Why are they so many American Jews here?

[JMohegan]

It's interesting to read JM's observations about southerners and then objections and reactions from southerners, after having a similar conversation in the thread in Talk about Christians, Jews, atheists and agnostics. I have a hard time not taking the discussion personally when it's about my peeps, but it gives me some perspective to read the different points of view here. I can't speak for southerners, but it seems to me that beyond not wanting to be reduced to a stereotype, everyone wants to be seen in context. And so it's just plain difficult to read isolated observations about a group to which you belong, but that doesn't make the observations invalid.

Having been out of the country quite a few times in the past 8 years, I understand the frustration of geographic stereotypes that don't uniformly apply. Especially after the '04 election, when "well, Americans just didn't know..." no longer became even a remotely valid defense, any conversation beyond the most superficial would uncover a deep and really angry anti-American sentiment.

"There are more than 300 million Americans, only slightly more than half voted for the guy, and I wasn't one of them" was met with understanding. But the anger and anti-American sentiment didn't go away, and the uncomfortable questions and observations didn't stop. This was very painful and intensely frustrating for me, but I absolutely understood why the rest of the world was pissed. And I actually appreciated the opportunity to clear up misconceptions, providing a perspective on parts of the country that the non-US folks couldn't get from TV.

Walking around Rome with an Obama baseball cap on last summer, I approached a young Italian guy with a big grin on his face. He stepped in front me, gripped me by the shoulders, glanced up at my cap, and proclaimed: "America will be America again!" I swear to you, ITW, I almost cried.

Thinking about all of this, I realize that what made the earlier experiences painful and frustrating for me was *not* the fact that non-US folks were reacting to Iraq, Guantanamo, and so on. The reason it was upsetting was because *I* was pissed off about the stuff Bush had done.

 

[WriterDom]

Key word. Don't forget the single issue gun rights voters. A helluva lot of southerners are very pro-guns, and the democrats were very anti-gun for a very long time. Here a little less than ten years ago the dem started to back off that issue. Mark Warner successfully ran for governor in VA and a good part of his support was a group called "Sportsmen for Warner". Their signs had a fishing pole on the bottom and a rifle on top. The message was unmistakable.

Gun control is a loser issue for the democrats. Their core may want it, but they'll be just fine without so long as they make progress elsewhere. A whole helluva lot of swing voters will vote the other way on anti-gun candidates though. When I noticed the dems cooling it on that issues I figured we might see a slow swing in the south.

Well, when you have Hillary talking about her gun shooting days with Grandpa you know it's an issue past it's time. Obama has people worried but you have to remember he was in Chicago. That's like Baghdad almost. It sounds a little racist but inner city kids don't need to be packing guns. Not with a history of shooting people. But if I had to live in the city would I be locked and loaded? You betcha. But that's the rub. Where you really need a gun they want to take them away.

 

[Keroin]

In my travels through the US, here are some observations (from a Canuck POV):

Friendliest people - Louisiana. Hands down.
Most racism witnessed - Florida. Not just white vs black, everyone vs everyone.
But I've never heard the "N" word used so often in polite
company as I did in Florida.
Weirdest - Utah. Well, around Salt Lake City, to be specific. Very Stepford Wives
vibe going on there.

Oh! Airport just called, the plane is finally here, gotta...fly. LOL

More later.

 

[JMohegan]

In another thread somewhere (don't remember which off the top of my head, might've even been this one; we're having lots of religious and cultural discussions around here this week), someone said that the first thing they thought of about being Jewish was the food.

Ok, so that works for me, too. I'm a damn good cook, when I'm in the mood, but it's all country food and lots and lots of dessert. I don't know how to fix that fancy stuff.

Southern feasts emphasize the dessert. The rest is just something you eat beforehand.

