thing, this is not the kind of "Shemale" that the fetishists around here fantasize about.

Very few MTF's are..... that's mostly a product of the porn industry though. Just as very few lesbians are the kind that men go around fetishizing. I think men in general tend to develop unreal expectations when it comes to sex. Realistically women do too but in different ways that have less to do with the physicality. I think gay FTM's have it hardest because of this.

 

[lightsaver]

A few comments:
Norrie chose to be a 'neuter' - I don't think pronouns matter when someone wants to be considered neither female or male. Pronouns, are limited to either male or female, not so?
Isn't that Norrie's point? To be neither?

Just, to be?

Norrie looks like Ally Sheedy to me.

Also, I tend to relate and/or respond favourably to the group I am hanging out with at that point in time. I just think its human to adapt to one's social animal self. Never once did I consider it otherwise.
If I am in a group of painters, chances are good we all talk about paint. And that's fine by me.
If I am hanging out with women, I feel more feminine too.
I do not consider that gender related. I consider it human/social related.

*shrugs* carry on.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not according to wikipdia. I was responding to the part where they said that hormonally they couldn't tell.... which is possible if ze was taking antiandrogens by themselves.

One wonders if "hormonally" is *coughbullshitcough* added to the legalese because it sounds so authortative

Very few MTF's are..... that's mostly a product of the porn industry though. Just as very few lesbians are the kind that men go around fetishizing. I think men in general tend to develop unreal expectations when it comes to sex. Realistically women do too but in different ways that have less to do with the physicality. I think gay FTM's have it hardest because of this.

Speaking personallyt, I would love to move the fetishists into their own forum... I'd visit it, no doubt about that! But mr brigg's threads are very off-putting to the transpeople I know-- I've sent them here and gotten very angry responses.

 

[HarlotMinx]

One wonders if "hormonally" is *coughbullshitcough* added to the legalese because it sounds so authortativeSpeaking personallyt, I would love to move the fetishists into their own forum... I'd visit it, no doubt about that! But mr brigg's threads are very off-putting to the transpeople I know-- I've sent them here and gotten very angry responses.

frankly I can understand their reaction. I mean given, the fact is this site is a site devoted to erotic literature. But even so, I think it's a bit silly at times how much this thread contrasts in comparison to something like the BDSM thread which has much more reason to be sexually based and yet manages to have more serious conversations or conversations about relationships......or at least conversations as opposed to porn threads.

 

[Stella_Omega]

frankly I can understand their reaction. I mean given, the fact is this site is a site devoted to erotic literature. But even so, I think it's a bit silly at times how much this thread contrasts in comparison to something like the BDSM thread which has much more reason to be sexually based and yet manages to have more serious conversations or conversations about relationships......or at least conversations as opposed to porn threads.

My friends do a lot of porn, though, and of all types... it's the objectifying, and fetishising and this assumption that "shemales" are actually trans, that is so insulting to someone who is struggling through the process of finding themself.

Then too, people in transition are pretty damn prickly in general.

And I have nothing against fetish. It's part of the Queer umbrella. It's just taht fetishists tend to eschew human contact really-- they are into a symbol. And GLBT folk presumably, come here to get human contact.

 

[HarlotMinx]

My friends do a lot of porn, though, and of all types... it's the objectifying, and fetishising and this assumption that "shemales" are actually trans, that is so insulting to someone who is struggling through the process of finding themself.

Then too, people in transition are pretty damn prickly in general.

And I have nothing against fetish. It's part of the Queer umbrella. It's just taht fetishists tend to eschew human contact really-- they are into a symbol. And GLBT folk presumably, come here to get human contact.

I actually did a whole thread on non consensual objectification a year back. I think in a lot of porn they are purposefully objectifying the niche the porn fills. For example, their is a noticeable difference between lesbian porn made for the lesbian community and lesbian porn made for het males... I know many people would say that's silly and they're all nude pictures but it's true. I've seen plenty of trans porn that actually doesn't objectify the person as a "shemale". But yes, non consensual objectification is never a healthy practice whether used for any social group or individual. Hell, I know a large number of MTFs who will not date men not because they aren't attracted to men but because they're afraid of the number of fetishists. Instead they stick to dating women or other transexuals. While I'm on the topic I wanted to ask, am I wrong in feeling their is a huge difference between crossdressing and transvestism? I mean, I've been to a decent amount of drag shows and even kinged myself but I just... don't see it as transvestism. I only ask because we've had a on and off debate in my sexual psychology class about if their is a difference and whether transvestism is objectifying the gender. I kind of stayed neutral on that last point during the talk.

