One Take on the Gay Parenting Issue

[TE999]

Short version: It matters not who loves and cares for you, it's that you are loved and cared for.

 

[sadangel]

Short version: It matters not who loves and cares for you, it's that you are loved and cared for.

Quoted for truth.


*sigh* I was raised in a heterosexual family. An abusive one. I would have done better being raised by a single parent or a same-sex couple. That I am sure of. I would have even been better off in a foster home, but I never got the option even when it was there, because I was never told about the option.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Short version: It matters not who loves and cares for you, it's that you are loved and cared for.

What a load of happy horseshit. The streets of Hell are paved with love and caring sentiments.

 

[3113]

Short version: It matters not who loves and cares for you, it's that you are loved and cared for.

Be succinct. See if I care!

 

[3113]

There are things I would talk to my Dad about and not to my Mom.

Just to add: I always wonder when men say this sort of thing in arguing against lesbian couples (though, interestingly, not gay males as parents. Would it be fine with you if gay men were the parents because you feel they can handle both boys and girls? Is it just lesbians that bug you because you feel knocked out of the picture?).

WHAT things did you talk to your dad about that you couldn't talk to your mom about? Can you be more specific? And why couldn't you talk to your mom about it? Because she was a woman or because she was the mom she was, not some other type of mom?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I never talked to my parents about anything out the usual run-of-the-mill stuff. In fact, I don't think I've ever talked to anybody except a therapist back in college about anything but run-of-the mill stuff. Never felt the need to.

 

[amicus]

Key word search: the myth of single parent, same sex child raising

http://www.ctfamily.org/editorial10.html

These questions all make sense, but fail to take into account the central issue here — the long-term effects of being raised in a home without both a mother and a father. Study after study shows that children do better in homes with both a mother and father present. Children of divorce or single-parents have had the most research done proving this point. Yet same-sex households create a case that is much worse than a simple divorce or separation. Whereas a single parent may marry or a divorcee may remarry and create a family in which a new father-figure or mother figure partially fills the need for stable female and male role models, same-sex households make fatherlessness or motherlessness permanent and obligatory. The obvious needs reiterating here: children raised in same-sex households will never have both a mother and a father.

As for Primetime's "expert" witness, Judith Stacey, her work on homosexual children has very little scholarly legitimacy and some of the most important social scientists in the field have completely disowned it. (For more information on same-sex parenting click here.) The truth is there seems to be a number of problems with children raised in homosexual households — including gender-confusion, mental and psychological health, and yes, experimentation with homosexuality. And the evidence we do have bears this out.

Granted, we do not have good longitudinal data on children raised in such households; this is simply because it is such a new phenomenon. We are in a situation strikingly similar to that of the no-fault divorce debates of the early 1970s. At the time, there was very little long-term data on the effects of divorce on children. Advocates of free and easy divorce jumped on any study — all of them inspired more by ideology than by sound social science — to prove their point. They won the battle, and we are now suffering from the legacy of no-fault divorce.

Thirty years later the "experts” of the 1970s have been PROVEN wrong. We know for instance, that children of divorce, in general, suffer from more social pathologies than children from traditional families. This knowledge is of little help to the generation of children that were robbed of fathers and mothers due to the myth of divorce without consequences.

~~~

Trample upon JBJ at your own peril as the man is knowledgeable and experienced and educated and social behavior is his field of expertise. You can almost deduce that from the entirety of those who favor single and same sex parenting.

Without much of a stretch of cognition, one can simply view nature and nature's evolution of two sexes as the ideal method of procreation and the nurturing of offspring.

Standing in opposition to a half century trend towards 'equality' between the sexes, reality insists upon defining masculinity and femininity in rathe distinct terms and with good reason.

This subject has been dwelt upon before and the conclusions are available to any who take the time to objectively search for clinical studies on the results of single parent and same sex child raising. Children from single parent and same sex parents have a lower IQ, experience gender uncertainty, perform poorly in school, are more liable to act out in public, show an affinity for drug addiction and alcoholism and the suicide rate is above the societal norm.

The facts are all out there if you dig for them and digging is required as the majority of available research is performed and promoted by those single parents who insist they have done a good job of parenting and those same sex advocates in academia.

In short, it is fact, not opinion, that has rung the death knell concerning fringe and extreme behavior in society.

Amicus

 

[TE999]

What a load of happy horseshit. The streets of Hell are paved with love and caring sentiments.

And the road to it is paved with good intentions.

 

[Handley_Page]

Without much of a stretch of cognition, one can simply view nature and nature's evolution of two sexes as the ideal method of procreation and the nurturing of offspring.

Standing in opposition to a half century trend towards 'equality' between the sexes, reality insists upon defining masculinity and femininity in rather distinct terms and with good reason.

This subject has been dwelt upon before and the conclusions are available to any who take the time to objectively search for clinical studies on the results of single parent and same sex child raising. Children from single parent and same sex parents have a lower IQ, experience gender uncertainty, perform poorly in school, are more liable to act out in public, show an affinity for drug addiction and alcoholism and the suicide rate is above the societal norm.

The facts are all out there if you dig for them and digging is required as the majority of available research is performed and promoted by those single parents who insist they have done a good job of parenting and those same sex advocates in academia.

In short, it is fact, not opinion, that has rung the death knell concerning fringe and extreme behaviour in society.

Amicus

One has to ask WHY there is so much rattle about it. Something must have started the whole deal off. Could it be excess Progesterone or Oestrogen in the water supply? Could it be the effects of the Nuclear age?

Or did the 1930s have it's own peccadilloes about which none spoke out loud.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Mother Nature's been perfecting it for a few million years; and after that long a spell improvements are few and very far between, except in the minds of pixie & fairy perfessers who think they can ordain it in falsetto trills and warbles.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

I mean, what in fuck do you know about pissing in a urinal?

Yes, of course a boy will never learn how to piss in a urinal if he doesn't have a dad

 

[amicus]

One has to ask WHY there is so much rattle about it. Something must have started the whole deal off. Could it be excess Progesterone or Oestrogen in the water supply? Could it be the effects of the Nuclear age?

Or did the 1930s have it's own peccadilloes about which none spoke out loud.[/QUOTE]

