Why are they so many American Jews here?

[Shankara20]

I'm not a Jewish American, I'm Jewish-American. YMMV.

that ok - I'll still take your panties...

hee hee

 

[Shankara20]

We just don't seem west enough in my mind.

That has to do from back when everything west of Chicago was "Out West" - then Kansas was settled and Colorado etc. was "The West"

 

[00Syd]

No, Newark sucks. But every body has an armpit and an asshole. Take your pick.

But Princeton (where my dad worked) and Morristown (where I grew up) areas are gorgeous. And "The Garden State" isn't an ironic name.

I shall now make a personally observed and heartfelt complaint:

"Nobody feels bad ragging on NJ! We're the only oppressed people remaining!"

Why is it okay, people?! WHY!?!

Because it stinks

Sorry...sorry.. New Yorker. Ragging on NJ is in my blood.

Do you remember sometime during the 90s or maybe early 2000s when NJ was accepting submissions to try to come up with a new slogan to replace the Garden State? Some of the suggestions were hilarious. "New Jersey, Fuggetaboutit." "New Jersey: Smell the magic."

 

[Recidiva]

Because it stinks

Sorry...sorry.. New Yorker. Ragging on NJ is in my blood.

Do you remember sometime during the 90s or maybe early 2000s when NJ was accepting submissions to try to come up with a new slogan to replace the Garden State? Some of the suggestions were hilarious. "New Jersey, Fuggetaboutit." "New Jersey: Smell the magic."

I think I saw that on "The Daily Show" and I gave the whole segment the finger.

Fortunately Jon Stewart WILL admit he grew up in NJ and it's a beautiful place. If pressed.

One of the funniest things...now...my family loved to travel. When you travel you meet people. When it would be disclosed we're from "New Jersey" people's eyes would glaze over.

I remember one woman awkwardly saying "Well...wow...you guys must...really...like the trees." and then she excused herself and got away as quickly as possible.

Now...my parents were gardeners. I owned a horse. We had a Christmas tree farm. We'd probably seen (and cut down) more trees than she'd ever touched as we also owned 50 acres of entirely pristine forest in Hunterdon County along the Delaware river where we'd camp on weekends and chop wood for the winter.

Yes, I spent my summers chopping wood. My dad built our house. We heated it only with a wood stove and soapstone warmers for cold nights. We raised chickens and grew more zucchini and rhubarb than any family could possibly consume.

"Yup. Those trees sure are cool. I wonder who built them?"

My dad has a wicked sense of humor and LOVES playing dumb.

 

[intothewoods]

I tend to think of the South in terms of food and accent. People from Northern Virginia do not have an accent. Of course, "people from Northern Virginia" is kind of an oxymoron. Florida is weird - Southerners, Jewish grandparents and the diversity of Miami. I think Miami is one of the coolest American cities I've ever been to. A people watching paradise!

And there are absolutely beautiful parts of New Jersey.

 

[WriterDom]

What makes a place southern? I'm interested to know what this means to southerners, from a cultural perspective.

Knowing little about the culture itself, I perceive "southern" in largely political terms. If a state is physically located in the south, and most of its counties went for Huckabee over McCain in the primary, or if an alarmingly big chunk of the citizenry thinks Palin's just superfantastic, or if white democrats & white independents voted for Obama in significantly lower percentages than those demographics voted for Obama in the country as a whole in November, that's "southern" to me. And why I don't think of Miami or Research Triangle Park or Northern VA as southern - geography notwithstanding.

It's all about influx of non-southerners. Northern Virginia is a suburb of Washington DC. You know Washington, the hottest place in America to you? I think that's where your America stops! South Florida, much of Florida actually, you have had two things going on. The snow birds retiring there from the north and the Cuban population. If you want to think of it in political terms, there isn't much more solid republican vote from the panhandle across to Jacksonville.

And if you carry Northern Virginia, you win the state. That and Richmond. McCain carried 80% or so of the counties.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/state/#val=VA

If you are in the south I can tell you how to tell when you have left it. When you stop seeing a Waffle House at every exit.

 

[Recidiva]

It's all about influx of non-southerners. Northern Virginia is a suburb of Washington DC. You know Washington, the hottest place in America to you? I think that's where your America stops! South Florida, much of Florida actually, you have had two things going on. The snow birds retiring there from the north and the Cuban population. If you want to think of it in political terms, there isn't much more solid republican vote from the panhandle across to Jacksonville.

And if you carry Northern Virginia, you win the state. That and Richmond. McCain carried 80% or so of the counties.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/state/#val=VA

If you are in the south I can tell you how to tell when you have left it. When you stop seeing a Waffle House at every exit.

