Article: The Healthy Female Submissive

[Netzach]

My perspective here is limited, so I won't go any farther on it.

--



That is basically the point I am making. No one is getting validation.



No. Maybe it is my experience only, but I remember being told as a young boy to open doors for ladies, then as a teenager that a woman didn't need men to open the door for her. I was told as a young boy that men should protect women, then the message got turned around again when I got older. Yep, lots of legacy literature points to male power, but, again, a whole lot of that got turned around when I was growing up.

You didn't tell your girlfriend that you expected sex. You petitioned for it. You did not tell a girl that she would accompany you to the movies, you asked, and it was expected that she be given the option to chose the movie. You don't tell your SO that you are going out with the guys, you check with her first to make sure it's okay. Yeah, plenty of dickheads out there (like me) that do the things they aren't supposed to do, but that was not how society told me I was to act around a woman. The vast majority of sexual and romantic situations were handled in ways that made explicitly clear that the woman had the power to make the critical decisions, and maintained constant veto authority.

In the world I grew up in, the manly-men that ran their households with an iron fist were considered to be jerks, and the women that did the same? Well, more often than not, it was just desserts.

So, no, in my view, the way I run my relationship is not validated all over the place. Barefoot and pregnant died a long time ago.



Hell, I'll validate you all day long. I think what you're doing, while not my personal cup of tea, is bad-ass. I just don't see culture and society constantly reinforcing that women should be meek. Vacuous, shallow, and image-obsessed, sure, but meek? No. Not really.




Yeah, serious. You've said many times that you don't do guys that are straight. Do you hang out with them? It can be tiresome, I admit, but I have a lot of male friends that are straight, and they're your average schmucks. There is not one bit of "We know it's not like that out here." The closest thing is exactly what I said above: "At least I'm not as bad as that guy."

I could list probably twenty guys that I know personally that are currently in relationships, and the majority of them do what their wife/girlfriend tells them to do. Is it an obvious and acknowledged power exchange? Nope, but the woman still holds the reins, and the guys, at most, grumble about it.

Maybe it is because the vast majority of the guys I hang out with are over-educated slackers like myself, but I don't see the stereotypical ball-scratching "Bitch, fetch me a pot pie" guys in my life. Even the non-over-educated non-slackers that I deal with on a regular basis tend to provide contextual clues about the power in their relationships when they talk about their wives/girlfriends.

See, I deal with a lot of blue collar regular joes in my line of work, and most that I've gotten to know are very practiced at saying "Yes, dear" and meaning it. The ones that aren't? They're usually divorced.

I'm not talking about "Bitch fetch me a pot pie" surface issues. I'm talking about whether being in a relationship is the kind of thing that you put at the center of your life and everything else conforms to how your partner fits into the picture. Many more women do this, in fact *every* woman I know does this, more than men do, self included.

Most mutual schedule clearing courtesies, and yes, these tend to run in both directions with people calling each other, have to do with the simple realities of two working people - certainly the reality of most blue collar families. I don't think it's about empowerment as much as coordination.

I wouldn't even consider "doing what M tells me to do" being under his power when it comes to the detail work of my day, because frankly it's not about sabotaging my autonomy it's about winding up in the right place at the right time.

To me, the fact that it registers that way in my head says that I've been trained to be much more comfortable with that.

 

[Netzach]

Did we just enter bizarro world? If the apron has metal studs, I will feel better.

I actually like making cookies, unlike HRC who had to fake it. Lemon bars, actually.
And you are on to me. I do *want* a checked apron but do not own one. I have a novelty apron from Italy with a sexy bust in a black bustier in PVC airbrushed on. It says, cryptically "Black Woman."

This was a gift from my father in law who knows me very well.

My family is like a John Cameron Mitchell movie.

 

[JMohegan]

This commercial came out when I was in college.

Ahh, the good old days of classic feminism!

 

[Netzach]

This commercial came out when I was in college.

Ahh, the good old days of classic feminism!

OMG so awesome. I think "cashmere bouquet" SNL is the spoof of that?

 

[JMohegan]

OMG so awesome. I think "cashmere bouquet" SNL is the spoof of that?

I haven't heard of the SNL bit, but the original is classic indeed!

