Pornography in the service of women

[Huckleman2000]

From Camille Paglia's column at Salon (there are links in the original)

I have found the Holy Grail of lesbian dirty movies. I have read that you (like me) are more attracted to straight and bisexual women than to lesbians. My taste in porn dates back to the '70s and my dad's collection of Penthouse magazines that my brother and I would find under the bed. I have often wondered why there is no lesbian porn like that -- really erotic, beautiful women who look like they are into it.

"Girl on Girl" material for straight men is usually disappointing, with lots of giggling and glancing at the cameraman. I feel like I should watch so-called dyke porn, but starting with "On Our Backs" and now its heirs like "The Crash Pad," those lesbian-targeted products adhere to a different aesthetic than what I can relate to. Lots of piercing, tattoos, boi models, etc.

I just discovered a couple of studios that use hot women who genuinely love women, with an emphasis on psychological connection, drama, passion but with the focus on hardcore action. Check out "Sweetheart Video," anything by Viv Thomas, and also Girlfriends Films and a few others. A good Web site to check out is lezlove.com. They cater to straight men, lesbians, couples -- a peaceable kingdom of pervs. This video is a YouTube appropriate PG-13 mash-up I made with clips featuring the gorgeous, passionate Samantha Ryan. She also does mainstream adult films that are unsexy and inane, but in these indie films she is an amazing artist and apparently a black belt in lesbian sex. I hope it cheers you up!
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Lisa Moscatiello

What a fun way to end this month's column! Thanks a million for your spicy contribution. Let's hope other Salon readers will weigh in on the vexed question of lesbo porn, most of which I find hopelessly banal. Your beloved Samantha Ryan reminds me of the Swedish-French actress Marika Green, who played Bee, the swashbuckling blonde in a safari jacket who conquers Sylvia Kristel's heart in the first, best "Emmanuelle" movie (1974). Oh, those were the days of sophisticated eroticism!

The sad truth is that the hottest lesbo scenes ever committed to film were enacted by straight women -- Catherine Deneuve and Susan Sarandon in "The Hunger," Helen Shaver and Patricia Charbonneau in "Desert Hearts," Stephane Audran and Jacqueline Sassard in "Les Biches." Even in Showtime's "The L Word," which degenerated into psychopathological bathos, the straight Jennifer Beals was stratospherically hotter than the sole, sad-sack lesbian actress on that series. All this propaganda about the era of the lipstick lesbian! Under the surface, it seems to be the same old dreary soap opera, tarted up in fancy new rags.

After a lifetime of observation, I must regretfully conclude that men make everything hotter -- whether in gay or straight porn. I don't mean men have to be concretely present, only implied as the ultimate audience for primo sexual display. Let's turn from Nordic Samantha Ryan to two Brazilian peacocks on parade -- Daniela Mercury and another singer, Aline Rosa, in their now notorious kiss on a TV show last year, clearly a homage to the Madonna-Britney Spears caper of 2005.

The entire erotic charge of this flamenco-like pas de deux comes from the confident heterosexuality of both women, who project a natural bisexual responsiveness that I think is terrific. If this is some new Brazilian synthesis, I'm all for it. Let the exports begin! By the way, the classic hit song that Daniela and Aline are singing, "A Night and a Half," was written by the famous Marina Lima, a lesbian with a bisexual history. It's a seduction fantasy, full of imagery of beaches and nakedness. But for me the half-clothed is always more piquant than the nude -- as in the swaggering Daniela's man-tailored vest. Elegant and dapper!

 

[Stella_Omega]

So have you thought about my question;

Why do you suppose that I get off on these images of women in hardcore bondage, when I don't like other images of women in hardcore bondage?

Genuine lesbian films are easier to come by than genuine het films.

 

[Huckleman2000]

So have you thought about my question; Genuine lesbian films are easier to come by than genuine het films.

I must reiterate that I really don't care to direct my comments to your own particular tastes, except insofar as I think you're trying to get me to see something applicable to a broader sensibility.

When I looked at the preview pages for those BDSM scenes, what made it interesting for me was the post-scene shots where the actresses were smiling and looking satisfied. If those type of BDSM scenes are, indeed, archetypal for women's sexuality, then it doesn't surprise me that women performing with women are much better at portraying it than male/female pairs. I would think that those scenes rely far more on sort of a structured improvisation, whereas with het scenes, the director is probably going down a checklist of every sex act the actress has agreed to perform, so as to satisfy the tastes of as broad a spectrum of wankers as possible. Everyone then just fast-forwards to the part where they're doing whatever gets them off the most, wanks to that, end of story.

