the marks of a slave

[eastern sun]

In working with resentments, this is one of my favorite stories - told by Thich Nhat Hahn, a Buddhist monk.


I am right-handed. I do everything with my right hand. When I eat, my right hand holds the fork. When I write, my right hand holds the pen. But my right hand does not complain. It does not say to my left hand, "see here. Look at how much I am doing." And my left hand does not say to my right hand, "how come you do everything? you never let me do anything!" No, instead my right hand and my left hand work together to get the job done. One time, when I was hammering a nail into the wall, I was not very skillful and I hit the thumb on my left hand with the hammer. Immediately, my right hand dropped the hammer and went to comfort the left hand. And my left hand did not pick up the hammer and hit my right hand in revenge. No, instead my left hand was very grateful for the care that my right hand offered.


I love this image. The idea that we are part of one body, and coordinating our efforts toward a shared goal. I don't know if my husband sees our relationship this way. This is one of my own internal tools.

 

[Homburg]

In working with resentments, this is one of my favorite stories - told by Thich Nhat Hahn, a Buddhist monk.


I am right-handed. I do everything with my right hand. When I eat, my right hand holds the fork. When I write, my right hand holds the pen. But my right hand does not complain. It does not say to my left hand, "see here. Look at how much I am doing." And my left hand does not say to my right hand, "how come you do everything? you never let me do anything!" No, instead my right hand and my left hand work together to get the job done. One time, when I was hammering a nail into the wall, I was not very skillful and I hit the thumb on my left hand with the hammer. Immediately, my right hand dropped the hammer and went to comfort the left hand. And my left hand did not pick up the hammer and hit my right hand in revenge. No, instead my left hand was very grateful for the care that my right hand offered.


I love this image. The idea that we are part of one body, and coordinating our efforts toward a shared goal. I don't know if my husband sees our relationship this way. This is one of my own internal tools.

Awesome. Wow, that is an excellent anecdote. Good find!

 

[Adakgirl]

Now that I have been a slave for some time, I feel a little out of touch with my female friends. They gossip and bitch about their partners, have rows with them, commiserate with each other about how selfish and petty men are, how it's like having an extra child, yadda yadda yadda. I tend to go quiet during these conversations but sometimes they'll try and pull me into the debate, encourage me to bitch about my Master and join the 'all men are bastards' club. It goes beyond affectionate banter with most women I know too. It's heartfelt and venomous.

Even before I discovered my true submissive heart, I felt out of touch with my friends when they would do this. I have never liked it and could not relate to what good it did them to go over the same complaints again and again. Resolve it with your partner or resolve it within yourselves I would tell them. But they seemed to like it.

We go on a girls- only camping trip every year. The 1st year they immediately started harping even as they unpacked their gear. It made me uncomfortable and I felt the fun, happy mood I was enjoying at the time being sucked right out of me.

So I stopped everything and called them around to the picnic table. I told them how their negativity was affecting me and the whole atmosphere we were in. That "girls-only" camping trip was not a free ticket to bitch and complain and put down their partners. That I was turning around and leaving if I they were going to subject me it, these trips were to relax, have fun, breath deep and not get everybody all depressed.

They looked at each other and said they didn't even realize they had been doing it. I don't think they did until I pointed it out to them. So I took a vote and we set one rule for the trip, no relationship bitching, that means any relationship be it your parents, kids, partners, boss,. They have followed that rule for 8 years now and I am soooo glad they have. So it's not necessarily because you have been a slave that you feel this way Velvet.

Other times, when he was cold or insensitive or angry or mean, I had to find it in myself. It's there when I look for it. And I think we all have it. It's possible to love yourself, even if no one else is at the moment. And not in that egotistical pumped up way. In a courageous, comforting way that recognizes that human beings around the world are miserable just like you.

This is came at a perfect time for me easternsun. I thank you, it's exactly what I needed to read right now.

 

[kittenartist]

s'ok we all ramble.

Immediate reciporication was a big part of how i dealt with love too, but for a few i have met; the knowledge that the reciporocation is expected of them is itself a barrier to actually appreciating the feelings.

