Democracy

[Liar]

Agreed. People are generally not idiots. But people in general are not omniscient reinnesance men either. The ratinality of the everyday man is limited to the time he or she can devote to community desicion making. And many times, issues can be quite complex and require time and effort to form an informed opinion about. Even in the top levels of politics, this happens. Doesn't republicans in Washington complain right now that the health care bill is too big for anyone to read and understand it all? And people can and do propose and vote through legislation that maybe wasn't that well thought through. Even when there are pro politicians involved. A handful of California propositions come to mind.

 

[Pure]

note to liar

those are good points, liar. people ARE shortsighted, and individually and collectively selfish. the (coastal) city of Victoria BC has voted to discharge its sewage, untreated, just offshore.

towns, too, have voted to 'close down saloons.'

as far as the future, yes. individuals and town councils may, unknowingly (at first), vote for refrigeration facilities that use freon, now known to be harmfull to the atmosphere.

my point was, as illustrated by universal healthcare plans in dozens of countries, people, being aware that their taxes pay for benefits, do not vote for luxury hospitals, offering champagne in the waiting rooms, to anyone exercising a right to walk in and demand treatment for a tiny mole.

the UNwisdom of the public, even its hysteria, does exist, but it's not the phenomenon described by the right wing.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

People have been on the planet a long time. We know what works. Life is not a big, fucking mystery that changes every time we spin the roulette wheel. You dont tug on Supermans cape, you dont spit in the wind, you dont piss on electric fences, and you dont fuck around with me.

But most of us still suck on cigarettes, we bond with toothless sociopaths, and blame every goddamned misfortune and negligence on the other guy.

Rational? Kiss my fat ass!

 

[Boxlicker101]

People have been on the planet a long time. We know what works. Life is not a big, fucking mystery that changes every time we spin the roulette wheel. You dont tug on Supermans cape, you dont spit in the wind, you dont piss on electric fences, and you dont fuck around with me.

But most of us still suck on cigarettes, we bond with toothless sociopaths, and blame every goddamned misfortune and negligence on the other guy.

Rational? Kiss my fat ass!

Most people in the USA do not smoke, largely as a result of the government run campaign against it. Most people don't bond with sociopaths either, even though some bleeding heart judges and politicians try to force us to do so.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BOX

People know what they should do and they dont. Simple as that.

Why, man, he doth bestride the narrow world
Like a Colossus; and we petty men
Walk under his huge legs, and peep about
To find ourselves dishonourable graves.
Men at some time are masters of their fates:
The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves,

 

[Pure]

jbj

jbjPeople have been on the planet a long time. [pure's bolding]We know what works. Life is not a big, fucking mystery that changes every time we spin the roulette wheel. You dont tug on Supermans cape, you dont spit in the wind, you dont piss on electric fences, and you dont fuck around with me.

But most of us still suck on cigarettes, we bond with toothless sociopaths, and blame every goddamned misfortune and negligence on the other guy.

Rational? Kiss my fat ass!
__________________

as you say, humans generally "know what works" and do it.
they don't shit in their beds.


that is one definition of rationality: employing/choosing suitable means to the desired ends.

indeed, i'd venture it's an axiom of biology that individuals-- dog or human-- are mostly doing 'what works' in the areas of their welfare. i.e., their behavior, in general, is fundamentally rational, as described.

animals, in the wild especially, do not overeat. humans managed this bit of rationality for millennia.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

PURE

Plenty created an ecological niche for human parasites.

 

[Boxlicker101]

BOX

People know what they should do and they dont. Simple as that.

Most people know what is good for them and their families, and they do it. Most people can recognize what's bad for them and theirs, and they refrain from doing it. Smoking is a good example. Fifty or so years ago, most adults smoked. Now, most of them don't.

At one time, the idiot gov. of MA thought it was a good idea to let depraved criminals, such as Willie Horton, run loose on weekend furloughs. Once this became common knowledge, they voted against the idiot when he was running for pres. At one time, CA was plagued with a pack of idiots on the State Supreme Court, all nominated by Governor Moonbeam, who opposed capital punishment and dug up any feeble excuse they could to delay or prevent executions. When the people had a chance, they booted the idiots from the court.

