Post-feminism and BDSM

[ataxia.girl]

No, no, of course not.

And i still have to pay 20% of the ridiculously lower billed price. i kinda want to tell Blue Cross to just take my 20% out of the 70% break they get for being Blue Cross.

 

[ultramarineblue]

And i still have to pay 20% of the ridiculously lower billed price. i kinda want to tell Blue Cross to just take my 20% out of the 70% break they get for being Blue Cross.

I'm with you on that. It really does not make sense to me that those who can't afford health insurance have to pay more than those who are able to have the insurance.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I'm with you on that. It really does not make sense to me that those who can't afford health insurance have to pay more than those who are able to have the insurance.

one is cash directly in the pocket, the other is weeks and months of back and forth paperwork with bit-by-bit payouts.

 

[ataxia.girl]

one is cash directly in the pocket, the other is weeks and months of back and forth paperwork with bit-by-bit payouts.

Agreed but paying only 30% of the regularly billed amount seems to be an excessive disparity but as usual those who can least afford it are charged more. i don't say they pay more because they often cannot afford to pay at all which just feeds into the cycle so the next uninsured person is charged even more to make up for the previous loss.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Agreed but paying only 30% of the regularly billed amount seems to be an excessive disparity but as usual those who can least afford it are charged more. i don't say they pay more because they often cannot afford to pay at all which just feeds into the cycle so the next uninsured person is charged even more to make up for the previous loss.

it sucks without question, but more pay than you may realize. i was uninsured for several years, and because of Daddy's income no where close to qualifying for any kind of gov't assistance-type health care. i still went to the doctor, and paid, paid it all. thousands and thousands of cash directly into happy greedy doctor's pockets...it made me physically ill, especially knowing exactly how tremendous the difference was between what i had to pay then and what my insurance company had been paying when i was insured. but you do what you have to do.

 

[Netzach]

one is cash directly in the pocket, the other is weeks and months of back and forth paperwork with bit-by-bit payouts.

Get used to fucked credit or overpaying. I've got BCBS, but had nothing. I've paid up front, paid in installments, paid every way known to man. I prefer to go out of network for some services at this time simply because the claims fuck with my credit so badly, by the time they've figured out that they actually have to pay it's in collections. I can't wait for mandatory health care co-ops. The "reform" is a joke.

 

[BiBunny]

Yes. Get used to fucked credit or overpaying.

Or both.

 

[Netzach]

Or both.

Well, yeah, that's without coverage. With crap coverage you get to pick. Isn't that swell? There are days I think I got better care in some ways when I was uninsured, and I say this less in the way of complaint and more in the way of "wow, the shit you learn."

 

[BiBunny]

Well, yeah, that's without coverage. With crap coverage you get to pick. Isn't that swell?

Absolutely.

Wanna start a PSO insurance company?

 

[Netzach]

Absolutely.

Wanna start a PSO insurance company?

I think if there actually is portability and you actually can do pools, this is a great idea. Maybe some of that stuff will at least happen. The problem is when the bastards got out of any kind of capping. You don't get the auto insurers winning over hearts and minds in the name of anti-socialism.

 

[BiBunny]

I think if there actually is portability and you actually can do pools, this is a great idea. Maybe some of that stuff will at least happen. The problem is when the bastards got out of any kind of capping. You don't get the auto insurers winning over hearts and minds in the name of anti-socialism.

I know that's right.

 

[eastern sun]

Absolutely.

Wanna start a PSO insurance company?

Do you know anything about Sex Trade Workers Industrial Union 690, a branch of the I.W.W.? They claim to cover phone sex operators, as well as models, strippers, and actors. If they're for real, they may have developed a group plan you could buy into.

 

[lennythelion]

i think its awesome that women of the past did what it took to gain what they did for women. i take full advantage of it and i bat my lashes and show my cleavage freely if i believe it will be to my advantage. They did a lot of work for which i am now reaping the benefit. i simply no longer feel it is in a woman's best interest to continue to march on pretending we're all the the same. i think that was necessary for a time in order to gain even theoretical legal equality but i also think that stance has outlived its usefulness.

At this point the most feminist thing a woman can do is wrestle the definition of femininity from the last vestiges of the patriarchy and make it her own. Its time to start figuring out what it really is to be feminine again and put the mystery and uncertainty back into it. Controlling those mythical, chaotic, and capricious forces is part of feminine power, power men have sought to control and basically succeeded in controlling during most of human history.