 

[Stella_Omega]

First of all, that site is not lesbian, it's het.

And they are not archetypical for all women's sexuality. However there are some elements that, if a woman were interested in bondage, she might appreciate in these pictures;

When I looked at the preview pages for those BDSM scenes, what made it interesting for me was the post-scene shots where the actresses were smiling and looking satisfied.

Yes.

More than that, the after-scene shots make it quite clear that the men (this is a het site) who do the topping care about the women's emotional space and about their pleasure.

I don't know if I can possibly emphasize that enough. These guys don't rely on actress O faces to signify female pleasure; they know better. And we get natural expressions (which we are perfectly capable of reading, for crissake) of women in the throes of orgasm.

Other things;

•The images are not single images; they show a sequence that allows me to get a feeling for the subject, sensually and emotionally.

•The women are shown whole body in most of the images. These guys know that her pussy is only one part of her, and that the rest of her is as involved as it is.

•If you read the descriptions under the sequences, you will get many clues about the viewpoint of this studio. For all the fierce talk, they really, really care about their bottoms. One of the descriptions mentions that the woman needed "some time to collect herself before continuing." This means that her emotional comfort was important enough that they stopped the scene for her. That reassures me in regards to respect, which as you know I am very sensitive about.

•Plus, those bodies being pushed to their limits... are fucking gorgeous!

If I had a complaint about this site it would be that I'd like to see men in this kind of bondage as well as women.

And I would love to find these qualities in, as I've said, vanilla, hetero porn. And as I said, I have hopes for this site.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not even an "oh, I get it," or "dunno what you mean, Stella."

Heh.

 

[CharleyH]

So have you thought about my question; Genuine lesbian films are easier to come by than genuine het films.

Fab question! Good God, I have probably seen more porn that anyone on Lit. Having said that, I can say for certainty that there are more (not many) genuine lesbian and queer films than straight ones.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Fab question! Good God, I have probably seen more porn that anyone on Lit. Having said that, I can say for certainty that there are more (not many) genuine lesbian and queer films than straight ones.

Charley, this is the link I had posted. Once more folks, this is very, very hardcore bondage and sexual "torture" done on women, it's run by heterosexual men, and will horrify many people, as we have seen. So,click at your own risk.

It occurs to me that this link is the epitome of the original question, which resulted from a study, after all, of De Sade. If you want to know what sadistic porn that serves women well looks like-- there it is, and I assure you it's less "sadistic" than anything De Sade envisaged.

 

[CharleyH]

Charley, this is the link I had posted. Once more folks, this is very, very hardcore bondage and sexual "torture" done on women, it's run by heterosexual men, and will horrify many people, as we have seen. So,click at your own risk.

It occurs to me that this link is the epitome of the original question, which resulted from a study, after all, of De Sade. If you want to know what sadistic porn that serves women well looks like-- there it is, and I assure you it's less "sadistic" than anything De Sade envisaged.

It is late here tonight and I am just looking back, (don't want to see it before bed) but marking your link, Stell.

CH xo

 

[CharleyH]

Jesus, I had this whole shpeel about fem-porn, then I finally was able to link to 'Device Bondage'. I LOVE this company's work. Nothing much to say, other than that, Stell.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Jesus, I had this whole shpeel about fem-porn, then I finally was able to link to 'Device Bondage'. I LOVE this company's work. Nothing much to say, other than that, Stell.

It's so easy to talk about what gets us riled up, isn't it? But yeah, this company makes me feel like I don't need to argue.

I do think it's the perfect answer to the original question. It truly points out De Sade's deficiencies as a pornographer and as a freind to women-- or anyone, really...

Angela Carter, I now propose, let herself get pimped-- she fell victim to intermittent reinforcement. Managing to find one or two examples, in De Sade, of what she hoped for but could not find anywhere else, she felt gratitude, so to speak, out of proportion to the favor, equally so to speak.

 

[Kev H]

Not even an "oh, I get it," or "dunno what you mean, Stella."

Heh.

