Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

[Homburg]

No smoking, just having survived my mother while growing up.

If a female expresses dominance like a male does, then yes, he would probably be seen as sick. However if she expressed female dominance, then I doubt people even turn their head.

This was basically my experience as well growing up.

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They care, because it's expected for the balance of power to tip towards the husbands.

Is this an explicitly expressed concern, or a pattern of behaviour?

 

[Netzach]

No smoking, just having survived my mother while growing up.

If a female expresses dominance like a male does, then yes, he would probably be seen as sick. However if she expressed female dominance, then I doubt people even turn their head.

You can't really take on the image of the other sex in this society, but you can expresses as how your sex does. And from the mentioned first hand experience, you can have all the power a male does, but a diffrent medium is expected.

Not go into it too deep, but clearly defined sex was an extremely important survival technique which has been deeply stamped into our subconscious. Crossing those lines requires a conscious decision of acceptance or non acceptance. As it stands right now, I think people are more ready to make that objective decision, instead of just relying on intuition.

Look, I'm as sorry for the next person who had an insanely overbearing mother as I am for my own mother - but that doesn't somehow negate 2000 years of patriarchy and then some.

Can we maybe look out the window at the majority of what goes on?

Like this message, conveniently using toys to make sure kids are versed in it, even if the toys are retro. What the flying fuckity fuck?

http://www.mahalo.com/Bridgestone_Potato_Head_Super_Bowl_Ad


Whoop tee do, I'm more likely to be seen as the authority on children. If I had any desire whatsoever to have kids that'd be super. Extra super trying to undo crap like the above.


If I'm lucky I might bend my boss to my whims with a low cut blouse and a softly suggested idea. Because the "male ego is inherently more fragile (what?) " it's MY FAULT if I fail to stroke it sufficiently???


Please sit around at the desk, among the phones and listen to how male lawyers talk about a female lawyer. If you're at the desk and female it's a wonderful position because you do not even exist at that moment and no one cares what you hear.


You have two or three women presumed reasonably intelligent and rational (I'm excluding myself because I'm bordering on neither) in this thread alone saying "yup, that jives with my experience" but because two of you have issues with your moms our experience is somehow invalidated and not "quite right" even though we're the people living every day with a pussy. You're going to tell us how in fact, we have the sexual upper hand in this country, women are encouraged to be sexually dominant, sexual power in women is seen as a good thing simply because you, personally, have a dog in the hunt as to how poorly female sexual submission is seen.

Again, I'm sorry that anyone's sexuality is treated as a dysfunction. But I'm done listening to the only theories that have given women jack shit in the way of anything in this country being the scapegoat. You don't have to look very far to see why female sexuality on its own terms is non-existent.

 

[JMohegan]

I don't know to what degree these are generational things but in my opinion and from what I have observed, women have more day to day authority as budget managers, kid organisers/referees and so on. I know a number of fathers who will recoil in fear when a child bowls up demanding cola or junk food and the paternal mantra is always 'Did you ask you mother?' because within the home, women are generally better at organising, multitasking and ensuring daily stuff runs somewhat smoothly.

Outside of domestic stuff like that though, the men still have all the aces. They know this and they're also geting sick of being expected to be metrosexual, sensitive 'new' men. They're more ready to leave a relationship if they're dissatisfied and regardless of the minority who would seek custody of any kids, men very rarely wind up holding the baby. They're also much warier of marriage and anything that puts them at a huge disadvantage financially if things go wrong. When unmarried couples split, the guy takes his earning power, pays the child support and pitches up a new nest for himself elsewhere. There are few people in modern society less empowered than single mothers. Part of the reason we have a pensions crisis looming is that women still earn less than men and work far fewer years in full time employment (as a very rough generalization) and if they lose their partner/spouse to divorce, death or a cute secretary, their options are serverely limited. I know quite a few men who live like kings in comparison to their ex and kids.

So although a guy might call to check he's not going to cause any domestic trouble by going out with the lads, I believe it's still tacitly understood that men are generally in positions of greater power within relationships. Because of that, women can be quite wary of taking on too much leadership responsibility and disenfranchsing her resident hunter-gatherer. JMO.

To me, professed male domestic incompetence just looks like evidence that traditional gender roles & responsibilities are still firmly in place. I'm guessing that the guy who claims to be incapable of doing laundry or disciplining a child still somehow manages to operate a lawn mower or drive home a nail.