It means when a woman's car breaks the belt that runs the water pump and overheats out on some back country road, she doesn't panic and grab her cell phone (because she doesn't have service there, anyway) and call the nearest male. It means she fishes the old pair of panty hose out of the backseat and rigs up something herself that'll get her home because God only knows when someone might actually come along to help out there on that old back road. And if the women are that capable, then the men have to be, too. Probably even more so to get us to respect them. (But I will leave my pet rant about the pussyfication of the American male for another time.)

It means people don't freak out when there's a gun around or whatever. The reaction is usually more like, "Oh, cool, where'd you get that one? How does it shoot?"

It means that full-sized American-made extended cab pickup trucks with mud tires and lift kits and loud mufflers and huge speakers blaring country music or hip-hop music (either one, depends on what kind of mood the driver's in) and a gun rack in the back and a case of beer in the toolbox aren't just the stuff of some Yankee's bad jokes. That truck is some hard-working rural boy's pride and joy and a really fun way to spend a Saturday night, riding up and down dirt roads and through mudholes. Getting stuck is the fun part.

It means there is a certain way that one is expected to treat one's guests, and if one does not do so, one is ostracized and rightfully so.

It means there's this strange honor code that seems to be left over from medieval times and adapted to the modern day.

It means lots of things, and I could go on and on, but I think I've already talked way too much.

No, no, this is great! Thank you for writing it all out.

The car thing has me literally laughing out loud. Where I live, both the men and the women would pull out that cell.

I can understand why guns don't freak people out, in a place where they're used on dinner instead of innocent people.

I'd say that holds true for any rural area, Bible Belt or no. A more urban environment is going to expose people to more influences outside of their own little cultural sphere, so those people will tend to be a little less restrictive in their views.

It's human nature to fear (or hate) what we don't understand. If you've never been exposed to something, it tends to be a knee-jerk reaction.

I mean, Atlanta is in the Deep South, but you can get away with things there you couldn't get away with in other, more insular places in the Deep South. Folks blame on the "Bible Belt" culture, but I honestly believe that's a more rural vs. urban thing.

This makes a lot of sense.

 

[Netzach]

I grew up in a beautiful spot in NJ.

I swear, Saturday Night Live has a lot to answer for.

My mom grew up in Baton Rouge and loves New Jersey. So there.

I'm going to go Cry, Beloved State.

To be fair, I joined some friends for dinner in Ringwood and was blown away by how nice it is. I can totally see preferring to live like that if I had the money for a murphy bed and a closet in Manhattan.

 

[Netzach]

Yes. But I don't think it's necessarily that all or even most of us ascribe to the fundie culture. I just think that it's a case of rich people manipulating poor people, particularly whites, to vote against their best interests by playing on their fears. If you don't have anything else, it's easy to let religious fear-mongering be your guide.

I grew up in the Southern Baptist church. I know how this works. But I'm a shining example that the propaganda doesn't always stick.



In another thread somewhere (don't remember which off the top of my head, might've even been this one; we're having lots of religious and cultural discussions around here this week), someone said that the first thing they thought of about being Jewish was the food.

Ok, so that works for me, too. I'm a damn good cook, when I'm in the mood, but it's all country food and lots and lots of dessert. I don't know how to fix that fancy stuff.

Southern feasts emphasize the dessert. The rest is just something you eat beforehand.

It means when a woman's car breaks the belt that runs the water pump and overheats out on some back country road, she doesn't panic and grab her cell phone (because she doesn't have service there, anyway) and call the nearest male. It means she fishes the old pair of panty hose out of the backseat and rigs up something herself that'll get her home because God only knows when someone might actually come along to help out there on that old back road. And if the women are that capable, then the men have to be, too. Probably even more so to get us to respect them. (But I will leave my pet rant about the pussyfication of the American male for another time.)

It means people don't freak out when there's a gun around or whatever. The reaction is usually more like, "Oh, cool, where'd you get that one? How does it shoot?"

It means that full-sized American-made extended cab pickup trucks with mud tires and lift kits and loud mufflers and huge speakers blaring country music or hip-hop music (either one, depends on what kind of mood the driver's in) and a gun rack in the back and a case of beer in the toolbox aren't just the stuff of some Yankee's bad jokes. That truck is some hard-working rural boy's pride and joy and a really fun way to spend a Saturday night, riding up and down dirt roads and through mudholes. Getting stuck is the fun part.