I like the way you think ataxia.girl (and others). It's amusingly ethnocentric, though. I lived for a very long time in France. I don't deny that it is a sexist society, but something I figured out pretty quickly was that in that country (and other 'Latin' societies) 'men are men, and women are women'. This is in contrast to (what they term) 'anglo-saxon cultures' where 'women are trying to be men, and men think they can understand women'.

After catching up on the many other contributions to the whole "future of feminism" debate, I'd also like to add that power is not just something one has, it is also something one wields.

This fits with ataxia.girl's statement above, and it is something a lot of women in France/Spain/Italy do on a daily basis. I have sat on the corner of a male colleague's desk, with my legs crossed and my cleavage hinted at, and batted my eyelashes and asked him if he would do whatever for me. It wasn't sexual harassment (no favours were promised), it isn't something he wouldn't ever have done, it simply moved my request up his list of priorities and stroked his ego (I said 'ego').

Similarly, I have used my 'feminine wiles' in other situations, deferring to older colleagues (both men and women), stroking their egos too, more by playing the little girl than by seeking to seduce them in any overtly sexual way. I'm from an anglo-saxon culture and would never dare to do those things in the workplace in an anglo-saxon country, but over there, they work just fine.

The question is, did I ever feel de-valued/under-valued or considered less than because of this dynamic? No. I had a function, expertise related to that function, which I felt was respected (and I worked in an essentially all-male environment). Had I not been able to do my job unless I resorted to using my femininity, then I'd have not felt comfortable. However, that wasn't the case. Let's say that those feminine wiles oiled the wheels, allowing me to get things done more easily, sometimes more quickly. In retrospect, I realise that one of the ways I kept the balance was to systematically say no to anyone I thought was treating me with a lack of respect because I was 'a girl', and to lay down the law with any man who underestimated me because he bore contempt for women.

 

[where]

I like the way you think ataxia.girl (and others). It's amusingly ethnocentric, though. I lived for a very long time in France. I don't deny that it is a sexist society, but something I figured out pretty quickly was that in that country (and other 'Latin' societies) 'men are men, and women are women'. This is in contrast to (what they term) 'anglo-saxon cultures' where 'women are trying to be men, and men think they can understand women'.

After catching up on the many other contributions to the whole "future of feminism" debate, I'd also like to add that power is not just something one has, it is also something one wields.

This fits with ataxia.girl's statement above, and it is something a lot of women in France/Spain/Italy do on a daily basis. I have sat on the corner of a male colleague's desk, with my legs crossed and my cleavage hinted at, and batted my eyelashes and asked him if he would do whatever for me. It wasn't sexual harassment (no favours were promised), it isn't something he wouldn't ever have done, it simply moved my request up his list of priorities and stroked his ego (I said 'ego').

Similarly, I have used my 'feminine wiles' in other situations, deferring to older colleagues (both men and women), stroking their egos too, more by playing the little girl than by seeking to seduce them in any overtly sexual way. I'm from an anglo-saxon culture and would never dare to do those things in the workplace in an anglo-saxon country, but over there, they work just fine.

The question is, did I ever feel de-valued/under-valued or considered less than because of this dynamic? No. I had a function, expertise related to that function, which I felt was respected (and I worked in an essentially all-male environment). Had I not been able to do my job unless I resorted to using my femininity, then I'd have not felt comfortable. However, that wasn't the case. Let's say that those feminine wiles oiled the wheels, allowing me to get things done more easily, sometimes more quickly. In retrospect, I realise that one of the ways I kept the balance was to systematically say no to anyone I thought was treating me with a lack of respect because I was 'a girl', and to lay down the law with any man who underestimated me because he bore contempt for women.

oh trust me, the behaviours you describe are very prevalent in UK work places and if the woman doing them is actually capable and able then there is no problem with it at all, until said woman is no longer so physically desireable and she then gets replaced with an equally qualified and able younger model. The years of experience actually count for very little in the end, especially when you hit your late 40s and early 50s.

So enjoy using your feminine wiles whilst you can

 

[JMohegan]

After catching up on the many other contributions to the whole "future of feminism" debate, I'd also like to add that power is not just something one has, it is also something one wields.