Ultimately, I'd say that real power is economic power, and this is the realm in which women have come far. If she has an education and job experience, then she's got the power to say fuck you and walk out the door without imperiling her own basic health and well-being. But as you say, every year that she spends out of the workforce raising children diminishes that power somewhat. For this reason alone, I find it difficult to see mom's "dominance" in junk food control as a meaningful tilt in the balance of power.

 

[JMohegan]

Like this message, conveniently using toys to make sure kids are versed in it, even if the toys are retro. What the flying fuckity fuck?

http://www.mahalo.com/Bridgestone_Potato_Head_Super_Bowl_Ad

Misogyny and professional football go hand in hand. We could link to a thousand beer commercials, if we wanted to further this point.

 

[Netzach]

Misogyny and professional football go hand in hand. We could link to a thousand beer commercials, if we wanted to further this point.

So how is this not a point?

Sure is a popular pasttime.

Like maybe more influential in the world than oh, my gramma.

 

[JMohegan]

So how is this not a point?

Sure is a popular pasttime.

Like maybe more influential in the world than oh, my gramma.

That IS the point. It's precisely the point, regardless of whatever Jim Stark says.

 

[Netzach]

That IS the point. It's precisely the point, regardless of whatever Jim Stark says.

This is a happy to be self-employed day for me. I've had cause to look back on my employment history and it's kind of a horror movie, look back in anger thing. Makes me want to crack a beer and beat a bitch.

 

[Netzach]

To me, professed male domestic incompetence just looks like evidence that traditional gender roles & responsibilities are still firmly in place. I'm guessing that the guy who claims to be incapable of doing laundry or disciplining a child still somehow manages to operate a lawn mower or drive home a nail.

Like a lot of "helpless" husbands, the truth is that sometimes you are beaten over the head with a list of details you can't understand the importance of as to why it has to be done THIS WAY. I've left in too many collar stays. I know it's bad for bras, but I don't freak out and jump up and down if one goes in the dryer, where he would ask me every single item "can I dry this?" Well, technically no, but dude, who cares?


Type A, meet Type B.

We do our own laundry now and it actually works better, oddly.

I've often been kind of mystified about the rigorous demands of the household-driven party on the less-so one, and in rare occasions this does flow from the male half of the pairing. I do know that whatever I did in the way of anything as a kid was always short, so maybe you just gain a throw up your hands fuck it response to criticism when it comes to this, I'm not sure.

 

[00Syd]

My mother, who is extremely feminist and anti-authoritarian, raised me very much with the idea that women can do it all, raise kids, manage a full time job, and still have a love life. She managed me with minimal input from my dad (not because he didn't want to be involved, but due to financial reasons) from the time I was 6, held down a very demanding full time job, and had/has a boyfriend who she also manages (as he needs a lot of managing). Now, my mother instilled in me the belief that I was capable of this, too. I could not only do anything I wanted, but I could do all of those things all at the same time, and y'know, I've been trying. But the closer and closer I get to becoming an independent adult the more and more I realize that I am completely lacking in this ability.

At first my mom didn't believe me when I explained to her that I had a hard time doing more than one thing at a time, that balancing an involved social life with my academics was a daunting task, that I would begin to fail classes if I got a job (or get fired). She thought that I was being lazy, timid, meek, that I wasn't living up to my full potential or ability.

Recently she was fired from her job because sitting hunched in front of a computer for 8 or 9 or 10 hours a day was seriously fucking up her back. Her doctor realized that she had developed a pinched nerve in her spine that was causing her to have chronic pain, and advised her to take a few months off, and when she still wasn't better at the end of those few months she was fired.

This experience made my mom realize that maybe she, in fact, couldn't do it all, at least without major sacrifice. Despite doing everything her doctors recommend, it doesn't look like her spine is going to get better. Through this she came to terms with the fact that as much as we look alike, we are not alike, and that I cannot do as much as her, and that maybe its for the best. I know that she is very disappointed in herself even though she is coming to terms with me.

Anyway, just an example of the "women can do it all" whathaveyou and a result of it.