Back in the day, of course, we had no way to see commercials unless they popped on when we happened to be watching TV. I heard about the Enjoli ad loooong before I ever actually saw it in any form other than spoof performed by college girls.

 

[CutieMouse]

I haven't heard of the SNL bit, but the original is classic indeed!

Back in the day, of course, we had no way to see commercials unless they popped on when we happened to be watching TV. I heard about the Enjoli ad loooong before I ever actually saw it in any form other than spoof performed by college girls.

I remember that commercial from when I was a little girl.

 

[Homburg]

I agree with Netzach, and I would say most of the wives on TV with power seem to get that power by, yes, being cute, or being devious or a master manipulator. I haven't watched a lot of sitcoms recently, so I'm struggling to think of female head of household decision-makers.

Um, what does it matter how they achieved their power? Manipulation is still power.

Wow, I have not had that experience. I don't know many "bitch fetch me a pot pie" type husbands, but most wives I know do not call the shots.

Do their husbands call the shots? Or are they more of a discussion forum?

--

I'm not talking about "Bitch fetch me a pot pie" surface issues. I'm talking about whether being in a relationship is the kind of thing that you put at the center of your life and everything else conforms to how your partner fits into the picture. Many more women do this, in fact *every* woman I know does this, more than men do, self included.

Most mutual schedule clearing courtesies, and yes, these tend to run in both directions with people calling each other, have to do with the simple realities of two working people - certainly the reality of most blue collar families. I don't think it's about empowerment as much as coordination.

I wouldn't even consider "doing what M tells me to do" being under his power when it comes to the detail work of my day, because frankly it's not about sabotaging my autonomy it's about winding up in the right place at the right time.

To me, the fact that it registers that way in my head says that I've been trained to be much more comfortable with that.

*blink*

The point has experienced shift. I have been talking about power in relationships. Now it is whether that relationship is core to their reality or not. I'm a little lost.

I am looking at these chaps and seeing how they do not control their households. I see a power relationship. I see it expressed rather obviously in their conversations. Its not coordinating schedules, it's "Honey, the guys want to go out tonight. Can I go?" That isn't coordination. It's petitioning for permission.

 

[JMohegan]

I remember that commercial from when I was a little girl.

Really? Do you remember what you thought about it?

 

[intothewoods]

Re: manipulation as power. It's sort of closeted power, because the appearance of male power must be preserved.

As to calling the shots v. discussion, I know more husbands who call the shots, though day to day decisions about child-rearing and things related to the home are more the wives' arena. In the couples I know who negotiate, the husbands and wives both work out of the home.

 

[intothewoods]

I actually like making cookies, unlike HRC who had to fake it. Lemon bars, actually.
And you are on to me. I do *want* a checked apron but do not own one. I have a novelty apron from Italy with a sexy bust in a black bustier in PVC airbrushed on. It says, cryptically "Black Woman."

This was a gift from my father in law who knows me very well.

My family is like a John Cameron Mitchell movie.

Heh heh, nice!

 

[Netzach]

Um, what does it matter how they achieved their power? Manipulation is still power.

There's a huge difference between being brought up in power and having to wrest it, slumdog millionaire style, from a world that desperately doesn't want you to.

I am looking at these chaps and seeing how they do not control their households. I see a power relationship. I see it expressed rather obviously in their conversations. Its not coordinating schedules, it's "Honey, the guys want to go out tonight. Can I go?" That isn't coordination. It's petitioning for permission.

And do these women tend to just drop everything and off with the GF's and leave a note saying "change baby, pick up cheese, don't wait up?" Or is it also possibly a bit more discussion forum than it might seem from hanging with one side of the equation? I don't know them, maybe it's not. Seems to me that the fact that it's *against the grain of expecation* is what makes this noticeable whatsoever. Every woman I hang with in a relationship also asks if changing plans is "OK."

 

[CutieMouse]

Really? Do you remember what you thought about it?

It came out when I would have been 7-ish? It was a catchy jingle, and my sister and I used to act out the commercial, even though we really had no clue.

I remember feeling the [implied] pressure to do it all - work/family/whatever that last part of the song meant, and that not wanting to "do it all" was wrong.