This fits with ataxia.girl's statement above, and it is something a lot of women in France/Spain/Italy do on a daily basis. I have sat on the corner of a male colleague's desk, with my legs crossed and my cleavage hinted at, and batted my eyelashes and asked him if he would do whatever for me. It wasn't sexual harassment (no favours were promised), it isn't something he wouldn't ever have done, it simply moved my request up his list of priorities and stroked his ego (I said 'ego').

Similarly, I have used my 'feminine wiles' in other situations, deferring to older colleagues (both men and women), stroking their egos too, more by playing the little girl than by seeking to seduce them in any overtly sexual way. I'm from an anglo-saxon culture and would never dare to do those things in the workplace in an anglo-saxon country, but over there, they work just fine.

The question is, did I ever feel de-valued/under-valued or considered less than because of this dynamic? No. I had a function, expertise related to that function, which I felt was respected (and I worked in an essentially all-male environment). Had I not been able to do my job unless I resorted to using my femininity, then I'd have not felt comfortable. However, that wasn't the case. Let's say that those feminine wiles oiled the wheels, allowing me to get things done more easily, sometimes more quickly. In retrospect, I realise that one of the ways I kept the balance was to systematically say no to anyone I thought was treating me with a lack of respect because I was 'a girl', and to lay down the law with any man who underestimated me because he bore contempt for women.

I don't see that as the relevant question. I've always had a much more pragmatic view of the women's movement.

I think it's smart for a woman to consider if use of "feminine wiles" effectively puts a ceiling on the positions or roles for which she would be considered well-suited. Neither seductress nor the "little girl" persona screams leadership potential to me. Therefore, short term gains might come at the expense of long term achievement. The answer to this question will vary by individual situation, though.

Most importantly, the relevant question I see is: Are you capable of taking care of yourself in the long run?

Use your brains, your boobs, your talent and skills, your capacity for manipulation, whatever works for you and aligns well with your career goals. But don't neglect that savings account. Because, as Kybele notes, the capacity to wield power through tit shaking or little girl manipulation is a depreciating asset.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I think it's smart for a woman to consider if use of "feminine wiles" effectively puts a ceiling on the positions or roles for which she would be considered well-suited. Neither seductress nor the "little girl" persona screams leadership potential to me. Therefore, short term gains might come at the expense of long term achievement. The answer to this question will vary by individual situation, though.

i really don't think being feminine creates the ceiling. The ceiling has always been there and it is there because of the club not because men don't think women are capable. i think it really depends on the industry as well. in mine there are very few women at the top and there is definitely a boys club you are not going to get into no matter how masculine you act or dress or how cutthroat you are. If you have boobs and are attractive you are not going to get in because they don't give those jobs to people they want to fuck. If you are unattractive and female you still aren't going to get in because you aren't the one they drink with, smoke with, play golf with and most importantly go to strip clubs with. A lot of deals still get made in venues where women really aren't welcome\invited and these things are by invitation only. You don't invite yourself to play golf with the boss, he invites you and its just not going to occur to him to invite a woman.

There are still a lot of companies that only have 1 or maybe 2 women executives or members of the board and they are often there just so the company appears diverse.

There are industries where this is changing. Medicine is a big one. Women are also breaking into engineering and science research. In those fields i don't think there really is much of a ceiling and i'm sure there are many others. On wall street, in finance, insurance, banking and those types of industries i think there still very much is which means women are under represented in many of the positions where the most money is to be made.

Its not going to last. The next generation of men just don't feel the same way about the opposite sex i think. They like hanging out with women after work and doing things with them socially. i think the younger generation of males is more likely to have female friends and to make alliances with females in the rat race. In corporate culture you build relationships and alliances and try to take those people with you as you move up because they are people you trust and believe you can count on.

There is also the phenomenon of women not really wanting those jobs because they don't want to be in the club. It doesn't interest them. i know of a few that do but its not going to happen for them and they know it. There are many more men vying for those positions and plenty of women at the same level of authority as those men. i, for example, am perfectly happy where i am. If they offered me more responsibility for more money there is a very good chance i would turn it down because i am just not interested in more responsibility than i already have.

This was an interesting article: Top female execs still rare, UC Davis study shows

 

[JMohegan]

i really don't think being feminine creates the ceiling.

