Homosexuality, Bisexuality, and labels

[JamesSD]

I'm a big Dan Savage fan; listen to his podcast and read his column regularly. In the past months he's been drawn into a specific debate: Women who call themselves Lesbian but are curious to sleep with a man.

Dan Savage tends to take the position that people are free to label themselves what they want, partially because of the complications involved with transgendered persons. Labels can be restrictive, especially when placed on someone by outsiders.

Still, many lesbians get angry with him, proclaiming that any woman who is interested in men sexually isn't really a lesbian, and is only propagating the myth that all lesbians secretly crave the cock.

Personally, I think a big part of the problem comes from the way we talk about sexuality, and the assumptions we make. These aren't my attitudes per say, but more how I perceive general society's attitudes:

A woman who is "heterosexual" may dabble with women, including kissing and even experimenting in college or before, or even have bisexual group sex experiences, but exclusively dates and partners with men.

A woman who is "bisexual" may date both genders, but is often distrusted by lesbians, with the assumption she will ultimately want to end up with a man.

A woman who is a Lesbian is expected to solely date and partner with women. Sexual behavior with men before realizing her nature is acceptable, but there's definitely a pressure that 'once you go to women, you don't go back'.

Heterosexual men are expected to have never had any sexual experiences with another man.

When a man is "bisexual" he tends to be viewed as a slut who doesn't care what hole he sticks it in. Due to access, they typically have sex with many more men than women. Most hetero women are distrustful to date a man who has ever had sex with another man.

Gay men can have sex with women as long as they prefer men.

Dabbling with men seems to be the least approved behavior type, both in straight men and gay women. I guess the assumption is that cock is so awesome that anyone who isn't completely repelled by it will become addicted to it.

So, litizens, my questions are:

1) Can a woman who primarily is interested in dating and having sex with women call herself a Lesbian if she has any sexual interest in men?
and
2) Can a man who prefers sex and dating with women dabble with men sexually, the same way a woman who prefers men can dabble with women?
and finally
3) Do people have the right to label themselves, or does behavior dictate a "box" for people to fall into?

 

[lesbiaphrodite]

1. A woman can call herself anything she wants to. If she is into women primarily but likes the occasional guy, that's her business, and if she wants to call herself lesbian, sapphic, dyke or anything else it's fine by me. BUT, I'd like to know her true feelings if she were my lover. I don't want to be making a commitment to some chick who later down the line is gonna jump ship on me for a guy.

2. A man who is primarily into chicks but occasionally dreams about dicks can call himself hetero if that's how he feels. BUT, again, if he is involved in a monogamous relationship with a chick, he might want to reveal his predilictions to her for the sake of honor.

3. I personally don't like labels, but if others do, that's their choice.

 

[The_Fool]

I label myself as foolish...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I label myself as 'bear'.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Being "les but bi-curious" seems okay to me; lots of people are bi-curious. it's if her curiosity leads to further exploration-- that's when she needs to be honest about her occasional forays into bi-hood, for the reasons lesbiaphrodite has said, because lesbians, as a rule, hook up for more than one night. Women get involved with each other, real easy!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I believe that there is a joke that goes


"What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A moving van.


What does a gay guy bring on a second date? What's a second date?"


Don't ask me where I got that, I've forgotten.

 

[Xelebes]

I label myself as 'bear'.

Alien! *squee!*

 

[JamesSD]

I believe that there is a joke that goes
"What does a lesbian bring on a second date? A moving van.
What does a gay guy bring on a second date? What's a second date?"
Don't ask me where I got that, I've forgotten.

Ah, the version I heard had the same moving van line, but the gay guy line was "What does a gay guy bring on a second date? A third guy!"

 

[Zeb_Carter]

labels? They're the things I stick on my CD/DVDs so I know what on them. I have never seen a person walking down the street with a label on them. Unless their mother sewed on the shirt collar for them.

 

[sr71plt]

I label myself as little as possible. It pulls up the nap on my suede jacket.

 

[ishtat]

Labels are good - in Supermarkets.

 

[The_Fool]

I label myself as little as possible. It pulls up the nap on my suede jacket.