Where nobody's had crawfish and has never heard of Old Bay...

Here's my cousin's Yankee joke. She grew up in Lake Charles.

+++

A genteel Southern lady was charged with holding a dinner party for her husband's co-workers. To her dismay she discovered a Yankee would be attending, but she decided to make the best of it.

When they arrived, the Southern lady welcomed them, saying "Well, now, honey, where y'all live at?"

The Yankee woman said in a harsh voice "Where we live, we don't dangle participles at the end of our sentences."

The Southern lady hung up their coats and turned back to them and said "Well, now, darlin', I'm sorry, why don't we start over. Where y'all live at, bitch?"

 

[00Syd]

I think I saw that on "The Daily Show" and I gave the whole segment the finger.

Fortunately Jon Stewart WILL admit he grew up in NJ and it's a beautiful place. If pressed.

One of the funniest things...now...my family loved to travel. When you travel you meet people. When it would be disclosed we're from "New Jersey" people's eyes would glaze over.

I remember one woman awkwardly saying "Well...wow...you guys must...really...like the trees." and then she excused herself and got away as quickly as possible.

Now...my parents were gardeners. I owned a horse. We had a Christmas tree farm. We'd probably seen (and cut down) more trees than she'd ever touched as we also owned 50 acres of entirely pristine forest in Hunterdon County along the Delaware river where we'd camp on weekends and chop wood for the winter.

Yes, I spent my summers chopping wood. My dad built our house. We heated it only with a wood stove and soapstone warmers for cold nights. We raised chickens and grew more zucchini and rhubarb than any family could possibly consume.

"Yup. Those trees sure are cool. I wonder who built them?"

My dad has a wicked sense of humor and LOVES playing dumb.

People from NY talk a lot of smack about NJ but I don't know anyone who actually hates it. Some of my favorite things are in NJ! WFMU comes from NJ, Maxwelle's in Hoboken has great bands, lots of good produce comes from NJ, some of my favorite people live in NJ, etc, etc.

It's just a bitch to drive through and half of it stinks

 

[intothewoods]

It's all about influx of non-southerners. Northern Virginia is a suburb of Washington DC. <snip>

Part of it actually was DC, and then it went back to VA.

If you are in the south I can tell you how to tell when you have left it. When you stop seeing a Waffle House at every exit.

ha hah hah ha. That's awesome.

 

[Recidiva]

People from NY talk a lot of smack about NJ but I don't know anyone who actually hates it. Some of my favorite things are in NJ! WFMU comes from NJ, Maxwelle's in Hoboken has great bands, lots of good produce comes from NJ, some of my favorite people live in NJ, etc, etc.

It's just a bitch to drive through and half of it stinks

Oh, I know plenty of people in NYC who despise NJ and wouldn't be caught admitting they'd gone there.

"Bridge and tunnel" isn't inclusive or loving.

But I hung out with the bitchiest people in the theater. I doubt they'd be brought to admit they like anything.

 

[JMohegan]

I always knew Ohio was a midwest state, but never understood it. We just don't seem west enough in my mind. Tho we are too west to be the east coast, and too north to be a southern state. But you have to admit, West Virgina and Kentucky and a few others are pretty north.

But then again, I always sucked at geography. Especially in that area where all the states are square.

Hi, Wench. Ohio seems much more like PA than like Iowa, I agree.

When I think of the midwest, I think about farms. Dairy in Wisconsin, grain in Kansas and Iowa and Illinois - that type of thing.

When I think about Ohio, I think rust belt. (See the map below.)

This isn't to say that there are no farms in Ohio (clearly, there are!) or to pretend that Chicago doesn't exist. I'm really just talking about an economic big picture perspective here.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/rustbeltmap.jpg

 

[intothewoods]

I went on a tour of the capitol building in Richmond and I was kind of that Yankee bitch. I didn't mean to be, but the endless conversation about where we were all from, and what were we all doing here, and the weather just made me sort of mental and I was a bit snippy with my response at one point. I mean, I didn't take the tour to find out about other people on the tour! My boyfriend at the time was really ticked at me, and I still feel sort of badly about it. In my defense, I'd just been to the Musem of the Confederacy and felt kind of like Dorothy in Oz, had Dorothy been raised by lefty Jews.

 

[Recidiva]

I went on a tour of the capitol building in Richmond and I was kind of that Yankee bitch. I didn't mean to be, but the endless conversation about where we were all from, and what were we all doing here, and the weather just made me sort of mental and I was a bit snippy with my response at one point. I mean, I didn't take the tour to find out about other people on the tour! My boyfriend at the time was really ticked at me, and I still feel sort of badly about it. In my defense, I'd just been to the Musem of the Confederacy and felt kind of like Dorothy in Oz, had Dorothy been raised by lefty Jews.