On a side note, I'm sorry for hijacking the thread, I didn't mean to take it off course.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hijacking's fine with me!


But you know what... I think this forum has been hijacked. Do you think a fetish forum would be a good idea? I betcha it would get more hits than GLBT, if it spins off...

While I'm on the topic I wanted to ask, am I wrong in feeling their is a huge difference between crossdressing and transvestism? I mean, I've been to a decent amount of drag shows and even kinged myself but I just... don't see it as transvestism.

I think there is not such a huge difference, myself. I guess you can sort of say that Dragging is performance, and aimed at getting a reaction from onlookers, while crossdressing is more self-oriented? But for almost everyone that does either, there are elements of both involved, don't you think?

I only ask because we've had a on and off debate in my sexual psychology class about if their is a difference and whether transvestism is objectifying the gender. I kind of stayed neutral on that last point during the talk.

Has your class looked into mirror neurons?

I have a theory that we very often use objects-- such as clothing-- to stimulate an empathic response function. He puts on silky stockings and feels like a woman. it isn't just for show. I wear a tux, and-- damn I'm pimpin'.

I don't think questions like that have a single answer, ever. I get tired of people claiming that objectification is some kind of original sin. Mostly, we all have to go through a process of getting closer before we can get inside...

 

[haurni]

If I may be permitted to temporarily continue the hijacking, I'd like to ask HarlotMinx and Stella_Omega (and others, e.g. Gi_Venus & Esperanza_Hidalgo) for some more information on the shemale vs trans distinction that's been made here.

I am a bi-ish male with (what I suppose is) a fetish for both shemales and lesbians. I also understand that most porn is made by and for the gratification of men and doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the groups portrayed (trans and lesbian individuals in this instance), focusing instead on a sort of siliconized fantasy version. The danger, of course, is that people mistake the constructed fantasy for the reality, which I believe is the point being made here by Harlot & Stella.

Frankly, I would love to see some lesbian porn made by and for women and trans porn made by and for the trans community. Please educate me by private message or by posting here (or referring me to or starting another thread).

BTW, Stella, I've been out of the neuroscience field for the last 5-7 years so I'm not up on the latest discoveries, but the existence of mirror neurons only shows that there are specific cells in the brain that respond when others perform actions. Just as there are cells that respond specifically to faces or edges or sound or light frequencies or to the position of the body in space. I think it's a long way from there to implicating a specific brain system in fetishistic behaviour, or saying (e.g.) that homosexuality is 'located' in the suprachiasmatic nucleus. Those behaviours are likely to be emergent properties of a large number of systems acting in concert and thus a product of many diverse physical and environmental factors. (And for those who may misread what I've just said, I'm not stating that one necessarily has any 'choice' about gender identity or orientation.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oooh, I LOVE me some intelligent response! But-- tired, so i hope i get this right

If I may be permitted to temporarily continue the hijacking, I'd like to ask HarlotMinx and Stella_Omega (and others, e.g. Gi_Venus & Esperanza_Hidalgo) for some more information on the shemale vs trans distinction that's been made here.

I am a bi-ish male with (what I suppose is) a fetish for both shemales and lesbians. I also understand that most porn is made by and for the gratification of men and doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of the groups portrayed (trans and lesbian individuals in this instance), focusing instead on a sort of siliconized fantasy version. The danger, of course, is that people mistake the constructed fantasy for the reality, which I believe is the point being made here by Harlot & Stella.

As i understand the use of the word 'shemale" around here, it refers to men with silicone boobs, and that works for me They are constructed fantasies, exactly, and have set themselves up for sexual commerce.

A transsexual is a member of the sex they have transited to. transwomen are women. Transmen are men. They *might* be sex-workers or a general horndog, but they could have been that in their birth sex, right? The need to switch sexes is not for fetish reasons-- as Norrie found out. Like me-- my desire to have a dick-- or get my dick back, which is what it feels like-- has nothing to do with my gender identity, it's more about my sexual desires, which is why it's never been the all-pervading obsession that drives the rest of my life. Even though it ought to have been.