This just leads to "Hello my name is..." stickers, cheap wine and lite beers.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This just leads to "Hello my name is..." stickers, cheap wine and lite beers.

and bad chicken entrees.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Forgive me for drawing a stereotypical conclusion, but among the lesbian community there seems to be a particularly prickly wing of Libertarian/Authoritarian-type people who take labels and "lesbian-purity" very seriously. Stella (and others) have explained some of this, for example, citing women-only venues where abuse-survivors feel safer; even so, I know that when LGBT-groups work together there's sometimes a friction between the Ls and the Gs about, erm... management styles? Like, there's gays that remind me of nothing so much as little old ladies, and lesbians that remind me of crotchety old men.

I'm trying not to be too judgemental, but still making a valid observation. Am I close?

 

[Belegon]

I have had discussions with bisexual women who have been victimized (my word) by the whole "what if she finds a man" attitude. I would go as far as calling some of the things that I have been exposed to through their eyes traumatic and most definitely discriminatory.

I mean seriously, what a question! Yeah, and? What if she finds a different woman? How is that different?

Oddly enough, I think there is a parallel with straight men. I've known many guys who had no fear (or at least no increased fear) of their girl finding another male partner but who were more than a little freaked at the idea of their woman finding a female partner.

Honestly, the only thing I can attribute it to is a fear of not being able to compete with the opposite gender. Different approaches, different physical tools, blah, blah, blah.

First: If you are thinking about "losing someone", you are thinking of them as property and that is a large part of your problem.

Second: You aren't going to lose them long term to "equipment" issues. It will be about the person, and gender is actually irrelevant.

 

[Madmax77_1977]

1. A woman can call herself anything she wants to. If she is into women primarily but likes the occasional guy, that's her business, and if she wants to call herself lesbian, sapphic, dyke or anything else it's fine by me. BUT, I'd like to know her true feelings if she were my lover. I don't want to be making a commitment to some chick who later down the line is gonna jump ship on me for a guy.

I know this is a bit off topic, but does that mean that you would mind more if your lover cheated on you with a guy instead of another woman?
I noticed a similar (except the other way around) attitude in many of my friends in that they'd mind their gf cheating on them with another guy a lot more than if they cheated on them with a woman. I never understood that attitued myself.

On Topic: I don't care too much about labels. People should label themselves whatever they think fits them best.

 

[The_Fool]

I have had discussions with bisexual women who have been victimized (my word) by the whole "what if she finds a man" attitude. I would go as far as calling some of the things that I have been exposed to through their eyes traumatic and most definitely discriminatory.

I mean seriously, what a question! Yeah, and? What if she finds a different woman? How is that different?

Oddly enough, I think there is a parallel with straight men. I've known many guys who had no fear (or at least no increased fear) of their girl finding another male partner but who were more than a little freaked at the idea of their woman finding a female partner.

Honestly, the only thing I can attribute it to is a fear of not being able to compete with the opposite gender. Different approaches, different physical tools, blah, blah, blah.

First: If you are thinking about "losing someone", you are thinking of them as property and that is a large part of your problem.

Second: You aren't going to lose them long term to "equipment" issues. It will be about the person, and gender is actually irrelevant.

I could claim to have lost you and use that as an excuse to break out a bottle of the good stuff to mourn the loss. But if I break out the good stuff, then I wouldn't lose you would I? As a drinking partner that is...


There was something I said to Tatelou so many years ago. Basically it went something like this:

"You aren't heterosexual, bisexual or homosexual. You are sexual...and sexy. And I like you that way."

 

[Stella_Omega]

EVEN as a bisexual woman it's true;

if I committed myself to another woman and found out that she'd cheated on me with a man-- that would more likely be a deal breaker than if she cheated on me with another woman.

Since my relationships are open, tricking is not the same thing as "cheating." But still. Whatever our parameters are.

And one very big important reason, my dear male friends and I know none of you would be like this-- men are far more likely to disrespect me, if they are fucking my girlfriend.

Huckleman, yes. Women and men tend to have rather different management styles. Lesbians and gay men often clash when they work together.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]And one very big important reason, my dear male friends and I know none of you would be like this-- men are far more likely to disrespect me, if they are fucking my girlfriend. [...]