It means there is a certain way that one is expected to treat one's guests, and if one does not do so, one is ostracized and rightfully so.

It means there's this strange honor code that seems to be left over from medieval times and adapted to the modern day.

It means lots of things, and I could go on and on, but I think I've already talked way too much.



I'd say that holds true for any rural area, Bible Belt or no. A more urban environment is going to expose people to more influences outside of their own little cultural sphere, so those people will tend to be a little less restrictive in their views.

It's human nature to fear (or hate) what we don't understand. If you've never been exposed to something, it tends to be a knee-jerk reaction.

I mean, Atlanta is in the Deep South, but you can get away with things there you couldn't get away with in other, more insular places in the Deep South. Folks blame on the "Bible Belt" culture, but I honestly believe that's a more rural vs. urban thing.

I'm beginning to think there are literally genetic dispositions to getting along with people and being excited about new stuff completely unlike your own stuff, and wanting to kill/avoid anything not like you. And the tension between that most people experience. This is why fascism will have resistors no matter how totalitarian, this is why open-minded genius periodically springs out of the most rigidly conforming and limited of circumstances.

And this is why to the extent that I've left the only place assumed to be cosmopolitan enough for a lot of people, I've found more interesting people, more interesting thought, more vital scene, and more surprising, stereotype-busting weirdness in the Lakes states than I did at home. I've learned to have my little knee jerk and then remember that America is bound to pleasantly surprise you if you let it.

I mean, I grew up in a really limited, racist, insular family. I don't think it's just "wow I don't want to be like them" that I don't feel this way about things, I really do think there's some generally social person liking novophile aspect to my makeup that's like different/interesting/difficult = good, happy, worthwhile. It's easier for some of us and harder for others. For some people it's a million times more easy than it is for me - they're the kinds of people that everyone's talking to in about five seconds of coming in a room.

It's not like these things can't be refined and cultivated - and it's not like people's attitudes never change either - but the process for that, how fast/how slow I think is ingrained in personality quite a bit.

And this has nothing to do with geography. The people I know who still live in the same two block radius of the Bronx and think that I live in Lake Woebegone and there's something wrong with you if you even consider the land between NYC and LA, are the same thing.

I mean the first time I heard Ornette Coleman, and this is prior to any serious kind of this is "good elite art stuff" - I remember literally dropping what I was doing to face the radio because it was chaotic and unlike any sound I'd ever heard.

Other people are turned off there at square one. M is completely. It takes him a lot more time.

 

[Netzach]

People from NY talk a lot of smack about NJ but I don't know anyone who actually hates it. Some of my favorite things are in NJ! WFMU comes from NJ, Maxwelle's in Hoboken has great bands, lots of good produce comes from NJ, some of my favorite people live in NJ, etc, etc.

It's just a bitch to drive through and half of it stinks

WFMU and Maxwells are (were I fear?) actually some of the best reasons to get up in the AM if you live in the city.

 

[JMohegan]

The south was completely blue for most of my life. In 1974, Republicans held a total of only 29 legislative seats out of 236 in Georgia. Our current governor now is the first republican governor since reconstruction. Same goes for the Lt governor who was just elected. Both houses are now republican. Both senators.

I'll tell you why democrats have a hard time in the south but you probably already know. And don't come barking up my tree. I'm not a social conservative. I'm just explaining here. If you want to call them ignorant, than go ahead. Won't hurt my feelings. But many believe that abortion is murder. No different than taking a truck load of breathing babies and throwing them off a cliff. And outside of urban areas they are against homosexual marriage overwhelmingly. Not 60/40 against, but 90/10 or 80/20. So all republicans have to do is paint democrats as being for Adam and Steve and abortion. And if the democrat has any voting record that hints of support for either, it's over. The repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," is really going to have a high political price. Is it fair? Probably not, but little of politics is based on fairness.