No clue what you're talking about, but I sense you're trying not to feel so alone. Seriously, the post-copy of Paglia's column reminded me of this impressive site, so I thought I'd share (especially watch the "Liandra & Lylac" sample): http://www.ifeelmyself.com/public/main.php?page=goodies

 

[Stella_Omega]

No clue what you're talking about, but I sense you're trying not to feel so alone.

I was talking about the harangues a couple of gentlemen have been indulging in on this thread, and the resounding silence that's resulted since my contribution. Which is pretty amusing to me.


One of the constant misapprehensions in this convo -- and in the same convo in other places on the net-- has been this idea that women don't like hardcore, and when hardcore is defined by the men who think this way, it's very often true. I was challenged to prove that porn could be intrinsically arousing to women, without being all softcore and lovey-dovey, you know... unmanly.

Evidently I offered an example that went way past some people's expectations.

Seriously, the post-copy of Paglia's column reminded me of this impressive site, so I thought I'd share (especially watch the "Liandra & Lylac" sample): http://www.ifeelmyself.com/public/main.php?page=goodies

yeah, lovely!

 

[Huckleman2000]

I was talking about the harangues a couple of gentlemen have been indulging in on this thread, and the resounding silence that's resulted since my contribution. Which is pretty amusing to me.


One of the constant misapprehensions in this convo -- and in the same convo in other places on the net-- has been this idea that women don't like hardcore, and when hardcore is defined by the men who think this way, it's very often true. I was challenged to prove that porn could be intrinsically arousing to women, without being all softcore and lovey-dovey, you know... unmanly.

Evidently I offered an example that went way past some people's expectations. yeah, lovely!

Oh please, now you're just blatantly baiting.

I think I actually kind of 'get' those "device torture" sequences. If I was to get into BDSM, I think I would be a "moderate sub". I'm sorry I mistook them for lesbian, but you would agree, I assume, that the scenes are all about the women. The tops are really there to play a role; frankly, a somewhat dehumanized one. Most of the scenes involve vibrators, ropes, clothespins, and elaborate systems where one woman's torture somehow affects another's. The few scenes where a penis makes an appearance seem to be about adding an element of humiliation, and/or perhaps some sort of "good girl! you made it cum!" authority-figure-thing. And, while there is certainly a good deal of improvisation in the scenes, by their very nature they must be choreographed and outlined. Everyone knows that at the end of it, the women are set free and go home a little sore, but presumably none the worse for the experience.

It reminds me of feelings I get when I'm onstage acting in front of an audience. The trick of acting, for me, is that I know the sequence of emotions that my character is going to go through, and what happens at the end of them. I'm not afraid of the unknown, so much; I can let my body experience and convey those emotions deeply and extravagantly, even as my mind sort of sits on the sidelines and coaches without getting too much in the way. At the end of a scene, I may feel emotionally exhausted, but it's also a cathartic experience for the body. I've let the adrenaline flow, and pent-up stresses flow out with it.
eta: What's similar is that, like the women in a BDSM scenes, an actor puts his body and nervous system through an artificially-constructed experience of some intensity. And, for the body, it doesn't really matter so much that it's an artifice - the "feelings" still seem like a real experience. The hormones flow, the muscles tense and release, and if I wasn't playing for an audience, I imagine that in some scenes it could lead to some intense orgasms.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Naw, not baiting, Huck, just saying it the way I see it. Y'all keep making assumptions that my politics dictate my porn likes and dislikes, and that, therefore, I must only enjoy that which my puritanical feminist mind can approve of.

Perhaps I've given you some clues to the contrary for fuck's sake.


I like your musings, although-- far from artifice, the experiences the women are having are quite real. Real like a roller coaster, yeah?

The women have already talked with the guys about what they would like to do, what they will put up with doing, and what they absolutely will not do. If she can't hang upside down, for instance, she'll have let them know. If mummification and forced orgasms are something she's always wanted to do, she'll let the tops know. And the scene will be planned around those things--, there's no stopping the train, once she steps on board, but she takes part in writing her ticket.

The metaquality of BDSM experiences would be a different thread topic, though-- don't you think? In this thread, despite every detour, we are trying to talk about sexual entertainment that is for women.

I'm sorry I mistook them for lesbian, but you would agree, I assume, that the scenes are all about the women.