Yes, I'll cop to that on behalf of my gender. I have quite a few bi-girl friends, and guys do not usually handle themselves well in real-world situations. They (er, we) tend to go right to the threesome in our heads, as if "bi" means "I'll fuck anything". Women, even het women, seem to have an easier grasp of bisexual attractions. Men are either hard or flaccid, and anything that interferes with that or produces something in-between just doesn't compute very easily.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well not only that, but you've read plenty of the trolls in LW, right?

Who scream slavering filth about any male character who doesn't mind his wife having sex with someone else?

They do it to dykes, too.

There just aren't enough hollowpoints in the box to take care of all of them.

Yanno?

 

[xssve]

So, litizens, my questions are:

1) Can a woman who primarily is interested in dating and having sex with women call herself a Lesbian if she has any sexual interest in men?
and
2) Can a man who prefers sex and dating with women dabble with men sexually, the same way a woman who prefers men can dabble with women?
and finally
3) Do people have the right to label themselves, or does behavior dictate a "box" for people to fall into?

It's all sex, as they say in Airframes.

 

[ericahope]

First: If you are thinking about "losing someone", you are thinking of them as property and that is a large part of your problem.

Second: You aren't going to lose them long term to "equipment" issues. It will be about the person, and gender is actually irrelevant.

I think those are two excellent points!

 

[ericahope]

I
So, litizens, my questions are:

1) Can a woman who primarily is interested in dating and having sex with women call herself a Lesbian if she has any sexual interest in men?
and
2) Can a man who prefers sex and dating with women dabble with men sexually, the same way a woman who prefers men can dabble with women?
and finally
3) Do people have the right to label themselves, or does behavior dictate a "box" for people to fall into?

James - I appreciate you bringing this subject up. I detest labels unless they're self-applied. Even then I don't think they're always helpful because no one fits neatly into any box. I'm not sure quite what it is, but I've seen some defensiveness on the part of some in the GLBT community about who should be allowed to fit into what category.

It sounds cliche, but I prefer to think of us all as humans who have sexual desires. Some people prefer same sex and others prefer hetero and some people go back and forth depending on the day. And this can change over time and depending on circumstances. I knew a guy who swore he was "hetero" and got talked into being in a three-some with another guy and girl and found he didn't mind the other guy touching him. So did his orientation just simply change? Or, because of the situation or the specific guy did he find it didn't bother him? Who knows, who cares? But for some reason people get really defensive when you question the conventional wisdom.

So I'd answer "yes' to the first two and "yes" to the first question in #3.

Erica

 

[CharleyH]

I'm a big Dan Savage fan; listen to his podcast and read his column regularly. In the past months he's been drawn into a specific debate: Women who call themselves Lesbian but are curious to sleep with a man.

In my world this is not a new phemonenon. It's also not any different to me than a guy who calls himself gay and wants to sleep with his fag hag. It's not different to me than a guy who calls himself straight, and picks up shemales on the weekend. In fact, it isn't even much different from the CEO of a company wanting to be sexually dominated in his/her private life.

 

[JamesSD]

In my world this is not a new phemonenon. It's also not any different to me than a guy who calls himself gay and wants to sleep with his fag hag. It's not different to me than a guy who calls himself straight, and picks up shemales on the weekend. In fact, it isn't even much different from the CEO of a company wanting to be sexually dominated in his/her private life.

Indeed, I didn't want to imply the issue was new, more that it's new to me to think about. I do feel like the straight guy who picks up shemales would be shunned a lot more than a gay man who sleeps with his fag hag.

I feel like Belegon brought up some interesting points I'm trying to reconcile myself, I suppose about the marginalization of bisexuality even amongst sex-positive, fairly open people. I suppose in the case of partners it comes from the insecurity of knowing there's no way you (or anyone) could satisfy 100% of their desires.

I think a lot of straight men are cool with their mostly straight girlfriends dallying with women (although, I've heard a number of cases where this isn't true, some quite tragic). I guess if I found out my girlfriend had been seeing another woman on the sly, my first thought would be "where did you ever find the time?" followed by "can I watch?" But I know of men in relationships whose girlfriends suggested having another girl in a threesome and they reacted negatively, so clearly there are varying opinions.

I also do think most straight girls are distrustful of dating bisexual men, or straight identified men who have had gay experiences in the past. I feel like for every woman who would be accepting or find it positive, a lot would react negatively, much more so than straight men in a similar situation.