Now democrats have been successful by running what I call Jesus and gun democrats. I didn't look, but the few that voted against the Obama stimulus are probably worried about keeping their jobs in 2010.

And I think the attitude about the military is warmer in the South. More enlist from the south than any other region and if you want to go to military school you have other options than the national ones. Democrats tend to play the military down. I think Obama had one short paragraph in his speech about the military and I haven't seen him at a military base other than playing basketball in Iraq.

Personally I think gays should have civil unions. Gays in Military perhaps, but with strict guidelines on behavior. I lived in a room the size I'm in now with 23 other guys. I don't want guys butt fucking on the ship. If they want to get to port and get a room, that's their business. That can be a long 128 days though.

I'm becoming more and more against abortion. It's just my personal belief. But I do want forced contraception from a girl's first period until the age of 21 or so. Maybe after 18 if she is married. But this babies having babies shit needs to stop.

I hear everything that you're saying, WD. These are political perspectives, but cultural as well.

For the record, I would not call an abortion opponent "ignorant." I understand that ethical perspective, even if I disagree.

Anti-gay? Now we're talking about ignorance, big time.

My opinion on guns is that I completely understand the hunting cultural appreciation thing, but I deeply resent the refusal of rural voters to consider the perspective of people living in places with human-on-human gun violence, like Chicago or NY or LA. Taking away your hunting rifle is not the point, and has never been the point. I just don't think that's difficult to see. Nevertheless, I agree with your political assessment of this as a losing issue.

With regard to southern elections, I was addressing national elections (hardly blue over the course of your life, Carter '76 and some Clinton notwithstanding). As for your local elections, there's a big north/south division within each party, as you say. No "Jesus and gun" Democrat runs up north. And in New England, "Republican" means those two stimulus-supporting Senators from Maine.

 

[Rad'l]

Read this thread straight through - I'm an x-yankee, living in Florida for almost 50 years now - and I've seen some amazing changes in attitudes. But what really drew my attention was the problem that y'all are having trying to lable the states. A number of years ago, an editor at, Ibelieve, the Washington Post - Joel Gareau - wrote a book titled "The Nine Nations of North America". Gareau had noticed the regional slants that colored the articles coming in and formed the opinion that there were not states or provinces but nine cultural nations. Read the book; it is quite enlightening and entertaining.

 

[Netzach]

Waffles? Waffles? That's your answer to the question about southern cultural ID?

I don't think Republican = southern. Instead, Huckabee/Palin Republican = southern, to me. There's a big, big difference. That's why I referenced the '08 primaries.

As for your comment about the influx of non-southerners, they're the reason that parts of the south aren't "southern" anymore - I agree.

Palin is not Southern anything at all. Palin is a distinctly Northern phenomenon who'd fit right in here - she could never grow without a pile of snow. I mean, she was embraced, but I don't think her politics would actually work in Mississippi - MN blue dogs admitted to kinda liking her.

For all everyone's bitching about her I'll take 20 of her over a Michelle Bachmann any day - she's more complicated than a lot of the left would like her to be.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree, Netzach, she's not southern. My reference to Palin comes from this context:

What makes a place southern? I'm interested to know what this means to southerners, from a cultural perspective.

Knowing little about the culture itself, I perceive "southern" in largely political terms. If a state is physically located in the south, and most of its counties went for Huckabee over McCain in the primary, or if an alarmingly big chunk of the citizenry thinks Palin's just superfantastic, or if white democrats & white independents voted for Obama in significantly lower percentages than those demographics voted for Obama in the country as a whole in November, that's "southern" to me. And why I don't think of Miami or Research Triangle Park or Northern VA as southern - geography notwithstanding.

 

[Netzach]

Heh, I'm pro-second from an urban perspective. While gun violence is horrible, allowing people to register weapons to give themselves a fighting chance seems reasonable - when you adopt the perspective of someone living in a very unsafe neighborhood, rather than a social reformer mindset when you're not being personally shot at.