"i love you" becomes a snare rather than a gift or affirmation.

on the other hand, from past breakups, one of the most painful things i have had to endure is to hear someone respond with "i know.." which was something i heard at least once at then end of most of my relationships.... and for one dead relationship it was my own response.

In anycase; we had this problem of the expectation being a block early on in my relationship with my wife... on several occasions i explained to her that when i told her "i love you" it was only that, and that i didn't really expect anything back, but please please don't say "i know".

She never really got it until i held her down on one night, looked her in the eyes and covered her mouth with my hand.

"I love you," i told her, and finally those words meant for her what they are supposed to. She cried.

these days my most common reaction to hearing "i love you," is "Yay!" or occasionally, "thank you."

Uh-oh. I have been known to say "I know" to an "I love you".

But thats the thing. I hear "I love you" and instinct says snap back an "I love you too". Because, odds are, I do love the person. I love most people for all that I come off as antisocial and uncaring. But that snap back response seems to take away from just accepting the "I love you" for what it is...

 

[LifelongCyn]

I understand the pressure to reciprocate an I love you. The first few times my PYL said it to me, I got upset because I didn't want the relationship to go in that direction and I felt he was trying to manipulate me. It took a while for me to understand that it was a simple statement of his feelings for me, not emotional extortion. It took even longer for me to accept that I loved him, too.

I'm curious why "I know" is so painful to hear? Is it because it really means "I don't" to you? I'm not sure I've ever said it in response to I-L-Y, but I have said it to other things that he has expressed that I didn't necessarily agree with but needed to acknowledge. "Yay" and "Thank you" are certainly appropriate responses, but an "I know" could be a statement of simple understanding and appreciation, too.

 

[eastern sun]

I have been thinking about this post a lot. Putting myself out there without expecting anything back is a big part of who I am. Comes fairly naturally.

But I was wondering about the reverse. About hearing the "I love you" without feeling the need to respond. That obligation to return the love... or dreams, desires, etc. To accept the offering for what it is and not as a demand for reciprocation.

I think tendency to give back the love, dreams, magic that is life is what gets me in trouble. Maybe sometimes that "I love you" is just all that it is, all that it needs to me...

I am rambling.

I have a play partner who I love. I see him maybe five or six times a year. He is elegant where my husband is coarse. He has a huge cock and an even bigger ego. And I just love what he does to me, and how I feel in his hands.

So I tell him, when we're done, "I love you," because I do.

I remember the first time I said it. Thinking he needed to reciprocate, he mumbled something along the lines of "me too." And I laughed. Because it was so true. He does love himself as much as I do. I'm not sure he knew exactly why I laughed, but he never felt obligated to reciprocate again.

He loves the fact that I say the good things that I feel. He comments on how much he enjoys my "warmth." And often seeks me out when he wants to feel someone love him. And I know how much he enjoys my company (and, dare I say, "loves" me too) in part because I offer myself without asking for anything in return.

 

[eastern sun]

Reading your post it seems simple.

it never was... i think i was too much an emotional pretzel for such a straight concept to have worked at the time. You have to really know what you want to be so liberated.... or maybe in the expression lies the exploration?

i remember trying not to overly explore desires, and limiting expectation. the idea at the time was to be the pliant toy, rather than the demanding high maintenance pet. ulimately i was much more the latter.

i think at best i only ever half expressed myself, with the wan hope that my Domme might pick up on the "clue," add a dash of originality, and suprise me with something that we both liked, all the while limiting my own exposure to the risk of rejection.

How exhausting that must have been. Not to mention unproductive.

When I first began expressing my submissive desires, I desperately wanted my husband to "take control" and give me what I was craving without me having to take responsibility for it. I wasn't all too comfortable with what I was wanting - so I wanted "it" to be taken from me. With some undue force when at all possible.

He enjoyed that for about two or three months and then got fed up.

He was feeling railroaded into serving my desires without getting much in return. And I was exhibiting the old "I can only submit to you if you dominate me" thinking.

