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[regguy]

I've posted my first story and would love some comments. First, I can't decide if it's in the right category. I put it in Erotic Couplings, but think it might belong in Romance. I think it's plenty erotic, but I'm a romantic at heart and wonder if it might be better received in that category.

I did get an editor to help and that was very valuable, but any comments on the flow, how real it seems, etc. would be valuable. I hope to continue more stories in this vein, based on my real life experiences. Before I come off as a braggart let me add that the story is only real up to a point, then my fantasy takes over. See if you can guess where that point is.

It's called Katya's Caviar and is described as a regular guy's encounter with an exotic immigrant.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=444606

 

[elfin_odalisque]

regguy

Welcome and congratulations for steeling up the courage to publish.

Overall, I found Katya's Caviar charming and erotic and I agree with you there is not enough good March to Sptember fiction on Lit.

You need a bit more copy editing to get rid of the glitches, but that is minor.

IMO, you start poorly with all that explanation. You need a hook to get us interested and seeing the girl in the supermarket is the place to start. You can dribble out the age difference later and you really don't have to give us a blow by blow account justifying his infidelity. It's not crucial to the plot and could be dealt with in a briefer explanation.

A little more accentuation of the age and culture difference might help create tension but I thought you wrote sensitively about the couple.

The ending was a typical cliff-hanger so don't be surprised if you get loads of calls for a follow-up.

I guess it was really romance but I think you called it right with EC as you haven't promised further chapters.

I really enjoyed reading it.

Thanks

Elle

 

[regguy]

Thanks for the comments, Elle. You have encouraged me to write more. My editor also questioned the amount of "browbeating" at the beginning and I cut out some, but obviously not enough. Maybe I'll do a llittle editing before I move on to another episode.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

You story starts out like a bad Edgar Rice Burrows novel with, "I'm going to tell you the story of..." That killls is right there. Burrows got away with it 100 years ago. None of us can today. This comes across like you are TELLING a story not SHOWING it.

A few of your paragraphs as way too long. Make them short and percise. The maximum length should be 8 or 9 screen lines.

You need to learn to let your characters talk more. It adds interest and fleshes out the characters so we get to know them. Part of your problem here is you have written in first person POV. Just look at the numbr of paragraphs that begin with "I". Your paragraphs begin with ... "I'm"... "MY"... "I"... "I"... "I"... "She"... "Now, I"... "I"... And finally your characters have the oportunity to speak.

If you got away from TELLING this story to letting your characters SHOW us the story, you wouldn't have that.

 

[sr71plt]

For the 144th time, there's nothing wrong (and everything right for erotica) in writing in first-person POV. Nor does first-person POV give any impediment to showing rather than telling. In fact, the urge to "tell" is stronger in using third-person POV, because third-person is already a "telling" mode you have to break out of to be able to "show," whereas first person can directly and naturally translation the senses to the reader within the POV.

If you can't master showing and telling, the mode you're writing in isn't your problem.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

For the 144th time, there's nothing wrong (and everything right for erotica) in writing in first-person POV. Nor does first-person POV give any impediment to showing rather than telling. In fact, the urge to "tell" is stronger in using third-person POV, because third-person is already a "telling" mode you have to break out of to be able to "show," whereas first person can directly and naturally translation the senses to the reader within the POV.

If you can't master showing and telling, the mode you're writing in isn't your problem.

SR, in this case the writer did nothing but TELL for 13 paragraphs, essential 1/3 of the entire write.

I know you write in first person. I have used it sucessfully from time to time too. The point is, it get's boring beginning every paragraph with "I" as well as a number of sentences within the paragraphs. These people have to learn to be more creative than that. First person is conducive to using the single pronoun "I". That's what I'm trying to get across to them.

As far as third person being a TELLING mode, yes, it is, but not when you allow your characters to do the talking and let them SHOW the story to the reader.

 

[sr71plt]

SR, in this case the writer did nothing but TELL for 13 paragraphs, essential 1/3 of the entire write.

I know you write in first person. I have used it sucessfully from time to time too. The point is, it get's boring beginning every paragraph with "I" as well as a number of sentences within the paragraphs. These people have to learn to be more creative than that. First person is conducive to using the single pronoun "I". That's what I'm trying to get across to them.

As far as third person being a TELLING mode, yes, it is, but not when you allow your characters to do the talking and let them SHOW the story to the reader.

I didn't read the story and for all I know it has something in it that could be corrected.

I was responding to a sweeping generalization that I think is wrong headed. Showing/Telling is a separate issue from POV. The repeating of he/she/they in third person can be just as much a problem as overusing I and me in first-person.