 

[JMohegan]

Heh, I'm pro-second from an urban perspective. While gun violence is horrible, allowing people to register weapons to give themselves a fighting chance seems reasonable - when you adopt the perspective of someone living in a very unsafe neighborhood, rather than a social reformer mindset when you're not being personally shot at.

That is reasonable.

Fighting tooth & nail against 48 hour lag times, background checks, rules about the psychologically disabled - not.

 

[Netzach]

Well, when you have Hillary talking about her gun shooting days with Grandpa you know it's an issue past it's time. Obama has people worried but you have to remember he was in Chicago. That's like Baghdad almost. It sounds a little racist but inner city kids don't need to be packing guns. Not with a history of shooting people. But if I had to live in the city would I be locked and loaded? You betcha. But that's the rub. Where you really need a gun they want to take them away.

Wait a sec, your safety is worth protecting with a gun but "inner city kids" who are the most likely to be killed by guns, should not have access to them via legal channels in case of real emergency, only illegally to keep killing each other?

Most crime is, was and remains white on white and black on black, asian on asian, etc. etc.

But because of a national DW Griffith insane consciousness, the assumption about what white people will be using their guns for and what inner city people of color will be using their guns for really stick in the craw of most conceal-carry advocates.

Everyone's really really excited about the second amendment but just look at how white vs. black militias have been dealt with, historically.

Until the gun lobby deals with the need for one law for everyone they're going to be assumed to be right wingnuts.

People will insist to me that legal means to carry don't lead to proliferation unless I'm talking about people of color. Then magically and suddenly - legal carry will lead to proliferation! Oh noes, holy shit!

My feeling on this is informed by the notion that every person has the best perspective on how to run their own life, protect their own property, and police their own bodies. Everyone.

That girls should be given adequate shame-free information and access to contraceptives, a range of them. Not "forced onto" them. Hope you have a good fund for the lawsuits when people drop dead of blood clots. That a person, no matter where they live and what their background, who wants a gun permit and isn't unhinged, should be assumed to want one for the same reason any "reasonable person" would.

 

[Netzach]

That is reasonable.

Fighting tooth & nail against 48 hour lag times, background checks, rules about the psychologically disabled - not.

Oh, yeah, well there's fundamentalist fervor in any subculture, but if people were more ready to sit down and craft this without trying to ban everything all the time the fringe would be more fringe.

 

[JMohegan]

Oh, yeah, well there's fundamentalist fervor in any subculture, but if people were more ready to sit down and craft this without trying to ban everything all the time the fringe would be more fringe.

I'm talking about the NRA here. As lobbies go, this one dominates the rural United States.

 

[Keroin]

Where was I?

Most pigs seen in one day - Mississippi
State I haven't seen that I'd most like to - Vermont/New York
Worst food - Idaho
Best food - California (smoothies on every corner, ah, I've found Nirvana)
Saddest State - Nevada
Best Drive - Oregon/California coast
Most over hyped state - Texas. Oh please, you're not that big.
Biggest surprise - Utah. HOW cool is Moab??? Wow. I cannot wait to go back there and hike my brains out.

Racism: it's everywhere. Worldwide.

Guns: if you're not hunting, camping where there are grizzly bears, or part of a wild west show, why do you need a gun?

Deep fried food: is wrong on every level. Tastes great but makes me feel like barfing five minutes after consuming.

 

[intothewoods]

Having been out of the country quite a few times in the past 8 years, I understand the frustration of geographic stereotypes that don't uniformly apply. Especially after the '04 election, when "well, Americans just didn't know..." no longer became even a remotely valid defense, any conversation beyond the most superficial would uncover a deep and really angry anti-American sentiment.

"There are more than 300 million Americans, only slightly more than half voted for the guy, and I wasn't one of them" was met with understanding. But the anger and anti-American sentiment didn't go away, and the uncomfortable questions and observations didn't stop. This was very painful and intensely frustrating for me, but I absolutely understood why the rest of the world was pissed. And I actually appreciated the opportunity to clear up misconceptions, providing a perspective on parts of the country that the non-US folks couldn't get from TV.

