Humiliation as a Punishment

[unknooown]

I don't know if this is obvious or what, but I'm still pretty new to this whole shtick. Not being dominant, because that's how I've been for several years (and that's dominant with a lowercase d because I don't consider myself a Dom), but there's never really been any rhyme or reason to my behavior.

Lately I'm trying to make my relationship a bit more structured because we don't have a safe-word -- so my goal is to give her a clear idea of what she's getting herself into when she says or does certain things.

Also, as much as I enjoy being violent (and I really do), there's a point where I have to put an end to it, for whatever reason. In the past, my aggression was a good outlet for my anger. She would piss me off, I would give it to her and then I'd fuck her and things would be fine. Lately, though, I find I'm still angry even after all that. As a result I've started to experiment a bit more with humiliation.

I have to be careful with it because our friends (with the exception of one) are pretty vanilla, and if they are into this stuff we don't know about it. So as far as humiliation goes, everything I've done has been pretty tame and it should probably stay that way. But I'm looking for new ways to humiliate her in public or semi-public places/situations.

So far I've had a friend (the kinky one) spank her (in private; not even I was there); I've given her a few hard slaps on the ass in a room full of friends; I've touched her and made her come in public places; and I've just talked down to her in general in front of our friends ("What did you just say to me?" and making her repeat herself, as well as "don't you ever speak to me like that -- do you understand?" etc etc).

As far as her reactions go I definitely favored her reaction to being spanked by our friend above all the others -- but I'm not very comfortable with other people touching her, especially men, and especially in that way.

Any ideas? She's been incredibly out of line all weekend.

 

[unknooown]

Also: getting her off is not a concern of mine. If she enjoys humiliation that's great, and if she doesn't I frankly couldn't care less. I plan on using it as a tool to alleviate my anger and nothing more.

 

[CutieMouse]

Let me see if I can sum this up...

You recognize you're having some issues with anger, and in the past have essentially used your girlfriend as a way to diffuse the issue [anger] by "giving it to her" (I presume physically?) then fucking, and lah-de-dah life is puppy dogs and roses again.

Except that lately you're finding yourself still pissed off even after the "giving it to her"/fucking, and I'm guessing this is *not* working for you?

And you've decided that the problem with all of this is a lack of structure, which isn't terribly unreasonable, if one assumes *she* is what is pissing you off.

Generally speaking, when one begins seeking out more structure, it is wise to begin with oneself, then focus on the relationship, up the communication skills, work *together* to reach an agreement re: expected behaviours/etc. then start diving into the punishment pool...

Personal opinion, ya got things a wee bit backasswards there, kid... then again I'm the sort who sees humiliation as a reward, not a punishment, so what do I know?

 

[catalina_francisco]

One is not necessarily Dominant just because they can dish out shit on their partner when they are angry. If anything, most who are into this lifestyle will tell you that acting in anger is not only unwise, but a sign you do not have control, particularly of yourself. As to public humiliation, once again, this lifestyle is about consent. If you begin playing out your scenes in public, you are involving people who may not want to be involved or witness to your relationship quirks if given the choice. These are all things you should discuss with your partner before beginning to act on them as if anything you do is seen as anti-social or illegal, she can also suffer the legal ramifications.

Catalina

 

[unknooown]

I realize that acting in anger is advised against, but it's something that I enjoy. When I'm angry enough that I actually fear for her (or my) safety (which rarely happens by the way), I give myself a time-out to cool down.

Also, if this makes any difference, I think it would be a stretch to say we're into the BDSM lifestyle. This is just where I'm able to find like-minded people. We're not into bondage or anything like that, although our relationship has sadomasochistic elements. But as far as that goes, it's an action-reaction type of thing. Pain/dominance/humiliation isn't a prereq for our sex life. Sometimes we'll go weeks without any hint of that. It all comes down to whether I'm in a shitty mood and how she speaks or behaves toward me.

Also, if it does turn violent, I rarely swing first. I try very hard to make sure this is what she wants before I put my hands on her, and she knows (because I've made this very clear) that if she hits me I'm going to hit her back. Sure, sometimes she's in a bad mood and I say something out of line and without thinking she'll smack me. That's not what I'm talking about. The line she has to cross to get me to react violently is a very clear one and she knows how not to cross it.