Frankly, I would love to see some lesbian porn made by and for women and trans porn made by and for the trans community. Please educate me by private message or by posting here (or referring me to or starting another thread).

Easy! check out the crashpad.

BTW, Stella, I've been out of the neuroscience field for the last 5-7 years so I'm not up on the latest discoveries, but the existence of mirror neurons only shows that there are specific cells in the brain that respond when others perform actions. Just as there are cells that respond specifically to faces or edges or sound or light frequencies or to the position of the body in space. I think it's a long way from there to implicating a specific brain system in fetishistic behaviour, or saying (e.g.) that homosexuality is 'located' in the suprachiasmatic nucleus. Those behaviours are likely to be emergent properties of a large number of systems acting in concert and thus a product of many diverse physical and environmental factors. (And for those who may misread what I've just said, I'm not stating that one necessarily has any 'choice' about gender identity or orientation.)

Ohshit... I'm too tired tonight to go hunt for the citations!
Are you really a neuroscientist, retired? I wanna talk to you! really! I am gobbling up David Buller and Jaak Panksepp at the moment-- I do research assistance for an anthro guy, and myself am kinda sociology/activist/novelist oriented.

And I DO know that a little learning is a dangerous thing, so I try to keep the bullets out of that gun.

But real quick, while it's obvious that gender orientation and identity are extremely complex, what with the collision between biology and culture and random imprinting factors... fetish is a bit different and (I think) much more simplistic. More Pavlovian-ish.

But what I've been reading suggests that mirror neurons, which facilitate emotion contagion (like yawning when someone else does) are the evolutionary predecessor to our highly developed empathic process, like the way we feel the sorrow that we read in another person's face. You can see it happening in the thread I started, where some people have expressed emotions that my expressions created for them.

So, i think these neural constructions play a big part in our sexual responses once a situation has been brought into alignment with our preferences-- or the opposite, in fact ,since the intimation of sexuality between two men will stimulate a homophobe into a killing rage because damn them monkey-see-monkey-do reflexes, making us get horny even when the bible tells us it's RONNNG.

Eesh!

 

[HarlotMinx]

Hijacking's fine with me!
But you know what... I think this forum has been hijacked. Do you think a fetish forum would be a good idea? I betcha it would get more hits than GLBT, if it spins off.../QUOTE]

I thought that this WAS the fetish forum and the news and issues formed as like a "no seriously, this forum is REALLY about lgbt" forum.

I think there is not such a huge difference, myself. I guess you can sort of say that Dragging is performance, and aimed at getting a reaction from onlookers, while crossdressing is more self-oriented? But for almost everyone that does either, there are elements of both involved, don't you think?

Well I'm not talking about dragging compared to crossdressing, I see the two as the same. I'm thinking more comparing someone who likes walking around in womens or mens clothing because they like it or it's just comfortable to the people who do it specifically because of some sexual arousal. Most drag queens/kings do not do drag because of a sexual gratification.... i mean I'm sure some do but as a whole it's different. I might go out dressed as a guy because... well fuck it boxers are comfortable and I don't feel like looking "pretty". It's funny because I've really confused people by going around one day in skirts and tanktops and the next in jeans and baggy tshirts; some people really think that lesbians are either butch or fem but separate. I don't get a sexual thrill our of the boxers, no more than a thong. However their are people who wear clothing for sexual gratification. I see that as actual transvestism... not necessarily bad off the bat but different from cross dressing.

Has your class looked into mirror neurons?

Yes, we talked about it except the example explained how piggybanks could be sexy......

I have a theory that we very often use objects-- such as clothing-- to stimulate an empathic response function. He puts on silky stockings and feels like a woman. it isn't just for show. I wear a tux, and-- damn I'm pimpin'.

*hands you a pimp hat* In some ways what you just described worries me. Okay so, their is nothing wrong with the case you specifically mentioned but lets say we take a different man, this man likes to not just wear stockings but likes to go overboard on the frills, exaggerated makeup, the insane heels.... everything is waaaaay exaggerated. Now, I'm not in any way saying his fantasy is wrong or that he isn't entitled to it and I'm not going to judge the morality of it, it isn't my point. What worries me is what if he does it to see himself as female because that's how they see women? I guess what I worry about is if that's how that men really sees women, as a bimbo? Now to be fair I pointed this exact point out to some FTMs who had somehow managed to tap into the "teenage gangster" mentality, it was totally surreal to watch these FTMs walking around with jeans almost to their knees. I don't think either case reflects a healthy gender view.