~~~

Hello, Handley_Page, I was just thinking of you as my computer informed me I have an 'unauthorized version' of a word processessing program...go figure, must be the new year or sumpin.

I offer my opinion or conclusion for your consideration: We are a hundred years (give or take) into the emancipation of women, and fifty years, again, give or take, into the 'sexual revolution' that began in the 1950's, again, give or take a few years.

Never before in human history have women had such an impact on the political aspects of society and it should come as no surprise that women deal with women's issues and vote for gender specific legislation at all levels of government.

Literature, in your country, during the Victorian era, began to deal with women's issues concerning inheritance and paternity and 'a woman's place in society.'

The 'independent woman', is a relatively new phenomenon in human history and traditional, conventional society is finding this and the consequences of it, very difficult to deal with.

Never in all of human history have women been as well educated as they are at the current time, with more women engaged in higher education than men. A study just released indicates that women are now higher wage earners than men and effectively have become the 'breadwinner' in a majority of families.

Another factor to consider, is that the Industrial Revolution, modern society, has seen a continually declining birth rate among caucasian women that has, in many countries, fallen below the replacement value of two children per women, to something around 1.5%.

Euro Nations, the US & Canada and even Japan, have had to permit immigrants into their country to bolster the population.

I propose that all of the above are causal effects but that the psychological or sociological dilemma created is gender uncertainty as masculine traits have been demeaned and the more gentle feminine traits exemplified throughout all aspects of society from child raising to public education to the working place and beyond.

... an thas jes a bare bones assessment...

ami

 

[3113]

Yes, of course a boy will never learn how to piss in a urinal if he doesn't have a dad

It is a male art form. Poor boy raised by lesbian moms will just stand there staring at the urinal, not knowing exactly how to hold his dick in order to get the shot in just right...

Yes. That is a tradition that ought to be passed on from father to son...like carving a turkey and grilling burgers....

 

[PolyLvr]

Just to add: I always wonder when men say this sort of thing in arguing against lesbian couples (though, interestingly, not gay males as parents. Would it be fine with you if gay men were the parents because you feel they can handle both boys and girls? Is it just lesbians that bug you because you feel knocked out of the picture?).

WHAT things did you talk to your dad about that you couldn't talk to your mom about? Can you be more specific? And why couldn't you talk to your mom about it? Because she was a woman or because she was the mom she was, not some other type of mom?

Please go back and reread my post. I clarified it.
In the first part of my post I referenced gay and lesbian couples. When I referenced the actual study i said lesbian, because that is what the study was about.
My point: An ideal couple is an invested and loving man and woman. Many hetero couples are not ideal for many reasons, but they still have loving families with normal kids who grow up into normal adults. And many perfect hetero couples have kids that turn into molesters, addicts and thieves.
I'd imagine gay or lesbian parents would have similar successes and failures. As parents, you do what you can and hope your kids make it.
Gay or lesbian parents have the added burden of their own social struggles, and the difficulty in holding a relationships together in that climate.
I know 2 gay men and a lesbian. I don't know why, but none of them can hold a relationship together for more than 6 months. One of the gay men has given up on ever having a partner, and the lesbian I know is an emotional basket case who bounces back and forth between 3 other girls, plus random hookups.
I realize they are not representative, but I have nothing else to base my opinions on.
I would surmise that an ideal lesbian couple would be slightly preferable to an ideal gay couple because women tend to be more empathetic than men.