Ultimately I had to take responsibility for my own submission. And my desire to do so.

Have you ever watched two slaves go out to lunch? Each one habitually submitting to the "other." It's actually very funny.

And it doesn't take that long to realize someone's got to take the lead.

My point is - submission is ultimately an action - freely given and freely taken back. It does not depend on the actions of the "other."

And, I think the same is true of love.

 

[eastern sun]

My husband has a way of saying "I know" when I tell him "I love you" that makes me crack up and love him even more.

 

[eastern sun]

There's a place in the masochist's life for unreciprocated love. There is almost nothing that cuts so deeply.

I have nursed that pain for years.

It's important, though, to see it in perspective. See what you're gaining from it. And why you keep coming back.

 

[Netzach]

It's interesting that people usually assume that being "mean" is a more guarded state than being "nice." It ain't necessarily so.

(I'm kind of curious about what you mean by "totally weird and visceral and stripped - more than anything I've got." And why it's a weakness.)

I mean the difference between "I love you so much I want to give myself to you."

And "I love you so much I want to chain you to the door, write my name on you and bite you till you bleed and not let you leave."

Doing mean things is easy. Telling appropriately compartmentalized people the things I am going to do - easy.

Dealing with these desires in the context of romantic relationships, not easy.

The more socially acceptable? In your opinion?

Not that I'm a social joiner, but it does tend to fuck with your head a bit when you're nowhere to be referenced except criminal logs.

 

[kittenartist]

There's a place in the masochist's life for unreciprocated love. There is almost nothing that cuts so deeply.

I have nursed that pain for years.

It's important, though, to see it in perspective. See what you're gaining from it. And why you keep coming back.

Oh my goodness yes. I think a lot of people forget that a masochist can enjoy holding on to that emotional pain as much as physical. I definitely do that, a lot. Makes me feel alive.

 

[rida]

Re: "I love you" and the many replies ...

With Hubby, "me too" is a playful way to asnwer the "I love you" statement.

It took him a while to accept that he did not need to reciprocate the statement each time. In the early stage of our relationship he even told me that I was saying it too often and turning it into a meaningless statement.
He does not think that anymore, now we even have a running joke between each other:
"May I ask you something?"
"Yes, I love you. What?"

"I know" can have many meaning: it can mean "I'm ok with it", "I truly can feel it", "Thank you", "it is unfortunate that you feel so" and so on.
Usually when Hubby and I say it, it means that we can truly feel the other person love and are thankful for it.

(When I first said it to the Sadist, in the middle of a scene, he said "I know it" and it meant simply that he understood and was ok with it. When I said it again, not in the middle of an emotional play, his reaction was very cute: he did a double take: "What did you say?" "Good night, Sir" "If it makes you more obedient" LOL)

I have a play partner who I love. I see him maybe five or six times a year.
*snip*
I offer myself without asking for anything in return.

I'm trying to work my way there. And balance my submission to Hubby. Sometimes it just gets all mumbled up in my mind.

When I first began expressing my submissive desires, I desperately wanted my husband to "take control" and give me what I was craving without me having to take responsibility for it. I wasn't all too comfortable with what I was wanting - so I wanted "it" to be taken from me. With some undue force when at all possible.

*snip*

My point is - submission is ultimately an action - freely given and freely taken back. It does not depend on the actions of the "other."

And, I think the same is true of love.

Perhaps that is the problem: my submission to Hubby is not something to balance. It is something to accept.

 

[intothewoods]

Mister Man told me about a fantasy he has involving what he refers to as "the slave girl thing." I always ask questions. How long do you want this slave girl? What does she do? Because he says "slave" and I don't know what that means exactly.

So he mentioned some things that made me wince. Not pain. Bodily fluids. My fav! Anyway. So he says, see, I can't do that with you. You're going to be my wife.

This is just part of a dialogue we've been having. Anyway. So I keep thinking, I should get myself to suck it up and go there, and let him know he can go there too. Or is it better or okay to compartmentalize that with other people? I don't know. We're still having the dialogue, as I say.