When offered a chance, people will vote in favor of what they perceive as their best interests. If their "best interests" are not really involved, they will vote their consciences or personal feelings, as in the recent Prop. 8. Enough people felt squeamish about gay marriage that they voted for the prop. but this will probably change in the near future.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BOX

We can go back and forth forever doing CAN TO, CAN NOT. Based on my experiences and the confirmation I get from testimonials, 95% of humanity goes for the easiest payoff that satisifes their basic needs. I dont buy any of THE WALTONS bull shit exhorted from the pulpit or city hall. I've seen and experienced too much.

Thats not the look of love you see in her eyes, she's mentally measuring you for a noose and delighted with her estimate.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Demos, the people, are still as easily subverted as when the word was coined by the Greeks. Democracy, like capitalism, is far from perfect but is the best system we have developed.

Of course it is partially subverted by the rich and the powerful, but the intrinsic separation of the executive, the judiciary and the legislature gives a power to the plebiscite that no other system can do.

A cursory examination of the way the European executive is trying to eliminate vox populus by imposing repeat referendums and castrating countries' rights of opposition to central unelected diktat, would show that, probably alone in the world today, the US is keeping the ideal of democracy alive.

The united Europe that will emerge will probably be more like Constantine's Dominate, not a Republic, and certainly not a Democracy.

Not that democracy can last once the masses sell their votes for money from the public coffers, and they have. Same with republics, such as ours. The people have sold their birthright, at the risk of sounding biblical.

Freedom isn't free, but apparently it's for sale.

 

[ericahope]

democracy.

What is it?

Is it essentially equivalent to, or resulting in mobocracy?

Is the US a democracy?

Are there countries with MORE democracy than the US? (name and explain)

What measures or indicies would you use to measure 'democracy'?

I think a good question to add to this list is "Depending on how you define a democracy, would it be desirable?"

Under my definition, I'd say no. I don't want "the people" to do the job of governing. I don't want 50 percent plus one of the population making laws for me.

Erica

 

[ericahope]

Demos, the people, are still as easily subverted as when the word was coined by the Greeks. Democracy, like capitalism, is far from perfect but is the best system we have developed.

Of course it is partially subverted by the rich and the powerful, but the intrinsic separation of the executive, the judiciary and the legislature gives a power to the plebiscite that no other system can do.

A cursory examination of the way the European executive is trying to eliminate vox populus by imposing repeat referendums and castrating countries' rights of opposition to central unelected diktat, would show that, probably alone in the world today, the US is keeping the ideal of democracy alive.

Ah, Elle, you are not only a talented writer but quite perceptive in other matters

Erica

 

[Liar]

Under my definition, I'd say no. I don't want "the people" to do the job of governing. I don't want 50 percent plus one of the population making laws for me.

Erica

Fair enough. But it begs the question, who then DO you want making laws for you?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericahope
Under my definition, I'd say no. I don't want "the people" to do the job of governing. I don't want 50 percent plus one of the population making laws for me.

Erica

Fair enough. But it begs the question, who then DO you want making laws for you?

I was wondering about that too, Erica. Is it better to have a group of people who have been elected by about one fourth of "the people" do the job of governing? Especially considering how beholden most of that group of people are to the special interests who helped them get elected, or to the people who have bribed them.

In all honesty, rule by referendum would be too slow and unwieldy for general use with any large group of voters, but it would probably be a good idea to have it available sometimes. Maybe the states could hold referendums on whether or not to approve Constitutional amendments instead of having the legislatures doing it. I'm certain that Prohibition would not have been approved by the voters.

 

[Handley_Page]

A cursory examination of the way the European executive is trying to eliminate vox populus by imposing repeat referendums and castrating countries' rights of opposition to central unelected diktat, would show that, probably alone in the world today, the US is keeping the ideal of democracy alive.

What a frightening thought.
Personally, I don't mind a Europe ties with good Trade rules and standards, but the thought that some bloody "Commissioner" (or whoever) thinks he/she knows what I need is anathema.
I do hope the Irish say NO.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

What a frightening thought.
Personally, I don't mind a Europe ties with good Trade rules and standards, but the thought that some bloody "Commissioner" (or whoever) thinks he/she knows what I need is anathema.
I do hope the Irish say NO.

It is the road to autocracy. You Europeans have come full circle.

 

[3113]

Fair enough. But it begs the question, who then DO you want making laws for you?

Technocracy? Just sayin'.