Believe it or not, I could talk to my mom about far more than my friends could to theirs. But there are some things a father has an advantage in, in perspective and experience .

Sorry for rambling.

 

[3113]

I know 2 gay men and a lesbian. One of the gay men has given up on ever having a partner, and the lesbian I know is an emotional basket case who bounces back and forth between 3 other girls, plus random hookups. I don't know why, but none of them can hold a relationship together for more than 6 months.

I won't go into all the gays and lesbians I know that counter these, including many on this forum. Here's the thing: you say you *know* these people are not represenative samples, but in bringing them up you tell me that you don't know that at all. That you see them as representatives emotionally no matter how you realize otherwise intellectually.

Thing is, what you have to learn, emotionally as well as intellectually, is that NO gay person is representative of all gays. Any more than you are of all heterosexual men. They, like you, are people. And people are people. Some can stick it out and be committed to partner, children and all the rest. Other bounce and have random hookups. Some have those hookups even after they've a ring on their finger and kids at home. Why after all, does it bother you that this lesbian has all these hookups (so you don't trust her with kids?), yet if she was a married man you'd probably not be so worried--you'd still say, "Sure, he and his wife can have a son..."

You say you have nothing else to base your opinions on? Stick around here. But really, you should base all opinions on human nature on humans in general. This is rather like saying that you know three black people who are divorced so, based on that, your opinion is that black people can't stay married.

But there are some things a father has an advantage in, in perspective and experience.

Like? You still haven't offered a single example. What, exactly, are we talking about? Outside of pissing in a urinal.

 

[Vermilion]

Like? You still haven't offered a single example. What, exactly, are we talking about? Outside of pissing in a urinal.

Personally I can't think of anything that a man would have a better perspective on, merely that you are more likely to take what a man says about being a man on trust, if you can follow that convoluted sentence.

For example - a mother telling her son about what makes a good man may make some very good points, but since she is not a man her son may not listen or believe it as much as if a man told him the same things. It's the perspective the advice is coming from that matters.

Other than that it's simply a matter of knowledge... though I can't imagine ever talking to my dad about 'girl' things - physical or emotional. He's a little clueless and easily embarrassed. Hubby, however, would be fantastic dealing with that stuff - it's all about the person.

I need coffee.
x
V

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

How effing silly.

When my son joined the military we talked about it. When he went to the Guld War we talked about it. When he got married we talked about it. When he kicked a kid's ass on the school bus we talked about that. And when he pissed on the principal's car we talked about that, too.

Women have their interests and experiences, and theyre irrelevant in the average guy's life. Guy's are naturally chauvinistic, and what girlz do is 2nd rate....unless youre a Usual Suspect Drone on this board with lace on your drawers.

 

[3113]

For example - a mother telling her son about what makes a good man may make some very good points, but since she is not a man her son may not listen or believe it as much as if a man told him the same things. It's the perspective the advice is coming from that matters.

Granted. And we'll agree that a man or woman might want to go to a male/female doctor depending on some delicate problem they don't feel they could discuss with a doctor of the opposite sex, etc. But this is different from saying that there must be a dad/mom as compared to male/female figure in the kid's life. If Poly's dad had, say, died when he was a baby and he'd been raised only by mom with help from a grandfather or uncle, would he have talked about these things with grandfather/uncle? Would that have sufficed? Did there need to be a father and only a father or, realistically, could he have satisfied his need to get a male perspective and experience from any trusted male friend or relative?

And there is another problem with this scenario. Poly wasn't raised by lesbians. All I'm seeing here are men saying, "Looking back on my childhood, I'd have been unhappy without a dad to talk to--" But none of these guys were raised by two moms. Maybe if they had been, they'd now be shrugging their shoulders and saying, "There wasn't any problem."

Why should I trust the word of people who don't know what it's like to be raised by lesbians? They're coming to this with preconceived notions and prejudices that they can't shrug off, not objective observations, facts OR personal experience of having two moms (or dads). Which means they're locked into thinking that dad was for this and mom was for that--NOT that mom #1 was for this and mom #2 was for that--and uncle Bill was for teaching them how to piss in a urinal. "I can't imagine it working because that wasn't how I was raised" isn't good enough, because maybe a boy with two moms finds other ways to gain the same perspectives and experiences.

I want to know, specifically, what has to be learned from a father and only a father that makes two moms a failure in parenting no matter how amazing they are or how many other loving, caring and committed male figures there are in the boy's life.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Who's gonna tell a lad about farting ettiquette? Or when to pull the blanket over a woman's head? Women simply dont know all the male mysteries.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Why can't a woman teach her son to use a urinal? You say; "Point it, kid, you're doing great!"

Judging by the stench I notice outside most public men's rooms-- their fathers aren't really doing such a great job anyway.