Heh. Well, I consider it more of a cultural difference.

I do understand my Southern family's point of view on the War of Northern Aggression. Regardless of any politics, to see history go up in smoke and families destroyed - not something forgotten or forgiven. My great aunt was a Daughter of the Confederacy. And although northeners can color this ONLY as support of racism or slavery, it is in fact to many people, cherishing lost roots.

Not to say there isn't racism, don't get me wrong. But the South is frank about its racism and covert about everything else. The North is frank about everything else and covert about its racism. (please do not take this literally. poetic license stamped here.) Northeners think southerners are slow and stupid, southerners think northeners are rude and abrupt.

At the heart of it all is just people though. Defending what they know.

I'd always fake a southern accent when I visited to be accepted by neighbors and such. It was just easier. There is a deep resentment in parts about the attitudes and misunderstandings of the North and I didn't want to spend all day explaining, I wanted to play Frisbee with my cousins.

It wasn't any prettier though to watch Northerners go rabid when accusing Southerners all of being stupid racist dupes. My family.

I have a love and appreciation of northern and southern cultures through their Ambassadors, my parents.

 

[JMohegan]

It's all about influx of non-southerners. Northern Virginia is a suburb of Washington DC. You know Washington, the hottest place in America to you? I think that's where your America stops! South Florida, much of Florida actually, you have had two things going on. The snow birds retiring there from the north and the Cuban population. If you want to think of it in political terms, there isn't much more solid republican vote from the panhandle across to Jacksonville.

And if you carry Northern Virginia, you win the state. That and Richmond. McCain carried 80% or so of the counties.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/state/#val=VA

If you are in the south I can tell you how to tell when you have left it. When you stop seeing a Waffle House at every exit.

Waffles? Waffles? That's your answer to the question about southern cultural ID?

I don't think Republican = southern. Instead, Huckabee/Palin Republican = southern, to me. There's a big, big difference. That's why I referenced the '08 primaries.

As for your comment about the influx of non-southerners, they're the reason that parts of the south aren't "southern" anymore - I agree.

 

[Shankara20]

and felt kind of like Dorothy in Oz, had Dorothy been raised by lefty Jews.

There are a few of them-there "lefty Jews" in Kansas to raise Dorthy - but many more on the right side of center.

 

[intothewoods]

Heh. Well, I consider it more of a cultural difference.

I do understand my Southern family's point of view on the War of Northern Aggression. Regardless of any politics, to see history go up in smoke and families destroyed - not something forgotten or forgiven. My great aunt was a Daughter of the Confederacy. And although northeners can color this ONLY as support of racism or slavery, it is in fact to many people, cherishing lost roots.

Not to say there isn't racism, don't get me wrong. But the South is frank about its racism and covert about everything else. The North is frank about everything else and covert about its racism. (please do not take this literally. poetic licence stamped here.) Northeners think southerners are slow and stupid, southerners think northeners are rude and abrupt.

At the heart of it all is just people though. Defending what they know.

I'd always fake a southern accent when I visited to be accepted by neighbors and such. It was just easier. There is a deep resentment in parts about the attitudes and misunderstandings of the North and I didn't want to spend all day explaining, I wanted to play Frisbee with my cousins.

It wasn't any prettier though to watch Northerners go rabid when accusing Southerners all of being stupid racist dupes. My family.

I have a love and appreciation of northern and southern cultures through their Ambassadors, my parents.

Thank you for that post, Recidiva. I'm actually happiest in places where everyone is from somewhere else. I always felt weird as one of a few Jews in a small town, but then when I'm around a ton of east coast Jews I also feel like I'm a freak and am always met predictably with shock and awe when I tell them I'm Jewish. And then I have to list my bona fides. Yes, on my mother's side, motha fuckas! Chicken fat is not a food group!

Anyway, the point is that I find southern culture totally fascinating, because it's just so different from what I what I grew up with.

There are a few of them-there "lefty Jews" in Kansas to raise Dorthy - but many more on the right side of center.

I've heard this rumor! Forgive me, Shank, but do I have this right - you grew up and lived in the midwest, and then lived in California for a time before moving back? Do you feel more at home in the midwest, or California? (Or should I say San Francisco?) I feel like I could move to SF, Portland or Seattle and feel right at home the next day.

 

[Homburg]

What makes a place southern? I'm interested to know what this means to southerners, from a cultural perspective.