Also, as far as still being pissed off after "giving it to her" and fucking her, it's partially that this is no longer as satisfying for me but it's also that, lately, she's been...well, almost taunting me even after I've reduced her to apologies/tears/begging. And I've found that, when I've really had enough, the second she feels humiliated she stops in her tracks.

As for playing out scenes in public, we're both very careful about this. I personally do not believe in involving unwitting people (this means even as far as vanilla sex goes, it should be kept out of plain sight). When I touch her in public it's discreet, like at a restaurant I'll put my hands up her skirt but the tablecloth covers everything. She is not at all comfortable with the idea of being caught, and is even more skittish about this kind of play than I am. But also this is what puts her in place, which is why I'm looking for ways I can humiliate her without other people getting wise to the situation.

As for she and I working together to reach an agreement...that is not something I'm interested in. I know ultimately it will take us longer to get this figured out, but there's something thrilling about feeling things out as we go along. I'm happy with the way things work and so is she.

 

[catalina_francisco]

IIt all comes down to whether I'm in a shitty mood and how she speaks or behaves toward me.

Uh huh, as a trained therapist for domestic violence victims / survivors, this is typical abuser behaviour and pathology...nothing unusual when talking about abuse. In fact, the fact you speak of it only occuring every few weeks with weeks in between where the anger and violence does not occur describes the pattern involved in the cycle of violoence. If you Google cycle of violence, you will find a lot of material which will explain what soulnds like is happening in your lives. There is a lot of differences between abuse and BDSM and it is unfortunate some confuse the two as being one in the same.

Catalina

 

[unknooown]

For fuck's sake, I'm not abusive.

I cannot stress enough the fact that all of what I described is consensual. Yes, I'm probably rougher with her than most people here are with their girlfriends. But we've spoken about what goes on often enough that there is no confusion, ZERO, about this being something that makes us both happy. We both enjoy and get off on it.

We have also explicitly discussed the fact that, in this relationship, what I say goes. That, too, is consensual. And I'm not an asshole -- I don't push her around for the hell of it.

Like I said, there's a very clear line that she needs to cross before I put my hands on her. Sometimes she crosses it because she's angry and doesn't care, but usually she crosses it because she wants me to react in a certain way. That's fine by me -- as I explained, I enjoy being violent. I like hurting her, within reason, and I like her reaction to being hurt. But given that care very much about her, I only do these things when she puts the ball in motion. It's in her court.

 

[ownedsubgal]

no offense intended, but it seems like the real problem in your relationship is her continually "getting out of line," which tells me that there is a lack of structure in your relationship, not to mention respect. there is nothing wrong, imo, with using humiliation as a tool to alleviate your anger when it arises. but i would think the larger priority would be working to reduce her behaviors which trigger your anger/stress in the first place.

 

[unknooown]

That's a good idea. I would like to be the kind of person that is able to reduce these behaviors in her just by putting my foot down, but not only am I unsure as to whether she'll take that seriously (as she's been disobeying/talking back to me already), I'm also pretty curious as to what sparked this change in her.

She doesn't appear to be angry at me, and we communicate pretty well. Just because I'm in charge doesn't mean she's unable to tell me when I do something that makes her unhappy. I've been kind of getting on her case about her eating (and perhaps I've been too hard on her), because she's lost a bit of weight and is thin as it is, and I know that annoys her sometimes. But she can't possibly be acting out because she resents my caring about her, can she?

 

[00Syd]

Maybe she's pissing you off because she likes to get beat up, and that's the only time that you beat her up.

Or maybe any number of other things.

Maybe talk to her about it.

 

[Netzach]

Maybe she's pissing you off because she likes to get beat up, and that's the only time that you beat her up.

Or maybe any number of other things.

Maybe talk to her about it.

This is what I see. You've given her ONE way to get what she supposedly wants, and it's by acting negatively. And ONE way to get to give her what you apparently mutually enjoy - and it's by her acting negatively. Because you're NOT BDSM PEOPLE. You're cooler and more organic and real and raw. Right.