Despite my saying so very clearly, in the link, that it's a het site. I'm so tempted to make jokes about men who don't listen.

 

[xssve]

I don't believe I've actually posted more than one or two images in the themes I personally prefer - which runs more to the device bondage you linked to - I'm all into that, don't even get me started - although my own dominant tendencies probably run to more of Svengali complex than a sadistic one, i.e., SM as a means to an end, which I may or may not end up elucidating further on - rather my intent has been from the beginning to present as wide a variety as possible and to that end have posted at best, one or two random examples from a few of the more popular categories, which represents only a fraction of the categories available - I don't believe I posted any cheerleader porn, hit a couple of cosplay stuff tangentially, deliberately avoided scat and bestiality, and the more squeamish of the Loli stuff for reasons I don't believe I need to explain, but they are there.

I got into it with Recidiva in fact over a a girl-and-her-dog poster on the GB many moons ago - her position being that it's nonconsensual for the dog, and therefore animal abuse, my position being that a dog will fuck just about anything given half a chance - that's why they call them dogs. Most people just squicked and started hatein' on her, and said poster, needless to say, soon bounced out for greener pastures, whereas I personally thought she may have been merely making the best of a bad situation, who knows? I've just spent Two weeks listening to men make excuses for why they don't like to to munch the carpet, and people fuck weirder things than dogs.

Speaking of tangentials...

But all very much beside the point, the real point being, I don't go for any of these things particularly either, but they are valid as categories of porn - as is incest, of which there are numerous examples on this very website, and it clearly does do it for a lot of people or it wouldn't be there - no?

Anyway, you wanna post pics of device bondage, I have no objection whatsoever.

 

[xssve]

Check this entry off the same blog: Saudi Girls Gone Wild

 

[Huckleman2000]

Naw, not baiting, Huck, just saying it the way I see it. Y'all keep making assumptions that my politics dictate my porn likes and dislikes, and that, therefore, I must only enjoy that which my puritanical feminist mind can approve of.

Perhaps I've given you some clues to the contrary for fuck's sake.

I like your musings, although-- far from artifice, the experiences the women are having are quite real. Real like a roller coaster, yeah?

The women have already talked with the guys about what they would like to do, what they will put up with doing, and what they absolutely will not do. If she can't hang upside down, for instance, she'll have let them know. If mummification and forced orgasms are something she's always wanted to do, she'll let the tops know. And the scene will be planned around those things--, there's no stopping the train, once she steps on board, but she takes part in writing her ticket.

The metaquality of BDSM experiences would be a different thread topic, though-- don't you think? In this thread, despite every detour, we are trying to talk about sexual entertainment that is for women.

Despite my saying so very clearly, in the link, that it's a het site. I'm so tempted to make jokes about men who don't listen.

It's not an exclusively het site, and that's clear from the descriptions, regardless of how clearly you said so. There are scenes involving multiple women, including women as "guest tops", and models are specifically called lesbians.

As to the metaquality of BDSM, I would argue that is precisely the point. The physical experiences are certainly real, but the circumstances of the scene are an elaborate artiface. It's the mise-en-scene. It's set up to give the "victims" the thrill of putting up resistance - the sense of bravado that they go further before succumbing, or something. Your misplaced sense of persecution reinforces this impression. I don't think anyone has suggested that it's your politics that "dictate [your] porn likes and dislikes", and I certainly haven't assumed that you're puritanical.

I've posted articles about what women have found they like. I've tried to relate to some of it using analogs from my own experience. I'm glad you've found stuff that gets you off - I was pretty sure it's out there for anyone who cares to find it. Rather than a thread about what gets women off, you seem to want to talk about what gets Stella off. I keep saying I don't want to get into that. It's an argument I can't win with rules I don't know.

 

[Stella_Omega]

And do you understand why I posted that particular site -- can you repeat the reasons I gave for it being women-friendly porn?

What was the original context of this thread?

I was pretty sure it's out there for anyone who cares to find it.

You'd be pretty wrong, actually.

I've been looking and looking for examples of vanilla porn that include;

Context,

Contact,

Whole body shots,

Mutual concern,

A non-reliance on dick-in-pussy shots.

I found the one studio that claims to offer film of that nature-- and it's really tiring to view so much offensive crap during the search. I have been reminded pretty forcibly of why I prefer written words during this exercise.