Walking around Rome with an Obama baseball cap on last summer, I approached a young Italian guy with a big grin on his face. He stepped in front me, gripped me by the shoulders, glanced up at my cap, and proclaimed: "America will be America again!" I swear to you, ITW, I almost cried.
Thinking about all of this, I realize that what made the earlier experiences painful and frustrating for me was *not* the fact that non-US folks were reacting to Iraq, Guantanamo, and so on. The reason it was upsetting was because *I* was pissed off about the stuff Bush had done.

Ooh, yes, I've also been out of the country quite a few times in the past 8 years. I primarily have said what you said, that not everyone voted for him, including myself, but yes, it can be frustrating and challenging.

The bolded part is awesome, JM.

 

[intothewoods]

I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...
I will not post a corn dog pics in my thread...

Mmmm...corn dogs....sigh. Whole wheat pasta IS delicious.

 

[Homburg]

My opinion on guns is that I completely understand the hunting cultural appreciation thing, but I deeply resent the refusal of rural voters to consider the perspective of people living in places with human-on-human gun violence, like Chicago or NY or LA. Taking away your hunting rifle is not the point, and has never been the point. I just don't think that's difficult to see. Nevertheless, I agree with your political assessment of this as a losing issue.

Eh, the problem is that the gun issue you're speaking of is essentially local. Vast swaths of this country have low gun violence numbers, and handle gun ownership just fine. At which point, treat it like a local issue and let those who are basically responsible with their guns have their guns. This is the basic viewpoint at least locally. We sympathise, honestly. Just don't hamper our rights because people up there aren't mature enough to handle theirs.

The flipside of this is ease of availability in places like Virginia contribute to gun violence in places like Detroit. People come down here to buy guns they cannot gracefully purchase up there and drive them back for black market sale there. This is why VA instituted strong purchase requirements around fifteen years ago requiring anyone purchasing to be a VA resident. Many other states around here have followed that example. Instant background checks happened here well before they were suggested at the federal level.

In short, Virginia, and other southern states, made positive impact on other areas by making localised changes. The same courtesy should be applied. What a politician from Chicago sees as a problem where he is from (and is a huge problem), is not a problem here, or where BiBunny is, or WD, etc. And the problem should be treated as such.

(At its' core, it is a lack of vision, as they see the gun part of the violence and focus on that. It is magical thinking. take the gun away and people will be nice to each other. Nope, they'll just start using knives, bricks, making zip guns, etc. Or just go to greater lengths to smuggle them in using even more unsavory characters and producing more secondary crime due to weapons trade.

Better to modify the causes of the violence than to put a band-aid on it by trying to take away one tool to express the violent urge. And the only truly solid way to modify that is on the local level. See the "Broken Windows" theory of policing as an example.)

In short, the solutions that work in urban (or, more commonly, DON'T work in urban areas) will explicitly not work in rural ones, or be pointlessly restrictive.

With regard to southern elections, I was addressing national elections (hardly blue over the course of your life, Carter '76 and some Clinton notwithstanding). As for your local elections, there's a big north/south division within each party, as you say. No "Jesus and gun" Democrat runs up north. And in New England, "Republican" means those two stimulus-supporting Senators from Maine.

All politics are local. Many of the democrats that have lost over the past 30 years have been urban, northern democrats. Carter was southern. Reagan beat him, but he was Reagan. Mondale was certainly northern (in the south's eyes) and more urban than rural. Dukakis was a Masshole, and probably never saw a tree that wasn't ringed by steel and pavement (again, in the eyes of the south). Bubba beat Bush, but he was from Arkansas, and that's pretty down home. They're almost southern. Gore was supposedly from Tennesee, but I seriously doubt that anyone would ever believe that from the way he acted. And Kerry. Well, hey, Kerry.