So, for the 145th time, writing first-person POV is not in itself a problem or to be avoided--especially for erotica, which can benefit from the intimacy that first person gives above the other choices. If there are problems in a story, they'd probably be there if it was written in third person too. Change from writing in first person to third person is not the magic-bullet answer to the problems in a story that you and Elfin like to knee-jerk make it.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Well then, SR, next time read the story before shooting your mouth off about your pet peeve and piss poor advice meant only to show what a fabulous intellect you are and confuse the new guy. Again you've failed in both intellect and confusion.

 

[sr71plt]

Well then, SR, next time read the story before shooting your mouth off about your pet peeve and piss poor advice meant only to show what a fabulous intellect you are and confuse the new guy. Again you've failed in both intellect and confusion.

No, it wasn't about the specific story. It was about your sweeping generalization. The next time you post a sweeping generalization as if you had the training to make such a generalization (which you obviously don't), I'll be right along to say you're being wrongheaded. It doesn't help a new writer one iota to lead them down the false paths you sometimes do.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

No, it wasn't about the specific story. It was about your sweeping generalization. The next time you post a sweeping generalization as if you had the training to make such a generalization (which you obviously don't), I'll be right along to say you're being wrongheaded. It doesn't help a new writer one iota to lead them down the false paths you sometimes do.

sr, you can be a turd at times.

If you haven't got the courtesy to read the story before you go into premature ejaculation, you give nothing to this forum.

We are not talking Kerouac or Hemingway here and, to be really brutal, your handling of first person is bit shaky.

The POV is fucking difficult - impressive when done well - but not usually the best choice for a noobie.

Dump your great ego and just help to guide guys and not impose your neofiction stuff here.

Have you put some helpful stuff in Writers' Resources?

 

[sr71plt]

Are you as dense as Jenny on this, Elfin? How many times must I say that I was responding to the wrongheaded sweeping generalization Jenny made rather than the story itself for you two to get it?

Perhaps if I put it in the third person . . .

(and neither of you--and especially not Jenny--has room to be calling anyone else a turd for what they post to the boards. In this case, I'm trying to protect new writers from self-appointed writing "experts." Problems with show/tell are not controlled by the POV used. And first person is no harder to write in for a new writer than third person is. They both have their advantages and pitfalls.)

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Are you as dense as Jenny on this, Elfin? How many times must I say that I was responding to the wrongheaded sweeping generalization Jenny made rather than the story itself for you two to get it?

Perhaps if I put it in the third person . . .

(and neither of you--and especially not Jenny--has room to be calling anyone else a turd for what they post to the boards. In this case, I'm trying to protect new writers from self-appointed writing "experts." Problems with show/tell are not controlled by the POV used. And first person is no harder to write in for a new writer than third person is. They both have their advantages and pitfalls.)

You are so arrogant.

Jenny pointed out that so many paragraphs began with 'I'. It was boring and screwed the story. When will you get it into your head that first person POV is difficult to handle and, whilst effective in erotic fiction, takes time to master.

Yup, we give simplistic advice here and instead of giving any advice, you are too egotistical to read any story before commenting, and have some contempt for basic fictional concepts.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Are you as dense as Jenny on this, Elfin? How many times must I say that I was responding to the wrongheaded sweeping generalization Jenny made rather than the story itself for you two to get it?

Perhaps if I put it in the third person . . .

(and neither of you--and especially not Jenny--has room to be calling anyone else a turd for what they post to the boards. In this case, I'm trying to protect new writers from self-appointed writing "experts." Problems with show/tell are not controlled by the POV used. And first person is no harder to write in for a new writer than third person is. They both have their advantages and pitfalls.)

SR Your GENERALIZATIONS are just as valid or invalid as mine and Elfs. Get over it.

For Regguy - as you can see, even we don't agree on many points.

 

[sr71plt]

True, anyone really curious about how the various of us make our techniques work (or not) can just go look and compare our writings right here on Lit.

 

[sr71plt]

Yup, we give simplistic advice here and instead of giving any advice, you are too egotistical to read any story before commenting, and have some contempt for basic fictional concepts.

That's a pile of crap. First, in contrast to you, I'm actually doing erotic writing and posting it on Lit. Second, I think your head would spin to know what authors here I edit for. Third, I have "How to" works posted here on writing erotica. Your one "How to" posting is about bra sizes. Fourth, I do give advice here--and on this thread, the advice I'm giving is for a new writer to beware the advice you and Jenny are giving D).

I think in terms of which one of us has the grounding to give advice on writing erotica here, I'm not the one being arrogant.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Fourth, I do give advice here--and on this thread, the advice I'm giving is for a new writer to beware the advice you and Jenny are giving D).

I think in terms of which one of us has the grounding to give advice on writing erotica here, I'm not the one being arrogant.