So why are you bitching about her acting negatively?

Of course she's going to "cross that line". If she has to hit you in order to get off, she's going to do it. I smell drama addiction more than abuse, and two people who are too scared to admit that their tastes might be "like those people" to cope.

You've basically created your own monster. People are telling you how to address it if you want but you are "not interested" in talking to her or working with her. You need to be able to blame *her* for the way you get your jollies, it seems.

 

[unknooown]

This is what I see. You've given her ONE way to get what she supposedly wants, and it's by acting negatively. And ONE way to get to give her what you apparently mutually enjoy - and it's by her acting negatively. Because you're NOT BDSM PEOPLE. You're cooler and more organic and real and raw. Right.

So why are you bitching about her acting negatively?

Of course she's going to "cross that line". If she has to hit you in order to get off, she's going to do it. I smell drama addiction more than abuse, and two people who are too scared to admit that their tastes might be "like those people" to cope.

This is an interesting take on it. If we thought we were above the BDSM lifestyle I wouldn't be here. We're more organic than most, yes. That doesn't mean I think using handcuffs and whips is stupid; I just prefer to use my hands or a belt.

No, I don't consider myself her master or daddy or what have you. Really, that's probably a result of us lacking creativity more than anything else. She's my girlfriend, and I've never thought of her as anything other than that. And (as mushy as this is) I've wanted her to be my girlfriend for so long that I don't want to call her anything else. I'm still relishing in it.

No, I'm not unhappy about the fact that she's giving me more opportunity than ever to beat her up. I'm a little uneasy about it because her attitude changed so suddenly. Literally 6 weeks ago she would do what I said with little question. Now she's not only not doing what I ask, but even after I beat her up, or fuck her, or both, she's still getting out of line. And this weekend I have friends visiting, and the ONE THING that really truly pisses me off is being disrespected in front of these friends in particular. I may not have explained this to her explicitly but even so, when I say eat what's on your fucking plate, I don't give a shit if she feels like she's being treated like a child -- she should fucking eat what's on her fucking plate. Just like if I tell her to get me a beer she should get me a beer. Or if I say get undressed, she should get undressed.

So naturally I'm now wondering if I've crossed some line, some secret insane girl body image line that guys don't know about, and this is how I'm paying the price. Because I don't want to keep beating the shit out of her if a) she's going to continue acting like a child (because if she wants me to beat the shit out of her she's more than welcome to just say so) or b) if I'm really hurting her in some way (emotionally or physically).

And now that I'm thinking about it, her shitty attitude began just around the time I noticed she was losing weight and started getting on her ass about it. And OF COURSE I can't even ask her about this now, because I told her to get out of my sight and she said FINE I'LL GO TO THE GYM and that was two and a half hours ago.

 

[unknooown]

E N D R A N T

 

[00Syd]

Ahem.

If her actions are so inexplicable, and you don't know what she wants, or what the problem is, and you don't know how she wants you to act, etc, etc, etc, then, you know, maybe ASK.

Put on your big kid hat, sit down, and just fucking talk to her about it, because, honestly, we aren't going to have any more insight into her mind than you do. The only person that can answer your questions about your girlfriends actions and feelings is your girlfriend.

Relationships require communication. Clear, explicit communication. And this is a relationship, right? So stop bitching to us, and go fucking talk to her.

 

[00Syd]

I mean, basically this whole thread can be condenced to: "we have this thing, and it was working, but now it's not working, wtf?"

At least that's the way I'm reading it.

And that's just not a question that we can really answer for you.

 

[unknooown]

Yeah, but in the meantime can we talk some more about humiliation and how to use it as an effective punishment and/or anger outlet.

 

[00Syd]

Yeah, but in the meantime can we talk some more about humiliation and how to use it as an effective punishment and/or anger outlet.

Well, I don't think that's going to solve your problem.

It sounds to me like the last thing you need is to learn another way to punish her, or to find another anger outlet. It seems to me that, first, before you can learn anything else, you need to learn how to have difficult conversations.

 

[unknooown]

God help me you're making me crazy

I will talk to her but I won't like it and I refuse to acknowledge how logical your advice is

 

[Netzach]

Well, I don't think that's going to solve your problem.