Honestly, sometimes I feel like we could spend our entire lives just talking about sex. But then we forget, and focus on the house, or kids, or food or health, or money or any other of the eight million things to think about in the world. And somehow when we get back to talking about sex, it's like, wow, there is a lot to talk about here!

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

When I first began expressing my submissive desires, I desperately wanted my husband to "take control" and give me what I was craving without me having to take responsibility for it. I wasn't all too comfortable with what I was wanting - so I wanted "it" to be taken from me. With some undue force when at all possible.

He enjoyed that for about two or three months and then got fed up.

He was feeling railroaded into serving my desires without getting much in return. And I was exhibiting the old "I can only submit to you if you dominate me" thinking.

Ultimately I had to take responsibility for my own submission. And my desire to do so.

Have you ever watched two slaves go out to lunch? Each one habitually submitting to the "other." It's actually very funny.

And it doesn't take that long to realize someone's got to take the lead.

My point is - submission is ultimately an action - freely given and freely taken back. It does not depend on the actions of the "other."

And, I think the same is true of love.

This one has hit home and given me much food for thought. Thanks eastern sun.

 

[LifelongCyn]

When I first began expressing my submissive desires, I desperately wanted my husband to "take control" and give me what I was craving without me having to take responsibility for it. I wasn't all too comfortable with what I was wanting - so I wanted "it" to be taken from me. With some undue force when at all possible.

He enjoyed that for about two or three months and then got fed up.

He was feeling railroaded into serving my desires without getting much in return. And I was exhibiting the old "I can only submit to you if you dominate me" thinking.

Ultimately I had to take responsibility for my own submission. And my desire to do so.

Have you ever watched two slaves go out to lunch? Each one habitually submitting to the "other." It's actually very funny.

And it doesn't take that long to realize someone's got to take the lead.

My point is - submission is ultimately an action - freely given and freely taken back. It does not depend on the actions of the "other."

And, I think the same is true of love.

This resonates with me as well. I'm still finding my way in this lifestyle, figuring out what submission means to me, and to complicate things my relationship has been primarily online. I've been worrying a lot about being too much focused on what I need and being a burden to my PYL. At the same time, I feel like I need much more structure than I'm getting at the moment, but when he asks what I want, I'm at a loss.

I know I need to take responsibility for myself, that I don't want him to micromanage or make my submission dependent on his asking something of me, but I don't know how to do that - give my submission without expecting something from him in return that "makes" me feel submissive.

 

[eastern sun]

I know I need to take responsibility for myself, that I don't want him to micromanage or make my submission dependent on his asking something of me, but I don't know how to do that - give my submission without expecting something from him in return that "makes" me feel submissive.

He has probably expressed his desires many, many times. You probably already know what he wants. Just allow yourself to give it to him.

And then keep listening.

 

[eastern sun]

Sometimes, when we put our own desires first, we don't give the other something that they want, even though we know it will make them happy.

Sometimes, when we put our own desires first, we give the other something that they don't want, even though we know it will make them unhappy.

 

[eastern sun]

I mean the difference between "I love you so much I want to give myself to you."

And "I love you so much I want to chain you to the door, write my name on you and bite you till you bleed and not let you leave."

Doing mean things is easy. Telling appropriately compartmentalized people the things I am going to do - easy.

Dealing with these desires in the context of romantic relationships, not easy.

The more socially acceptable? In your opinion?

Not that I'm a social joiner, but it does tend to fuck with your head a bit when you're nowhere to be referenced except criminal logs.

I get what you're saying, Netzach.

Even though your expression of love sounds pretty damn good to me.

 

[Adakgirl]

There's a place in the masochist's life for unreciprocated love. There is almost nothing that cuts so deeply.

I have nursed that pain for years.

It's important, though, to see it in perspective. See what you're gaining from it. And why you keep coming back.

I am afraid you have confused me eastern sun. Are you saying that your Master does not love you and never has? I am not there, I am not living your life as his slave, but from what I have read about him in this thread, I do not believe your love is unreciprocated.
That of course is only my opinion. Is that what you meant?