(I should probably mention that I was raised in a very feminist household, and managed to grow up to be an enormous disappointment - always more interested in family/art/domestic arts than climbing the corporate ladder. )

 

[Homburg]

Re: manipulation as power. It's sort of closeted power, because the appearance of male power must be preserved.

Because the male ego is inherently more fragile, not because they care about male-female power.

As to calling the shots v. discussion, I know more husbands who call the shots, though day to day decisions about child-rearing and things related to the home are more the wives' arena. In the couples I know who negotiate, the husbands and wives both work out of the home.

In my non-kinky circle of friends, I know one guy that calls the shots, period. One. The rest discuss.

--

There's a huge difference between being brought up in power and having to wrest it, slumdog millionaire style, from a world that desperately doesn't want you to.

"Brought up in power" is a generational thing then. As I said above, not opening doors and the like was drilled into myself and the males I knew growing up. I still did it, as society at large may tell me one thing, but I was still raised to be chivalrous, and I enjoy it. Then again, look how I turned out. Again, I am looking at my peers.

And do these women tend to just drop everything and off with the GF's and leave a note saying "change baby, pick up cheese, don't wait up?"

This is becoming more less uncommon, yes.

Or is it also possibly a bit more discussion forum than it might seem from hanging with one side of the equation? I don't know them, maybe it's not. Seems to me that the fact that it's *against the grain of expecation* is what makes this noticeable whatsoever. Every woman I hang with in a relationship also asks if changing plans is "OK."

Expectation? I expect most men to do what their wives tell them to do (within certain boundaries). Why would it stand out? I tend to notice it far more when the man is the decision-making party. And the anecdotes I am offering are one-sided only on the part about blue-collar joes in the workplace. With my friends and acquaintances, I was referencing relationships where I know both parties.

It has been my experience that most relationships are discussion forums on big issues. Very few are unilateral deciders. Hell, I'm not the unilateral decider when it comes to big issues here. TPE or not, they are going to have questions, ideas, and input. I may disregard any of that, but there is still discussion as I value their opinions.

It really comes down to subtle things. There is a difference in tone when you are coordinating schedules and when you are asking permission.

 

[Netzach]

"Brought up in power" is a generational thing then.

I don't think we're going to agree on this. I'm glad that sexism, especially institutional sexism is over, though. Whew.

 

[Netzach]

It came out when I would have been 7-ish? It was a catchy jingle, and my sister and I used to act out the commercial, even though we really had no clue.

I remember feeling the [implied] pressure to do it all - work/family/whatever that last part of the song meant, and that not wanting to "do it all" was wrong.

(I should probably mention that I was raised in a very feminist household, and managed to grow up to be an enormous disappointment - always more interested in family/art/domestic arts than climbing the corporate ladder. )

The idea that one could/should/must "do everything" is going to always disappoint someone. The fact is, we're forced to decide from a range of things no one person can do all of, and then whatever we decide to do, we're brutally chided for the choice made. If you're a man and you do maybe 20 percent of the "domestic arts" people fall over themselves to annoint you a great Dad. If you're the mom, you are some kind of mutant.

 

[CutieMouse]

The idea that one could/should/must "do everything" is going to always disappoint someone. The fact is, we're forced to decide from a range of things no one person can do all of, and then whatever we decide to do, we're brutally chided for the choice made. If you're a man and you do maybe 20 percent of the "domestic arts" people fall over themselves to annoint you a great Dad. If you're the mom, you are some kind of mutant.

My dad actually taught me everything - how to cook, bake, sew a button, keep house, do laundry, etc.

And the inability to please everyone is part of why I ended up divorced, kids living with their father 95% of the time, and very careful about letting people know how much I love and miss "domestic arts" sorts of things.

(I really would make such the kick ass professional girlfriend/household manager chick. LOL)

 

[Homburg]

I don't think we're going to agree on this. I'm glad that sexism, especially institutional sexism is over, though. Whew.

Sexism is over? Who is saying that? I'm just saying that the idea that men are all raised to be in charge in relationships is not quite so solid an idea.

And, no, we aren't going to agree. Our positions are selected for us as much by our peer groups and experiences as anything else. I am a straight male, and hang out frequently with straight males (well, did. Not so much any more, whee). And they are going to tell me things that they would never tell you. I see the interactions that you would only see by accident. Likewise, you hear and see things that I don't because of the people you hang out with. Those perceptions and experiences colour our positions.