Well, SR, you are wrong on both counts. You don't give advice but instead come here to spew your vitrolic bullcrap because of what? Jealousy? In any case, if you are going to post here at the very least stick to the stories posted and READ them if you can. Stop your attacks. They do no good other than to confuse newbies and, I assume, run them off Lit.

If anyone on Lit is KING of the arrogant it would be a close race between YOU and SCOURIES.

I've read your stuff. Not impressed.

 

[mia_erotica]

the goddesses of Lit have spoken

I love you all. I truly do. Jenny and Elle have been very generous with their criticism, giving good suggestions. Listen to them.

 

[sr71plt]

I've read your stuff. Not impressed.

You're not nearly as good enough writer yourself--certainly nothing close to good enough in analyzing a story or even having the grasp of good storytelling or the fundamentals of writing--for that to bother me, Jenny. You don't even write erotica, not really.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

sr,

Calming down and being rational, I would first say that an arcane debate of the literary merits of first person POV is the last thing on the minds of most guys who ask for a review here. To wade in with a generalised bee in your bonnet without giving the writer the courtesy of reading their story is really impolite. They want to know if they're on the right track to be popular with the readers.

As I have told you before, I think 1st person can make fantastic fiction. With Hemingway's miserly use of narration, the wave of dialogue with the POV is very intense. I don't think Patricia Cornwell handles it so well with her Scarpetta novels. Funny, she's just switched back to 3rd for latest two and they are much more dramatic.

All I am trying to do - I think like Jenny, Lynn and others - is to point out that 3rd person is much more sophisticated for basic storytelling than the 1st person style we learnt in Junior School to report what we did on summer break. "I went to the cabin. I swam in the lake every day, I was sad when we came home."

There are some problems, which you don't see as you sit on your cloud of perfect fiction.

Often, first person is not used as a way to express deep, exquisite prose but a reversion to a simplistic style that doesn't gel well with readers. There is a tendency to avoid the feelings of other characters.

Even worse, new writers in first person often address the readership, "I want to tell you that. . ." There is no bigger turn-off and you are not helping anyone by suggesting it is acceptable.

Your promotion of a very sophisticated writing style - albeit readable - does nothing to help new writers improve. In fact, it is probably counter-productive as you evangelisize something that is at best a minority approach.

What we uneducated, illiterate, encouragers of stories promote is a view that the story flow is simply constructed with grammar that melts into the background and a tale that bites us from the start and holds us to the conclusion.

You have just an approach to fiction that arrogant, constipated writers who despise those that try , should be embarrassingly ashamed of.

 

[sr71plt]

sr,

Calming down and being rational, I would first say that an arcane debate of the literary merits of first person POV is the last thing on the minds of most guys who ask for a review here.

I quite agree and now you are tailing on to my point. If you think a story is using I/me too much, it's not because the story is in 1st person--which is what you and Jenny zip right to in your sweeping generalization "critiques"--it's because I/me are being used to distraction (in your view) in that specific story. It has little to do with writing in 1st person. You could say the same thing about a 3rd person story where he/she were being used to distraction. So stop giving the false sweeping generalization and zero in on the specific problem you see in that specific story: the perceived overuse of specific words. And stop blaming it on the use of 1st person POV.

And as an aside on Jenny's oft "give them a name up front" jab, not giving your narrator a name in 1st person is a perfectly legitimate literary technique (although it tends to become strained the longer the work is). Having to have names up front is just a personal Jenny bugaboo probably caused by not reading much of anything that is literary or complex.

To wade in with a generalised bee in your bonnet without giving the writer the courtesy of reading their story is really impolite. They want to know if they're on the right track to be popular with the readers.

This is a bee in your bonnet, not mine--and your failure and/or unwillingness to recognize that I can respond to a sweeping generalization in a posted "critique" without any specific reference to the specific story being critiqued at all. My objection was that Jenny was making an irrelevant sweeping generalization (if I think you are using too many I/me identifiers, it's because you should be writing in the 3rd person). Hers is a nonsensical non sequitur.

I wasn't dinging on the writer, I was dinging on the unconstructive irrelevance of the critiquer. So, there's no discourtesy to the writer at all.

And you end with your oft-used crazy notion that you have some handle on what is popular (or should be) with readers. You don't. You haven't contributed anything to Lit. for readers to respond to for years--and even there, you didn't contribute much of anything. You know squat about reader reaction to a Lit. story--other than your own personal opinion/prejudices/half-baked notions.

 

[_Lynn_]

sr,

Calming down and being rational, I would first say that an arcane debate of the literary merits of first person POV is the last thing on the minds of most guys who ask for a review here. To wade in with a generalised bee in your bonnet without giving the writer the courtesy of reading their story is really impolite. They want to know if they're on the right track to be popular with the readers.