AG, I don't disagree with anything in your post. However, I'd like to point out that "being feminine" and tit shaking or engaging in little girl manipulation are not necessarily the same thing. That is, one can be feminine without utilizing either of those tactics.

Nancy Pelosi and Dr. Rice are two examples that spring to mind. Feminine in appearance and mannerisms, but hardly tit shakers or little girl personas.

 

[ataxia.girl]

AG, I don't disagree with anything in your post. However, I'd like to point out that "being feminine" and tit shaking or engaging in little girl manipulation are not necessarily the same thing. That is, one can be feminine without utilizing either of those tactics.

Nancy Pelosi and Dr. Rice are two examples that spring to mind. Feminine in appearance and mannerisms, but hardly tit shakers or little girl personas.

Either way i don't think it creates the ceiling.

i'd say the powers i use have less to do with tits anyway. Little girl maybe but i am not disrespected for it. i make too much happen to not be respected. i have cried and asked for favors in a certain way.

i've had 3 bosses, all of whom were less intelligent and worked less hard, call me their girl friday. Its extremely insulting. i was still mormon at the time and was definitely not a tit shaker.

Girl fridays don't get promoted because no one wants to give them up. In one case i quit. In the other two i made alliances outside the department and got myself stolen out from under them.

 

[JMohegan]

Either way i don't think it creates the ceiling.

Right. But what I'm saying is that one can not reasonably expect to bust through certain ceilings using tit shaking or little girl tactics.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Right. But what I'm saying is that one can not reasonably expect to bust through certain ceilings using tit shaking or little girl tactics.

Did i say a woman could? i would think that would be obvious. How many women have actually slept their way to the top? You might be able to sleep your way into a middle management position but you ain't getting to the top that way even if you are qualified.

i just said that isn't what creates the ceiling which i thought was your intimation.

And when i talk about the glass ceiling i'm talking about the ceiling for all women, not just the ones who use their sexuality. Yes its possible a woman could ruin her own chances by shaking her own tits but i don't think its why the ceiling is there in the first place. Even if she wore a suit the chances she is getting in are extremely slim.

 

[JMohegan]

i just said that isn't what creates the ceiling which i thought was your intimation.

I can see why you had that impression; that's why I'm clarifying.

I see two "ceilings." The first, a set of obstructions in place for reasons having nothing to do with the behavior of individual women. The second, a potential obstruction caused by a woman herself.

In short, we appear to be in vehement agreement.

 

[eastern sun]

Its not going to last. The next generation of men just don't feel the same way about the opposite sex i think. They like hanging out with women after work and doing things with them socially. i think the younger generation of males is more likely to have female friends and to make alliances with females in the rat race. In corporate culture you build relationships and alliances and try to take those people with you as you move up because they are people you trust and believe you can count on.

There is also the phenomenon of women not really wanting those jobs because they don't want to be in the club. It doesn't interest them. i know of a few that do but its not going to happen for them and they know it. There are many more men vying for those positions and plenty of women at the same level of authority as those men. i, for example, am perfectly happy where i am. If they offered me more responsibility for more money there is a very good chance i would turn it down because i am just not interested in more responsibility than i already have.

I also agree with your post, and am heartened by your first point. We can credit the women's movement - and it's effect on the cultural message-making - for the changing perceptions of a generation of men.

Unfortunately, I also agree with your second point. The biggest problem for women will always be childcare, and the issue of who is going to raise and educate the next enlightened generation.

 

[Achlys]

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[Achlys]

........

 

[lennythelion]

I see two "ceilings." The first, a set of obstructions in place for reasons having nothing to do with the behavior of individual women. The second, a potential obstruction caused by a woman herself.

It is such a shame when people who should be on the same side fall in to the trap of holding fellow victims responsible. IMNSHO, it is this sort of condemnation of others who do not toe the party line or hold with feminism as described by a particular faction that makes me want to run screaming in the other direction.

For the record, I don't shake my tits or manipulate people by playing the little girl, but yes, I seduce them - with my good humour, my insightfulness, and my ability to cut through the corporate or fine-upstanding-member-of-society bullshit. Without taking this personally, but offering my experience as an example, I would have to say that the single thing that has impeded the progress I would like to have made is child-rearing. Women have to choose between kids or career - that is a fact.