 

[lance gt]

Why can't a woman teach her son to use a urinal? You say; "Point it, kid, you're doing great!"

Judging by the stench I notice outside most public men's rooms-- their fathers aren't really doing such a great job anyway.

Either that or society is just saying go ahead, do what you want and show no respect for anything. Piss away, it's not my problem, someone else can clean it up.

BTW, good to see you Darlin'

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

A boy needs a dad to let him know that size isnt important.

 

[PolyLvr]

Granted. And we'll agree that a man or woman might want to go to a male/female doctor depending on some delicate problem they don't feel they could discuss with a doctor of the opposite sex, etc. But this is different from saying that there must be a dad/mom as compared to male/female figure in the kid's life. If Poly's dad had, say, died when he was a baby and he'd been raised only by mom with help from a grandfather or uncle, would he have talked about these things with grandfather/uncle? Would that have sufficed? Did there need to be a father and only a father or, realistically, could he have satisfied his need to get a male perspective and experience from any trusted male friend or relative?

And there is another problem with this scenario. Poly wasn't raised by lesbians. All I'm seeing here are men saying, "Looking back on my childhood, I'd have been unhappy without a dad to talk to--" But none of these guys were raised by two moms. Maybe if they had been, they'd now be shrugging their shoulders and saying, "There wasn't any problem."

Why should I trust the word of people who don't know what it's like to be raised by lesbians? They're coming to this with preconceived notions and prejudices that they can't shrug off, not objective observations, facts OR personal experience of having two moms (or dads). Which means they're locked into thinking that dad was for this and mom was for that--NOT that mom #1 was for this and mom #2 was for that--and uncle Bill was for teaching them how to piss in a urinal. "I can't imagine it working because that wasn't how I was raised" isn't good enough, because maybe a boy with two moms finds other ways to gain the same perspectives and experiences.

I want to know, specifically, what has to be learned from a father and only a father that makes two moms a failure in parenting no matter how amazing they are or how many other loving, caring and committed male figures there are in the boy's life.

I don't think you're getting the point of my posts.
As JBJ said, having a father and mother would be optimal.
That's not to say that gays or lesbians couldn't make excellent parents. I'm sure many do.

I'll respond to your earlier post from last night, after my workout.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Steak is preferable to hot dogs, but hot dogs will do, and occasionally I like a big fat weiner...never mind.

I cant recall one lesbian I rejected for the foster parent program, and I never met one who didnt do it for the extra money..but they take good care of the kids. On the the other-hand I've never approved gays to be foster parents...no effing way. They dont do it for the money, they do it to fill those long, lonely nights with a tingle and a jingle.

 

[PolyLvr]

I won't go into all the gays and lesbians I know that counter these, including many on this forum. Here's the thing: you say you *know* these people are not represenative samples, but in bringing them up you tell me that you don't know that at all. That you see them as representatives emotionally no matter how you realize otherwise intellectually.
If I saw them as representative, I couldn't accept that gays and lesbians could be decent parents.
Thing is, what you have to learn, emotionally as well as intellectually, is that NO gay person is representative of all gays. Any more than you are of all heterosexual men. They, like you, are people. And people are people. Some can stick it out and be committed to partner, children and all the rest. Other bounce and have random hookups. Some have those hookups even after they've a ring on their finger and kids at home. Why after all, does it bother you that this lesbian has all these hookups (so you don't trust her with kids?), yet if she was a married man you'd probably not be so worried--you'd still say, "Sure, he and his wife can have a son..."
It doesn't bother me that she is having all those hookups, just for the sake of having them. The part that I dislike, (and it's not really business but....)is that her behaviour is so flamboyant and dramatic. I would have the same opinion of a gay man or a married man or woman doing the same thing.

You say you have nothing else to base your opinions on? Stick around here. But really, you should base all opinions on human nature on humans in general. This is rather like saying that you know three black people who are divorced so, based on that, your opinion is that black people can't stay married.
Valid point. And I try to always be open to learning.

Like? You still haven't offered a single example. What, exactly, are we talking about? Outside of pissing in a urinal.

Fighting. Let's start with that one. My Dad said to never fight. i got my ass kicked until my Mom convinced me it was OK to fight. So that didn't help.
Hmm, he taught me to fish. I'm told he taught me how to properly keep my genitals clean, but that was earlier than I can remember.
He taught me when girls say no, they don't always mean no. But I better make damn sure what they mean before proceeding.
He slapped the shit out of me when I was seventeen and thought I could disrespect my mother.
He taught me that it's OK as a man to cry sometimes.
He taught me how to plane a door, solder copper pipe, frame a room.
He taught me how to do a budget.
He taught me the value of hard work without complaining, while paying my dues.
He taught me how to be a husband and father. By example.
There are a few other things he taught me, but they aren't relevant to this discussion.