 

[Netzach]

My mother, who is extremely feminist and anti-authoritarian, raised me very much with the idea that women can do it all, raise kids, manage a full time job, and still have a love life. She managed me with minimal input from my dad (not because he didn't want to be involved, but due to financial reasons) from the time I was 6, held down a very demanding full time job, and had/has a boyfriend who she also manages (as he needs a lot of managing). Now, my mother instilled in me the belief that I was capable of this, too. I could not only do anything I wanted, but I could do all of those things all at the same time, and y'know, I've been trying. But the closer and closer I get to becoming an independent adult the more and more I realize that I am completely lacking in this ability.

At first my mom didn't believe me when I explained to her that I had a hard time doing more than one thing at a time, that balancing an involved social life with my academics was a daunting task, that I would begin to fail classes if I got a job (or get fired). She thought that I was being lazy, timid, meek, that I wasn't living up to my full potential or ability.

Recently she was fired from her job because sitting hunched in front of a computer for 8 or 9 or 10 hours a day was seriously fucking up her back. Her doctor realized that she had developed a pinched nerve in her spine that was causing her to have chronic pain, and advised her to take a few months off, and when she still wasn't better at the end of those few months she was fired.

This experience made my mom realize that maybe she, in fact, couldn't do it all, at least without major sacrifice. Despite doing everything her doctors recommend, it doesn't look like her spine is going to get better. Through this she came to terms with the fact that as much as we look alike, we are not alike, and that I cannot do as much as her, and that maybe its for the best. I know that she is very disappointed in herself even though she is coming to terms with me.

Anyway, just an example of the "women can do it all" whathaveyou and a result of it.

I've always thought "do it all" was psychotic and damaging. And ultimately, when did men ever have to "do it all?" and why weren't more people asking that question? "Do it all" is not "do what you want". It's not "pick your path" or "make your way"

(I could never multitask all that well in school either. I modeled for art classes, lived off summer savings, and took out more loans, could not do the external part time job gig at all and manage those classes.)

 

[intothewoods]

Is this an explicitly expressed concern, or a pattern of behaviour?

It's a societal norm, as far as I'm concerned. I was listening to Mister Man's favorite radio show - some sort of sports talk but light on the sports man show - and my mouth just hit the floor listening to this one guy get absolutely reamed for having a bossy girlfriend. It wasn't like, wow, your girlfriend is a bitch. The very direct message was, you are not a man.

Look, I'm as sorry for the next person who had an insanely overbearing mother as I am for my own mother - but that doesn't somehow negate 2000 years of patriarchy and then some.

Can we maybe look out the window at the majority of what goes on?

Like this message, conveniently using toys to make sure kids are versed in it, even if the toys are retro. What the flying fuckity fuck?

http://www.mahalo.com/Bridgestone_Potato_Head_Super_Bowl_Ad


Whoop tee do, I'm more likely to be seen as the authority on children. If I had any desire whatsoever to have kids that'd be super. Extra super trying to undo crap like the above.


If I'm lucky I might bend my boss to my whims with a low cut blouse and a softly suggested idea. Because the "male ego is inherently more fragile (what?) " it's MY FAULT if I fail to stroke it sufficiently???


Please sit around at the desk, among the phones and listen to how male lawyers talk about a female lawyer. If you're at the desk and female it's a wonderful position because you do not even exist at that moment and no one cares what you hear.


You have two or three women presumed reasonably intelligent and rational (I'm excluding myself because I'm bordering on neither) in this thread alone saying "yup, that jives with my experience" but because two of you have issues with your moms our experience is somehow invalidated and not "quite right" even though we're the people living every day with a pussy. You're going to tell us how in fact, we have the sexual upper hand in this country, women are encouraged to be sexually dominant, sexual power in women is seen as a good thing simply because you, personally, have a dog in the hunt as to how poorly female sexual submission is seen.

Again, I'm sorry that anyone's sexuality is treated as a dysfunction. But I'm done listening to the only theories that have given women jack shit in the way of anything in this country being the scapegoat. You don't have to look very far to see why female sexuality on its own terms is non-existent.

The previous ad didn't play on my computer. The title and description don't ring a bell. Anyway.

I find office dyamics absolutely fascinating. And you are spot on about female lawyers. It carries over to other professions as well, of course.

There is a lot of discomfort in female sexuality expressed on its own terms. Male sexuality expressed in a way that bucks the idea of men in control is also a discomforting idea to many. But it's funny. My female friends who are wage earners and share pretty equally in decision making would be loathe to do something that would make them like a nag, or withhold sex. That's a wifely duty. But my desire to be sexually submissive makes them uncomfortable.