It sounds to me like the last thing you need is to learn another way to punish her, or to find another anger outlet. It seems to me that, first, before you can learn anything else, you need to learn how to have difficult conversations.

If I were dating someone who was exhibiting eating disorder behavior, by God, I'd try and smack it out of her and embarrass it out of her. That would work well.

And of course all problems that I personally don't understand are just insane girl problems.

 

[BiBunny]

If I were dating someone who was exhibiting eating disorder behavior, by God, I'd try and smack it out of her and embarrass it out of her. That would work well.

 

[Netzach]

This is what happens when people watch Secretary and they think that scene with him throwing away her cutting kit has some bearing on real life.

 

[your_vice]

Some people have humiliation buttons that shouldn't be pressed. General stuff like calling her a useless, dumb bitch she can probably handle. Being told she's lost too much weight and is therefore less attractive to you she maybe can't. Body image is a deeply personal, sensitive thing for many women and regardless of how well your style of dominance works in other areas, it may not be the best approach for this particular issue. Most people who enjoy humiliation play can only do that with someone they feel very secure with. If she knows you love her deeply and mean her no real or permanent harm despite how you treat her in a consensual way, humiliating taunts will just bounce off because she knows you don't really believe her to be a useless, dumb bitch. By drawing attention to her weight and making it clear you prefer her to be heavier, you're making her feel insecure. If you're less attracted to her you're more likely to end things or cheat behind her back. She knows that when you say you want her to gain weight, you're perfectly serious, not roleplaying as a dominant who likes to humiliate her but really cherishes her above all other women.

It sounds to me like she's beginning to resent your authority. Submissive women want to serve and please. Netzach has a point about the way you've given her only one sure course of action if she wants you to be violent but I think there's more going on here. The weight issue may well have brought home to her just how much control she's ceded to you and that may well be freaking her out. She's probably having a crisis of faith in whether you're the right person to rule her life with an iron fist. People have doubts in any relationship but as the submissive party in a BDSM one, these doubts can become real, pervasive fears. You might like to keep things unstructured and organic but it means the boundaries are less clear for your gf and she's correspondingly less certain of where she stands with you and what aspects of her life fall under your authority.

I think what she needs is reassurance that you do still find her attractive and you do have her best interests and happiness at heart. It might sound a bit obvious but taking the time to remind her how great you think she is could go a long way for you here. Some guys can get too into their dominance and the gentler, more romantic side of things can suffer. I think you should also think about a more in depth discussion about how you can make your dynamic work in the longer term because resentments like this can fester and cause real trouble if you don't pay careful attention to how happy she is with you calling the shots.

 

[unknooown]

If I were dating someone who was exhibiting eating disorder behavior, by God, I'd try and smack it out of her and embarrass it out of her. That would work well.

And of course all problems that I personally don't understand are just insane girl problems.

You're starting to bother me.

I've never seen Secretary. She's not exhibiting eating disorder traits, she's lost some weight. Let's not jump to conclusions here. It doesn't even appear that she's trying to lose any weight, she just is.

I've never hit her because she wasn't eating. I don't want to humiliate her because she's not eating. She is eating, she's just also losing weight. And I'm angry because when I show concern about it she feels like she's being treated like a child and acts out (like a child).

And yes, all problems I don't understand are insane girl problems. Like why you feel the need to act like a miserable bitch.

 

[unknooown]

Your_vice, that's incredibly helpful, thank you. It's not that I find her less attractive (really it's not even a lot of weight she's lost, just enough for me to notice) it's that I'm worried that it's indicative of something more serious -- whether physical or psychological. And I would never criticize the way she looks -- I mean even now the worst thing I'll call her is a child, and that's when she's acting like one. I guess I don't know how to ask her about why she's losing weight because we don't talk very often about serious things. It's definitely time, though. If she's not happy I want to know about it, and if she is but something else is wrong I want to know about it.

I'd be absolutely willing to step back, if she wants just rough sex without the control that's fine, not ideal but I want to be with her.

 

[00Syd]

and I refuse to acknowledge how logical your advice is

Well, that's your problem right there.