Historically, "the South" is defined by which states seceded in the Great Unpleasantness (while I think that the "War of Northern Aggression" is a silly term, "Civil War" is entirely inaccurate). West Virginia is explicitly not southern as it exists because it was the portion of Virginia that split off due to the decisions of the Virginia govt at the outset of the war in question.

Certain midwestern states also fought on the side of the confederacy, but are not considered southern. Cultural reasons divide I would guess, as culture is another defining factor.

Knowing little about the culture itself, I perceive "southern" in largely political terms. If a state is physically located in the south, and most of its counties went for Huckabee over McCain in the primary, or if an alarmingly big chunk of the citizenry thinks Palin's just superfantastic, or if white democrats & white independents voted for Obama in significantly lower percentages than those demographics voted for Obama in the country as a whole in November, that's "southern" to me. And why I don't think of Miami or Research Triangle Park or Northern VA as southern - geography notwithstanding.

I don't define any area by politics. I am more interested in regional culture. Sure, NYC and surroundings might be overwhelmingly blue, but the culture is far more defining than the politics. And I would think that VA and NC's behaviour in the recent election illustrate that. Hell, VA historically has a preference for democrat governors (at least in my time here), as well as relatively balanced representation in congress.

--

Do you remember sometime during the 90s or maybe early 2000s when NJ was accepting submissions to try to come up with a new slogan to replace the Garden State? Some of the suggestions were hilarious. "New Jersey, Fuggetaboutit." "New Jersey: Smell the magic."

So I'm driving to Long Island and come across the Veranzanno, and a ways down the road I see a sign that says "Brooklyn: Fuggedaboutit." (or something along those lines. I was doing 60) I damned near had a car accident from laughing so hard. Totally unexpected.

--

One of the funniest things...now...my family loved to travel. When you travel you meet people. When it would be disclosed we're from "New Jersey" people's eyes would glaze over.

I live in a semi touristy area, and we (used to) see a LOT of folks from other states. Jersey was one of the most commonly represented states, and, wow, could you ever tell. It was always amusing to see the stereotypes of the "Jersey girl" and the guido played out again and again. Sometimes I had to wonder if they were being purposeful caricatures of the image.

I remember one woman awkwardly saying "Well...wow...you guys must...really...like the trees." and then she excused herself and got away as quickly as possible.

If I had to guess, I would say that this is an image thing. If you don't live in Jersey (or surroundings), your experience of the Garden State is likely to be the Jersey Turnpike and endless jokes about the aforementioned Jersey Girls and guidos.

And if you carry Northern Virginia, you win the state. That and Richmond. McCain carried 80% or so of the counties.

Eh, the Virginia Beach area is more important than Richmond for national elections. More people, and generally easier to campaign in due to overall layout. Still, if you look at the 64-95 corridor, you have all the political clout in VA. All that land west of the coast might as well not exist.

You can't say NOVA alone though. NOVA has voted democrat in last six or seven elections at least. Look how often VA went blue.

If you are in the south I can tell you how to tell when you have left it. When you stop seeing a Waffle House at every exit.

I laugh because it is true.

 

[JMohegan]

Heh. Well, I consider it more of a cultural difference.

I do understand my Southern family's point of view on the War of Northern Aggression. Regardless of any politics, to see history go up in smoke and families destroyed - not something forgotten or forgiven. My great aunt was a Daughter of the Confederacy. And although northeners can color this ONLY as support of racism or slavery, it is in fact to many people, cherishing lost roots.

Not to say there isn't racism, don't get me wrong. But the South is frank about its racism and covert about everything else. The North is frank about everything else and covert about its racism. (please do not take this literally. poetic license stamped here.) Northeners think southerners are slow and stupid, southerners think northeners are rude and abrupt.

At the heart of it all is just people though. Defending what they know.

I'd always fake a southern accent when I visited to be accepted by neighbors and such. It was just easier. There is a deep resentment in parts about the attitudes and misunderstandings of the North and I didn't want to spend all day explaining, I wanted to play Frisbee with my cousins.

It wasn't any prettier though to watch Northerners go rabid when accusing Southerners all of being stupid racist dupes. My family.

I have a love and appreciation of northern and southern cultures through their Ambassadors, my parents.

Referencing my comment about the percentage of southern white democrats and white independents who voted for Obama, compared to the percentage of those in the same demographic in the country at large last November - is there a plausible reason other than disparate levels of racism for this gap? I'm sincerely asking.

I understand your point about cherishing lost roots and the War of Northern Aggression, but I honestly can't fathom people sending their kids to the pool with a confederate flag towel a hundred and fifty years after the fact. Okay, the confederacy wasn't all about "yeah for slavery", but surely there's value in teaching the next generation why that symbol might be deeply offensive to large chunks of the southern populace.