 

[Netzach]

So he mentioned some things that made me wince. Not pain. Bodily fluids. My fav! Anyway. So he says, see, I can't do that with you. You're going to be my wife.

Alert, danger.

I definitely *have trouble* doing or thinking about doing things with M because being my husband the risk is much much higher should things suck ass. That's MY problem to work on. My meshuggah thing.

But "I can't because you are in this compartment" is a red flag for me, sorry. Meh, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. There's a fine line and somehow to me "I can't because you're going to be my wife" puts it on YOU.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Alert, danger.

I definitely *have trouble* doing or thinking about doing things with M because being my husband the risk is much much higher should things suck ass. That's MY problem to work on. My meshuggah thing.

But "I can't because you are in this compartment" is a red flag for me, sorry. Meh, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. There's a fine line and somehow to me "I can't because you're going to be my wife" puts it on YOU.

yeah, that would be a red flag for me as well. reminds me of a guy i knew way back when who loved anal sex more than anything, but would only do it with prostitutes because as he put it, "i would never do that with my wife!" people who compartmentalize erotic activities like that...and especially those who find it to be a completely natural thing to restrict themselves based on how much they care for you...tend to make me nervous.

 

[rida]

Mister Man told me about a fantasy he has involving what he refers to as "the slave girl thing." I always ask questions. How long do you want this slave girl? What does she do? Because he says "slave" and I don't know what that means exactly.

So he mentioned some things that made me wince. Not pain. Bodily fluids. My fav! Anyway. So he says, see, I can't do that with you. You're going to be my wife.

This is just part of a dialogue we've been having. Anyway. So I keep thinking, I should get myself to suck it up and go there, and let him know he can go there too. Or is it better or okay to compartmentalize that with other people? I don't know. We're still having the dialogue, as I say.

Honestly, sometimes I feel like we could spend our entire lives just talking about sex. But then we forget, and focus on the house, or kids, or food or health, or money or any other of the eight million things to think about in the world. And somehow when we get back to talking about sex, it's like, wow, there is a lot to talk about here!

It's interesting that I find myself in a opposite situation.
Hubby does not seem to have any problem with wanting to do things to me. Actually, if any, he feels freer because I am his wife.

On the other hand, I am realizing that because he IS my husband, I expect from him more than to be my PYL and to love me. I do not expect him to cater to every whim of mine, but I DO EXPECT him to pay better attention to how I feel, what I want and what I need.

Meh, I'm not a slave, I should not be posting here ...

 

[myinnerslut]

Meh, I'm not a slave, I should not be posting here ...

feh!

you have beautiful insights. dont sell yourself short.

 

[rida]

feh!

you have beautiful insights. dont sell yourself short.

Thank you



I needed that ...... now I'm all teary ...

 

[intothewoods]

yeah, that would be a red flag for me as well. reminds me of a guy i knew way back when who loved anal sex more than anything, but would only do it with prostitutes because as he put it, "i would never do that with my wife!" people who compartmentalize erotic activities like that...and especially those who find it to be a completely natural thing to restrict themselves based on how much they care for you...tend to make me nervous.

Alert, danger.

I definitely *have trouble* doing or thinking about doing things with M because being my husband the risk is much much higher should things suck ass. That's MY problem to work on. My meshuggah thing.

But "I can't because you are in this compartment" is a red flag for me, sorry. Meh, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say. There's a fine line and somehow to me "I can't because you're going to be my wife" puts it on YOU.

I'm sorry, I was being really flip. He's NOT like your example, osg. He's aware of it. It's a little more complicated than say, I want this, but he won't do it because I'm supposed to be on a pedestal. It's more like, here's this extreme fantasy I have that I want once in a while. Or maybe even just once. And do you even want it? Do I want to do that with you?

And the truth is neither of us are sure. We're having a big dialogue about all this right now, and it's more than the "slave girl" thing.

I think we're both kind of going, shit, we met as fuck/play buddies off of freaking collar me, and now we're going to get married and make babies. Weird! I mean, it's great and awesome, but the earth is kind of shifting and we're just talking about it a lot.