 

[Netzach]

There is a lot of discomfort in female sexuality expressed on its own terms. Male sexuality expressed in a way that bucks the idea of men in control is also a discomforting idea to many. But it's funny. My female friends who are wage earners and share pretty equally in decision making would be loathe to do something that would make them like a nag, or withhold sex. That's a wifely duty. But my desire to be sexually submissive makes them uncomfortable.

Genuine question: would the Netzach sexual TMI after a few beers make them that much less so? My friends aren't all "ewww gross" but they're definitely "huh, nope, can't relate, that's weird."

The Bridgestone/Firestone ad FWIW is about the satisfaction of the bitch shutting up. Mrs potato head is nagging Mr Potato head about his driving or arguing with him or something. He takes a sharp turn, her mouth falls off, all she can do is glare. Whew, ha ha.

Good thing I'll never ever ever have to buy tires for a car as looong as I live. The puffy french thing is sexy lately.

 

[00Syd]

I've always thought "do it all" was psychotic and damaging. And ultimately, when did men ever have to "do it all?" and why weren't more people asking that question? "Do it all" is not "do what you want". It's not "pick your path" or "make your way"

(I could never multitask all that well in school either. I modeled for art classes, lived off summer savings, and took out more loans, could not do the external part time job gig at all and manage those classes.)

The only way to be a strong, independent woman is to "do it all." If you do any less you are seen as a disappointment or weak or both.

 

[intothewoods]

Genuine question: would the Netzach sexual TMI after a few beers make them that much less so?

Wellll, that is a good question. I would say both would be more uncomfortable with the polyamory, which they view as diluting and harmful to marriage. They might be more comfortable with your sexual interests - as I think they could giggle about it in a girl power sort of way. It occurs to me that what they are probably uncomfortable with for me is articulated power exchange, because I think the idea of articulating the power imbalance is disconcerting.

 

[Netzach]

The only way to be a strong, independent woman is to "do it all." If you do any less you are seen as a disappointment or weak or both.

Well if you do less on the other side you are seen as unnatural, unwomanly unsupportive of motherhood, anti-feminist and obviously not happy poor thing.

 

[Netzach]

Wellll, that is a good question. I would say both would be more uncomfortable with the polyamory, which they view as diluting and harmful to marriage. They might be more comfortable with your sexual interests - as I think they could giggle about it in a girl power sort of way. It occurs to me that what they are probably uncomfortable with for me is articulated power exchange, because I think the idea of articulating the power imbalance is disconcerting.

Would you feel fully supported and embraced if they "giggled about" your sexuality rather than felt uncomfortable?

I think that makes sense. One thing about female sexual Dominance is that when it's not scary it's really really really funny. That high visibility in the mainstream, people are talking about. Dominatrix, whip, fucking funny shit, nine times in ten. Haha.

 

[intothewoods]

Would you feel fully supported and embraced if they "giggled about" your sexuality rather than felt uncomfortable?

I think that makes sense. One thing about female sexual Dominance is that when it's not scary it's really really really funny. That high visibility in the mainstream, people are talking about. Dominatrix, whip, fucking funny shit, nine times in ten. Haha.

I should add that two that I'm thinking about are from Northern California. They are typical progressive, sex-positive, feminist pro-gay marriage types. When I first was in my kinky single groove (not so long ago!), I was open with them in sort of an approval-seeking way. Now I just don't talk about it. I suppose they have now moved into the giggling stage about me and no, I don't feel embraced. I wish I'd never shared in the first place, but c'est la vie. I think one of my friends thinks bdsm is all endless role-playing in place of true intimacy.

 

[intothewoods]

The only way to be a strong, independent woman is to "do it all." If you do any less you are seen as a disappointment or weak or both.

It depends on the generation. I became a mom in the thick of the whole mommy war thing, and interviews with women who went to law school/got an MBA/whatever and were choosing to stay at home. And of course the flip side: must be nice to have that choice!

Right now I'm sort of doing it all, but more accurately, I'm doing everything 3/4 of the way. It sucks. I can't multi-task.

 

[rinka]

It amazes me how domestic responsibilities and workload can be seen as power. Remembering what kind of groceries are needed and dentists appointements, school stuff, where you stored the winter clothes and whatnot isn't a priviledge.

Keeping women occupied with double work and being the one with control over the toiletpaper supply can also be seen as a rather effective powertool.