As I have told you before, I think 1st person can make fantastic fiction. With Hemingway's miserly use of narration, the wave of dialogue with the POV is very intense. I don't think Patricia Cornwell handles it so well with her Scarpetta novels. Funny, she's just switched back to 3rd for latest two and they are much more dramatic.

All I am trying to do - I think like Jenny, Lynn and others - is to point out that 3rd person is much more sophisticated for basic storytelling than the 1st person style we learnt in Junior School to report what we did on summer break. "I went to the cabin. I swam in the lake every day, I was sad when we came home."

There are some problems, which you don't see as you sit on your cloud of perfect fiction.

Often, first person is not used as a way to express deep, exquisite prose but a reversion to a simplistic style that doesn't gel well with readers. There is a tendency to avoid the feelings of other characters.

Even worse, new writers in first person often address the readership, "I want to tell you that. . ." There is no bigger turn-off and you are not helping anyone by suggesting it is acceptable.

Your promotion of a very sophisticated writing style - albeit readable - does nothing to help new writers improve. In fact, it is probably counter-productive as you evangelisize something that is at best a minority approach.

What we uneducated, illiterate, encouragers of stories promote is a view that the story flow is simply constructed with grammar that melts into the background and a tale that bites us from the start and holds us to the conclusion.

You have just an approach to fiction that arrogant, constipated writers who despise those that try , should be embarrassingly ashamed of.

As a preference, I don't care for 1st person most of the time, that's true.

Other than making mention of too many "I" sentences, I don't remember ever telling anyone here which POV is 'more sophisticated', or which they 'should' use. That choice is up to the author, not me. Grammatical errors, inconsistencies, or problems within the story is what I look for and offer my opinion on. How many of the first-time writers even know much about POV?

If you want to tell people which POV they 'should' write in, that's fine. But please don't involve me in this ongoing discussion on it.

 

[sr71plt]

Your promotion of a very sophisticated writing style - albeit readable - does nothing to help new writers improve. In fact, it is probably counter-productive as you evangelisize something that is at best a minority approach.

I'll make another attempt to drive a stake into this false argument of yours. I don't promote any writing style at all. I've consistently told writers to feel free to experiment with any writing style (or POV) that feels right to them. It's you and Jenny who are trying to box the writers into your personal half-baked prejudices.

That I've pointed to the advantages of 1st person has been a result of trying to balance your crazy insistence on 3rd. (3rd POV "more sophisticated" my ass. )

 

[elfin_odalisque]

As a preference, I don't care for 1st person most of the time, that's true.

Other than making mention of too many "I" sentences, I don't remember ever telling anyone here which POV is 'more sophisticated', or which they 'should' use. That choice is up to the author, not me. Grammatical errors, inconsistencies, or problems within the story is what I look for and offer my opinion on. How many of the first-time writers even know much about POV?

If you want to tell people which POV they 'should' write in, that's fine. But please don't involve me in this ongoing discussion on it.

Sorry, in an attempt at brevity, I stuck too many concepts together and inadvertently implied things I shouldn't have.

sr

I've just done a quick flick through the first page of new stories. None of these asked for advice/comment so I didn't give it except on a poignant story of a mute gay guy facing his demons. Nice use of first person.

From my quick review I found that about 30-40% had chosen 1st p, a third of those coupling it with anonymous 2nd p. Most of them were getting lower scores and comments than those writing in 3rd p.

Doesn't that tell you something?

If you don't speak Swahili fluently, don't try and write in Swahili. The same kind of argument applies to first person.

I guess my basic disagreement with you is the same as I have with 'progressive' junior school teachers who want the kids to 'express themselves'. There is no substitute for the back-breaking work of learning the rules of the game.

Encouraging promising neophye writers to make avoidable mistakes by trying to fly before they have learnt to walk puts you in the category of arrogant people who have contempt for those you despise.

You have no understanding of popular fiction.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, I've known for some time that trying to reason with you on this is talking to a blank wall, Elfin. So I'll just continue to post "hey, wait, look around" posts when you and Jenny point writers toward your little box--to try to introduce a little balance into your writing guidance inanities.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Yes, I've known for some time that trying to reason with you on this is talking to a blank wall, Elfin. So I'll just continue to post "hey, wait, look around" posts when you and Jenny point writers toward your little box--to try to introduce a little balance into your writing guidance inanities.

No,you never try to reason, you are one of those creative writer fascists that has no sympathy for the new guys here - you don't read them, you don't help them.

The crap you preach must go down well in little gatherings of the blessed - but doesn't help anyone here who wants to write stories readers like to post here.

I take your venom as a compliment that I'm doing OK.