For the record, I don't think all southerners are slow and stupid, and it's absolutely true that many northerners are rude and abrupt.

 

[intothewoods]

Waffles? Waffles? That's your answer to the question about southern cultural ID?

I don't think Republican = southern. Instead, Huckabee/Palin Republican = southern, to me. There's a big, big difference. That's why I referenced the '08 primaries.

As for your comment about the influx of non-southerners, they're the reason that parts of the south aren't "southern" anymore - I agree.

How about where waffles and chicken are served, but not ironically?

 

[Recidiva]

I live in a semi touristy area, and we (used to) see a LOT of folks from other states. Jersey was one of the most commonly represented states, and, wow, could you ever tell. It was always amusing to see the stereotypes of the "Jersey girl" and the guido played out again and again. Sometimes I had to wonder if they were being purposeful caricatures of the image.

I sound like the cast of "House"

Not the cast of Sopranos.

But I'm good at accents, I can do both.

 

[Shankara20]

I've heard this rumor! Forgive me, Shank, but do I have this right - you grew up and lived in the midwest, and then lived in California for a time before moving back? Do you feel more at home in the midwest, or California? (Or should I say San Francisco?) I feel like I could move to SF, Portland or Seattle and feel right at home the next day.

That is more-or-less correct. My roots are in Kansas, and I live in Kansas now, but when I visit cities like San Francisco, DC, Portland, Seattle I feel more at home. The "cosmopolitan" of some big cities calls to me. (then there is the very special way I feel about Santa Fe and Taos NM)

I lived in Sacramento CA for a while - it is much like Wichita Kansas - only with 3,000,000 people vs 400,000. In some ways the huge Central Valley of California is much like Kansas - and that is why I was successful as a sales manager there, I could talk their language - and I was miserable.

As you can see I'm of several minds.

 

[JMohegan]

Historically, "the South" is defined by which states seceded in the Great Unpleasantness (while I think that the "War of Northern Aggression" is a silly term, "Civil War" is entirely inaccurate). West Virginia is explicitly not southern as it exists because it was the portion of Virginia that split off due to the decisions of the Virginia govt at the outset of the war in question.

Certain midwestern states also fought on the side of the confederacy, but are not considered southern. Cultural reasons divide I would guess, as culture is another defining factor.

Right, I understand this. What I'm asking about is the culture. What is that defining factor? Is there a way it can be summarized or explained?

 

[JMohegan]

How about where waffles and chicken are served, but not ironically?

This went right over my head.

 

[Recidiva]

Referencing my comment about the percentage of southern white democrats and white independents who voted for Obama, compared to the percentage of those in the same demographic in the country at large last November - is there a plausible reason other than disparate levels of racism for this gap? I'm sincerely asking.

I understand your point about cherishing lost roots and the War of Northern Aggression, but I honestly can't fathom people sending their kids to the pool with a confederate flag towel a hundred and fifty years after the fact. Okay, the confederacy wasn't all about "yeah for slavery", but surely there's value in teaching the next generation why that symbol might be deeply offensive to large chunks of the southern populace.

For the record, I don't think all southerners are slow and stupid, and it's absolutely true that many northerners are rude and abrupt.

Okay, at the risk of opening an even bigger can of cultural worms, but hopefully displaying the emotional point to the debate...

The North did not experience wholesale destruction of entire cities and destruction of the way they lived their lives. Regardless of how those lives were lived, let's put that aside for a moment, because that's the intellectual component the North puts on it. Northerners put the war in terms of ideology.

Southerners put the war in terms of what was lost.

So if you think Iraqis for 150 years are not going to remember that their Capitol was looted and don't really give a damn that it might have been a righteous cause...the people they lost and the culture that was looted...no longer belongs to them and some of them are going to be still very angry and not give a damn that there was any REASON or CAUSE.

We're talking about emotional and painful "destruction of beloved heritage" issues.

Yankees THINK about this as history. Southerners FEEL about this as an unhealed historical wound that gets more grit dug into it by the Northern smug knowledge that EVERYONE in the south was wrong and racist. What the Southerners remember is that their family farm was burned to the ground, their families were killed, starved and thrown off their land, humiliated and disenfranchised.

 

[Shankara20]

Certain midwestern states also fought on the side of the confederacy, but are not considered southern. Cultural reasons divide I would guess, as culture is another defining factor.

Kansas came in late on the side of the North and is not considered a southern state, however much of south east and central Kansas was settled by folks that had lived in Tennessee and Kentucky so there is some cultural overflow. Our largest local fast food chain has grits on the breakfast menu - go figure.