I was also raised largely by my dominant-ish mother. The majority of the friends that I've referenced were raised by single mothers. It is likely that this both mine, and their, outlook on this. The fact that we all came up in the same era influences it too.

So your experience supports your generalisations. My experience supports my exception. *shrug*

 

[Homburg]

If you're a man and you do maybe 20 percent of the "domestic arts" people fall over themselves to annoint you a great Dad.

I catch shit all the time because I am laundry-challenged, and wouldn't know what to do with a hot iron even with instructions. My male friends all know how to do all this domestic shit that I'm clueless about (I can cook, sort of, and that's about it), and they really do give me hell about my ignorance.

*shrug* I lived at home basically until I got married. I did stuff around the house at home, but my mother gave up on trying to teach me laundry and the like. viv tried too, and likewise gave up. It ain't gonna click, and cleaning up after my laundry-related catastrophies is no fun for anyone.

That said, I remember one time getting positively cheered by a friend of my mother for what a great dad I was because I brushed out youngest daughter's hair, put it in two pigtails, and made sure she had berets that matched. Sad. Add in cooking, and, yeah, I get kudos. Stupid.

If expectations are that low, my sex is a complete failure in that area.

 

[Netzach]

Sexism is over? Who is saying that? I'm just saying that the idea that men are all raised to be in charge in relationships is not quite so solid an idea.

And, no, we aren't going to agree. Our positions are selected for us as much by our peer groups and experiences as anything else. I am a straight male, and hang out frequently with straight males (well, did. Not so much any more, whee). And they are going to tell me things that they would never tell you. I see the interactions that you would only see by accident. Likewise, you hear and see things that I don't because of the people you hang out with. Those perceptions and experiences colour our positions.

I was also raised largely by my dominant-ish mother. The majority of the friends that I've referenced were raised by single mothers. It is likely that this both mine, and their, outlook on this. The fact that we all came up in the same era influences it too.

So your experience supports your generalisations. My experience supports my exception. *shrug*

The idea that *any* women are raised to be in charge of relationships is more the notion that I'm having issues buying into.

I talk to enough women who are dissatisfied with the passivity of their men, uncomfortable with the degree to which they're forced into leadership etc. etc, but absolutely NONE who are satisfied with their power position other than self-professed BDSM Dominant women. I don't know every woman in the world and I know there are covertly happy Female-led relationships, but I don't know them. I think they may even have been more prevalent in the past than now.

If you are a woman and a man being more passive than you does not leave you uncomfortable and restless you are relegated to freak land. Just look at this board for a week.

 

[Netzach]

I catch shit all the time because I am laundry-challenged, and wouldn't know what to do with a hot iron even with instructions. My male friends all know how to do all this domestic shit that I'm clueless about (I can cook, sort of, and that's about it), and they really do give me hell about my ignorance.

*shrug* I lived at home basically until I got married. I did stuff around the house at home, but my mother gave up on trying to teach me laundry and the like. viv tried too, and likewise gave up. It ain't gonna click, and cleaning up after my laundry-related catastrophies is no fun for anyone.

That said, I remember one time getting positively cheered by a friend of my mother for what a great dad I was because I brushed out youngest daughter's hair, put it in two pigtails, and made sure she had berets that matched. Sad. Add in cooking, and, yeah, I get kudos. Stupid.

If expectations are that low, my sex is a complete failure in that area.

I'm like that too. I'm proud of myself when I remember to bag up the trash.

Get the hell out of my kitchen, though, I'm a dick about cooking.

 

[Homburg]

The idea that *any* women are raised to be in charge of relationships is more the notion that I'm having issues buying into.

You should hear some of the things my mom says to Eldest Daughter then.

I talk to enough women who are dissatisfied with the passivity of their men, uncomfortable with the degree to which they're forced into leadership etc. etc, but absolutely NONE who are satisfied with their power position other than self-professed BDSM Dominant women. I don't know every woman in the world and I know there are covertly happy Female-led relationships, but I don't know them. I think they may even have been more prevalent in the past than now.