I don't think questions like that have a single answer, ever. I get tired of people claiming that objectification is some kind of original sin. Mostly, we all have to go through a process of getting closer before we can get inside...

Objectification isn't a original sin, hell it's even a kink of mine (when I welcome it) but objectification liberally does cause people to take the humanity out of a person and you get cases like people thinking Muslims are terrorists or situations like rape or discrimination. It makes it that much easier when a person sees everyone as just alike because of some trait.

 

[HarlotMinx]

You know I feel like 3/4 my posts involve me trying to separate out what I'm talking about so I'm not accused of some type of hatred. Like in that last post I think I spent a whole paragraph separating out that I wasn't saying all crossdressing was unhealthy but just a particular subtype of a type.... you know you spend too much time on religious and political debate forums if more than help your post is trying to cover your own ass against people putting words in your mouth.

 

[Stella_Omega]

You know I feel like 3/4 my posts involve me trying to separate out what I'm talking about so I'm not accused of some type of hatred. Like in that last post I think I spent a whole paragraph separating out that I wasn't saying all crossdressing was unhealthy but just a particular subtype of a type.... you know you spend too much time on religious and political debate forums if more than help your post is trying to cover your own ass against people putting words in your mouth.

Yeah, and they will anyway.

More tomorrow love, I'm going crosseyed and can't think!

 

[Etoile]

it's the objectifying, and fetishising and this assumption that "shemales" are actually trans, that is so insulting to someone who is struggling through the process of finding themself.

This sounds like invalidating their experiences. You referred to shemales as "men with silicone boobs" but that sounds derogatory to me, in a parallel way to what some fetishists call "the best of both worlds." Both statements say that the MTF people who choose to have top surgery but not bottom surgery are nothing more than what their bodies define.

More precisely, how do you know that they aren't struggling through the process of finding themselves? I have seen exactly ONE example of a man who got breast implants for the fun of it, and that was on a body modification website. I highly doubt that anyone who is living as a woman and still whipping out her dick for porn is NOT struggling with identity.

The idea that "shemales are (not) actually trans" is just as insulting to them, as you feel they are to someone "genuinely" struggling with gender identity issues.

 

[Etoile]

But you know what... I think this forum has been hijacked. Do you think a fetish forum would be a good idea? I betcha it would get more hits than GLBT, if it spins off...

This forum isn't about fetishes in general, though. Posts about foot fetishes, breast fetishes, leather fetishes, they all get sent elsewhere. The posts that are here are about gender bending fetishes - men wearing women's underwear, fantasizing about people who are outwardly female but still have a penis, etc. The forum has not been hijacked just because you wish it dealt with more specific issues. (Mind you, I am playing moderator here, not expressing my own feelings.) GLBT Chatter is for non-heterosexual stuff. If something is better suited to another forum - how to shave your balls for your man, what it means for a man to submit anally to a woman - I send it elsewhere (How To and BDSM Talk, respectively). Anything else is acceptable here. This forum was NEVER about the issues many people wish it was about. Since day one (in 2003) these threads - the ones you refer to as "fetish" - have dominated the board. It hasn't been hijacked, it just is what it is.

I thought that this WAS the fetish forum and the news and issues formed as like a "no seriously, this forum is REALLY about lgbt" forum.

This is more or less correct. The News & Issues forum arose from the many, many complaints that "serious talk" (gay marriage, gay adoption, etc) was getting lost in the sex-related threads. Lit is obviously a sex board, but some people wanted to discuss non-sex issues. So I had the News & Issues forum created. But a thread about a woman wanting to please her female lover is no less valid than a thread about a man wanting to wear panties. It just happens that we have MORE of the latter and LESS of the former.

I have always said that GLBT Chatter is what you make of it. The forum was started at my request back in 2003, and I've been the moderator since then. People have complained for seven years about the content of this forum. Never once have I had the ability to tell everyone "okay, let's refocus on the REAL gay issues" - Lit is for the people, not for the moderators. The people will talk about what they want to talk about.