Obama was the first one to honestly break the mold, as common wisdom was to run a governor from the south or west/midwest, as northern urban dems didn't win. In short, the south did not have good choices to vote for on the national dem ticket. Look at the local and state tickets and things change. Those tickets much more accurately reflect what the constituency of a given area wants.

 

[00Syd]

WFMU and Maxwells are (were I fear?) actually some of the best reasons to get up in the AM if you live in the city.

Nope, WFMU is still going strong and can be listened to via the web at WFMU.org. I reccomend Fool's Paradise with Rex on Saturdays and Downtown Soulville with Fine Wine on Fridays. Dave The Sapzz on Thursdays is good, too, though less consistently so.

Maxwells, as far as I know, is still up and running and booking good bands.

 

[Netzach]

Nope, WFMU is still going strong and can be listened to via the web at WFMU.org. I reccomend Fool's Paradise with Rex on Saturdays and Downtown Soulville with Fine Wine on Fridays. Maxwells, as far as I know, is still up and running and booking good bands.

Yay.

But can you still see - whatever, TV on the Radio let's say for at least ten bucks less than in the city? That was the fun part.

 

[Netzach]

Eh, the problem is that the gun issue you're speaking of is essentially local. Vast swaths of this country have low gun violence numbers, and handle gun ownership just fine. At which point, treat it like a local issue and let those who are basically responsible with their guns have their guns. This is the basic viewpoint at least locally. We sympathise, honestly. Just don't hamper our rights because people up there aren't mature enough to handle theirs.

The flipside of this is ease of availability in places like Virginia contribute to gun violence in places like Detroit. People come down here to buy guns they cannot gracefully purchase up there and drive them back for black market sale there. This is why VA instituted strong purchase requirements around fifteen years ago requiring anyone purchasing to be a VA resident. Many other states around here have followed that example. Instant background checks happened here well before they were suggested at the federal level.

In short, Virginia, and other southern states, made positive impact on other areas by making localised changes. The same courtesy should be applied. What a politician from Chicago sees as a problem where he is from (and is a huge problem), is not a problem here, or where BiBunny is, or WD, etc. And the problem should be treated as such.

(At its' core, it is a lack of vision, as they see the gun part of the violence and focus on that. It is magical thinking. take the gun away and people will be nice to each other. Nope, they'll just start using knives, bricks, making zip guns, etc. Or just go to greater lengths to smuggle them in using even more unsavory characters and producing more secondary crime due to weapons trade.

Better to modify the causes of the violence than to put a band-aid on it by trying to take away one tool to express the violent urge. And the only truly solid way to modify that is on the local level. See the "Broken Windows" theory of policing as an example.)

This is the heart of it - I've always seen bans as futile, cosmetic, posturing, usually done by liberals on the upper west side who are never going to be shot at by legal or illegally obtained means. People the police actually may show up for in time. Maybe.

Completely out of touch with the fact of gun proliferation ban or no ban.

 

[00Syd]

Yay.

But can you still see - whatever, TV on the Radio let's say for at least ten bucks less than in the city? That was the fun part.

Uhm, I can't say I'm totally sure I know what your talking about. Something before my time, perhaps?

 

[Homburg]

Guns: if you're not hunting, camping where there are grizzly bears, or part of a wild west show, why do you need a gun?

*shrug*

You have a library around somewhere and a pen and paper. Why do you need a computer? You have sunlight during the day and candles. Why do you need electric lights? You have access to bicycles and public transportation. Why do you need a car? You have the outdoors. Why do you need internet?

It's not necessarily about need. In fact, honestly, for most people, it is not about need at all. I certainly don't have a need (currently) for any of the firearms I own. In the past, yeah. I needed a sidearm when working armed security. Now, not so much. Doesn't mean that I think that I should not own them, any more than I think that you shouldn't own a computer, car, internet access, etc.

Besides, my guns are demonstrably less dangerous than the pool in your neighbour's back yard. And he doesn't even have a Constitutional right to that pool. The irony is rich indeed.

(Every instance of "you", "your", etc should be considered generic.)