To an extent, I agree. I can see many quiet examples of female-led households in literature, old news articles and the like. Nothing very strong, but still there. Hell, Donna Reed, patron saint of the perfect mother, always seemed like she was more in charge than her hubby ever was.

There is also the argument that men are being culturally emasculated. Women may not be empowered by modern society, but I see so many balless, immature, toxically-selfish wimps calling themselves men that it is pathetic.

If you are a woman and a man being more passive than you does not leave you uncomfortable and restless you are relegated to freak land. Just look at this board for a week.

Isn't this officially freak land already? Aren't we all here? I'm here. I think.

I'm like that too. I'm proud of myself when I remember to bag up the trash.

Get the hell out of my kitchen, though, I'm a dick about cooking.

Heh, I am horrible in the kitchen too.

 

[mylaceratedheart]

I don't know to what degree these are generational things but in my opinion and from what I have observed, women have more day to day authority as budget managers, kid organisers/referees and so on. I know a number of fathers who will recoil in fear when a child bowls up demanding cola or junk food and the paternal mantra is always 'Did you ask you mother?' because within the home, women are generally better at organising, multitasking and ensuring daily stuff runs somewhat smoothly.

Outside of domestic stuff like that though, the men still have all the aces. They know this and they're also geting sick of being expected to be metrosexual, sensitive 'new' men. They're more ready to leave a relationship if they're dissatisfied and regardless of the minority who would seek custody of any kids, men very rarely wind up holding the baby. They're also much warier of marriage and anything that puts them at a huge disadvantage financially if things go wrong. When unmarried couples split, the guy takes his earning power, pays the child support and pitches up a new nest for himself elsewhere. There are few people in modern society less empowered than single mothers. Part of the reason we have a pensions crisis looming is that women still earn less than men and work far fewer years in full time employment (as a very rough generalization) and if they lose their partner/spouse to divorce, death or a cute secretary, their options are serverely limited. I know quite a few men who live like kings in comparison to their ex and kids.

So although a guy might call to check he's not going to cause any domestic trouble by going out with the lads, I believe it's still tacitly understood that men are generally in positions of greater power within relationships. Because of that, women can be quite wary of taking on too much leadership responsibility and disenfranchsing her resident hunter-gatherer. JMO.

 

[YourCaptor]

Than one who decides where her husband can work, if he's allowed to go for a promotion and what he eats for dinner?

Can I please have at whatever you are smoking?

No smoking, just having survived my mother while growing up.

If a female expresses dominance like a male does, then yes, he would probably be seen as sick. However if she expressed female dominance, then I doubt people even turn their head.

You can't really take on the image of the other sex in this society, but you can expresses as how your sex does. And from the mentioned first hand experience, you can have all the power a male does, but a diffrent medium is expected.

Not go into it too deep, but clearly defined sex was an extremely important survival technique which has been deeply stamped into our subconscious. Crossing those lines requires a conscious decision of acceptance or non acceptance. As it stands right now, I think people are more ready to make that objective decision, instead of just relying on intuition.

 

[intothewoods]

Because the male ego is inherently more fragile, not because they care about male-female power.

They care, because it's expected for the balance of power to tip towards the husbands.

 

[JMohegan]

It came out when I would have been 7-ish? It was a catchy jingle, and my sister and I used to act out the commercial, even though we really had no clue.

I remember feeling the [implied] pressure to do it all - work/family/whatever that last part of the song meant, and that not wanting to "do it all" was wrong.

(I should probably mention that I was raised in a very feminist household, and managed to grow up to be an enormous disappointment - always more interested in family/art/domestic arts than climbing the corporate ladder. )

Debate on campus generally centered around two aspects of the commercial.

First, the role of "Charles of the Ritz"and the male voice-over, and whether the subliminal message was: Women can't possibly do it all without male guidance. (Chuck saves the day by making the 8-hour perfume, thank god!)

And second, the rather obvious message that it's okay for women to have careers as long as they can still stroke male egos, and whether that says more about the tenuous nature of women's newfound empowerment, or whether it just says something really pathetic about males.

What's interesting to me, in retrospect, is that no one was debating the implicit assumption that women would be taking on careers while still maintaining traditional female responsibilities. It wasn't until much later, when my generation actually started families, that people started to realize the crushing burden this would entail.