And it really hasn't got that much to do with sex. Except that it can wear you out.

 

[JMohegan]

My mother, who is extremely feminist and anti-authoritarian, raised me very much with the idea that women can do it all, raise kids, manage a full time job, and still have a love life. She managed me with minimal input from my dad (not because he didn't want to be involved, but due to financial reasons) from the time I was 6, held down a very demanding full time job, and had/has a boyfriend who she also manages (as he needs a lot of managing).

Who cared for you in the summer, after school, or when you were sick?

Everyone has a different definition of what "doing it all" means. I'd say that no one who works full time, has children, and values time spent with children, ever gets to "do it all." In a traditional household, men miss out on a lot.

 

[Netzach]

It amazes me how domestic responsibilities and workload can be seen as power. Remembering what kind of groceries are needed and dentists appointements, school stuff, where you stored the winter clothes and whatnot isn't a priviledge.

Keeping women occupied with double work and being the one with control over the toiletpaper supply can also be seen as a rather effective powertool.

And it really hasn't got that much to do with sex. Except that it can wear you out.

I love you even more.
Lesbian poly marry me. We'll make a chore chart.

 

[JMohegan]

It depends on the generation. I became a mom in the thick of the whole mommy war thing, and interviews with women who went to law school/got an MBA/whatever and were choosing to stay at home. And of course the flip side: must be nice to have that choice!

Right now I'm sort of doing it all, but more accurately, I'm doing everything 3/4 of the way. It sucks. I can't multi-task.

I'm not sure it's completely a generational thing.

My sister was one of those women who built a career on the basis of her strengths and interests alone - and then became totally miserable when she had kids and felt the need to choose either/or.

By "need," I mean the emotional pull. She had options for daycare or nanny.

My college-age niece learned from her mother's struggles, and now contemplates her career on the basis of her own strengths and weaknesses PLUS an assessment of the relative flexibility in time & commitment of her potential choice. Litigation is out, for example.

 

[Netzach]

Who cared for you in the summer, after school, or when you were sick?

Everyone has a different definition of what "doing it all" means. I'd say that no one who works full time, has children, and values time spent with children, ever gets to "do it all." In a traditional household, men miss out on a lot.

The way things are set up absolutely screws men, I really don't discount this one bit, much as I may have the periodic cry me a river response when men want to pin the blame on feminism - second wave feminism wasn't perfect/isn't perfect. But it's impossible to expect women to have a response to patriarchy that's not equally as fucked up BY patriarchy and by classist and racist norms. The mistake was in thinking anyone could ever fully divest themselves of their problems, nirvana-like in the way they chart their challenges to the systems.

The whole response I always had to Audre Lorde and the "master's tools" line is that those are the only tools and the only possible tools. At best we can redesign a little as needed.

 

[00Syd]

Who cared for you in the summer, after school, or when you were sick?

Everyone has a different definition of what "doing it all" means. I'd say that no one who works full time, has children, and values time spent with children, ever gets to "do it all." In a traditional household, men miss out on a lot.

In the summer I went to sleep away camp, after school I went to After School, and when I was sick, if I was at my moms house that day, I stayed home alone locked in the apartment with her coming home during lunch to check on me if she could and coming home as early as she could, and if I was at my dad's house he would usually drop me off at my moms house, but I was rarely sick.

She really did do it all as best she could, and she still is. Wrestling with her insurance company is almost like a full time job.

I stayed with my dad half the week, and yes, I slept there, but the real child-raising was done by my mom. Again, not because my dad was some bum, but because he didn't have anywhere near the comfortable financial situation that my mom (I guess now I have to say) had, and so she made all the big decisions.

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not sure it's completely a generational thing.

My sister was one of those women who built a career on the basis of her strengths and interests alone - and then became totally miserable when she had kids and felt the need to choose either/or.

By "need," I mean the emotional pull. She had options for daycare or nanny.

My college-age niece learned from her mother's struggles, and now contemplates her career on the basis of her own strengths and weaknesses PLUS an assessment of the relative flexibility in time & commitment of her potential choice. Litigation is out, for example.

I was thinking about gen x v. millenials. Doing it all seems to be a bit back in vogue to me.

Litigation is out. Ha ha, oh that makes me laugh. Good luck to her, truly. I'd write more on the topic but I've been dragged into...you guessed it. When the economy goes bad, litigation pays the bills.