If you make a new thread on a particular topic and you're worried about it getting lost in the porno shuffle, use the "Instant Notification by Email" feature and keep an eye on it. Just don't expect people to stop discussing topics you dislike so you can focus on topics you DO like.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This sounds like invalidating their experiences. You referred to shemales as "men with silicone boobs" but that sounds derogatory to me, in a parallel way to what some fetishists call "the best of both worlds." Both statements say that the MTF people who choose to have top surgery but not bottom surgery are nothing more than what their bodies define.

More precisely, how do you know that they aren't struggling through the process of finding themselves? I have seen exactly ONE example of a man who got breast implants for the fun of it, and that was on a body modification website. I highly doubt that anyone who is living as a woman and still whipping out her dick for porn is NOT struggling with identity.

The idea that "shemales are (not) actually trans" is just as insulting to them, as you feel they are to someone "genuinely" struggling with gender identity issues.

You're right, etoile, I apologise.

I fell into the same trap that Minx did, when she ascribed values to the different quantifications and (perceived) motivations for cross-dressing. And for fucksake I am writing a story right now, about an mtf who didn't have her bottom surgery-- you'd think I'd know better!

Mostly, my (hands-on, up close and personal, and varied, albeit ten years gone now) experience is that MTF's who are doing estrogen don't have big hard dicks. The pics and vids that briggs loves so much, I don't know how to parse those. I LIKE them, for sure, but they don't match my experiences of trans people so much.

 

[Etoile]

Now then! As for the topic of this thread.

I found this on hir website:

In the "straight world", I was treated as a liar if I did not reveal my transsexuality, and a pariah if I did. I was abused by men, sometimes for being a transsexual, often for just being female. I was taken from a nightclub by five guys who, unaware of my transsexual status, raped me.

All this happened within the first year of changing sex.

I stopped going to straight nightclubs. I no longer wanted to live as a normal heterosexual woman.

Does that sound to you like a man who got scared of what women have to endure on a daily basis and wanted to run away from it? Zie might have had other reasons, but I read it as "I couldn't hack it as a woman."

YMMV.

 

[Etoile]

You're right, etoile, I apologise.

I fell into the same trap that Minx did, when she ascribed values to the different quantifications and (perceived) motivations for cross-dressing. And for fucksake I am writing a story right now, about an mtf who didn't have her bottom surgery-- you'd think I'd know better!

Mostly, my (hands-on, up close and personal, and varied, albeit ten years gone now) experience is that MTF's who are doing estrogen don't have big hard dicks. The pics and vids that briggs loves so much, I don't know how to parse those. I LIKE them, for sure, but they don't match my experiences of trans people so much.

Oh yes, I agree with you completely! If you're on female hormones, the chances that you are getting massive erections on a regular basis are pretty slim. But it's not the fantasy, and some performers play into that fantasy. I'm sure the reasons they do porn are similar to the reasons anybody else does - to feel beautiful, to make money, to rebel, etc. They just happen to have recognized a niche and found that they could be successful within that niche.

But yeah, the genitals of both MTF and FTM people are generally not what the pornos would have us believe. Massive throbbing dicks don't really go with a totally female outward appearance.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh yes, I agree with you completely! If you're on female hormones, the chances that you are getting massive erections on a regular basis are pretty slim. But it's not the fantasy, and some performers play into that fantasy. I'm sure the reasons they do porn are similar to the reasons anybody else does - to feel beautiful, to make money, to rebel, etc. They just happen to have recognized a niche and found that they could be successful within that niche.

But yeah, the genitals of both MTF and FTM people are generally not what the pornos would have us believe. Massive throbbing dicks don't really go with a totally female outward appearance.

Well if it's all right with you, I prefer to make a leetle bit of distinction between "people who totally cannot be happy in their cis bodies" and "beautiful boys who buy silicone for fantasy and rebellion." One is, actually, a transexual, the other is a shemale. One is trying to fix themselves, the other is performing-- at a level of unprecedented sincerity, but it's still acting out.

I say this, of course, because the silicone I can buy doesn't cut it and it pisses me the hell off and makes me very bitchy. Because it's all about me.