How do you know?

[Valleyl81]

I've been lurking around here for a bit, and have decided to tap the wisdom of this community...

My question is, how do you know if you're a sub, Dom, or nothing (or I suppose vanilla seems to be the term to use instead of "nothing")? And at what point do you decide to give yourself that label?

I've seen some people say that they are Dom or sub because that's just who they are. Some subs, for example, say they're just naturally submissive people; others have dominant personalities in most of their life but still consider themselves a sub. So is it some innate part of who you are that you have no control over, or is it a choice that it's something you want in a relationship?

So I guess I'd like to know how would I know for sure about myself? And, from people who have something they identify as, how did you know? What thoughts/experiences/whatever led you to that knowledge about yourself?

 

[twysted73]

I've been lurking around here for a bit, and have decided to tap the wisdom of this community...

My question is, how do you know if you're a sub, Dom, or nothing (or I suppose vanilla seems to be the term to use instead of "nothing")? And at what point do you decide to give yourself that label?

QUOTE]



Well first off, a label is only a general marker to give you a direction. North and South vs. Latitude and Longitude. Both are, essentially, the same thing except one is far more speciffic.

How do you know what you are? For many it's a natural answer. For some with complex perceptions on an array of choices, it can seem insurmountable choosing one.

It's a general belief that there are far more submissivces then Dominants. It's very...bottom-heavy.
It's been suggested by some that whether you end up Dominant or stay submissive, it's good to start at the bottom as a submissive for the introspect, the perception and the insider's understanding of just what makes a sub feel submissive. For some Dominants, they never felt the need for this step.
"To each their own."
Say that a lot to yourself as you search. Keep it as a mini-mantra and you'll already be ahead of the game.

For Dominants there seems to be a heavier burden of general responsability existing due to the fact that two, not just one's safety has to be cared for and attended. But if you were to ask a gorean slave she'd probably argue the point respectfully.

As for who does the most work between the Dominant & the submissive is a conversation and a debate in and of itself.
But, if by chance, you're unable to go to a local munch (age/disability/transportation isses) or meet up with locals at any venue, there are a few things I can suggest to you.

1.) Stories here in Lit. Many good ones depicting many kinds of styles and preferences. See, as you read, which ones you identify with the most.

2.) Videos. Watch them in action. Again, which possition turns you on? Is it the Dominant who's in control of the situation, guiding the submissive on an emotional and psychological hourney of self-enjoyment? Or is it the submissive? As they respond with devotion-filled eyes and mositened, hungry lips "Yes Sir/Ma'am, etc."

Allow these avenues to be like sounding rods within you and allow your body's reactions to direct you where you mind wants to go.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

~ Slainte`

 

[Valleyl81]

Ok, I'm going to snip a bit and ask some follow-up questions...

It's a general belief that there are far more submissivces then Dominants. It's very...bottom-heavy.

It's been suggested by some that whether you end up Dominant or stay submissive, it's good to start at the bottom as a submissive for the introspect, the perception and the insider's understanding of just what makes a sub feel submissive. For some Dominants, they never felt the need for this step.

But, if by chance, you're unable to go to a local munch (age/disability/transportation isses) or meet up with locals at any venue, there are a few things I can suggest to you.

1.) Stories here in Lit. Many good ones depicting many kinds of styles and preferences. See, as you read, which ones you identify with the most.

2.) Videos. Watch them in action. Again, which possition turns you on? Is it the Dominant who's in control of the situation, guiding the submissive on an emotional and psychological hourney of self-enjoyment? Or is it the submissive? As they respond with devotion-filled eyes and mositened, hungry lips "Yes Sir/Ma'am, etc."

Allow these avenues to be like sounding rods within you and allow your body's reactions to direct you where you mind wants to go.

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor.

~ Slainte`

So, if it's bottom-heavy, does that mean there tends to be many submissives without a partner? Or do Doms often have more than one submissive?

I'm not sure I see the point of a dominant "starting at the bottom". Don't you have to want to do it? If it goes against your nature, doesn't that mean you can't really experience it the same way that someone who really is a sub would, anyway?

As for stories and videos, do you think that's something that really gives a true impression? That suggestion gives me the impression that it's only about sex... is that true?

 

[Ladythunder]

First of all, hi and welcome to lit!

There seems to be a heavy prevalence of bottoms so yes, indeed there are many subbies without Doms, though there are also a great number of unattached Doms, it's like any relationship, some mesh with others, some don't.

If I was to label myself I would call myself a switch, heavy on the dominant. Which means I play both sides of the fence depending on who I am with as there are a couple people that I dearly love to take control and be all domly with (lol) and a couple that a simple "Bend over and be ready" is enough to make me weak in the knees.

As for stories and videos, they're generally geared to get people off so yes, they are pretty much all about sex. I have discovered a wealth of information doing more reading in these forums and asking lots of questions than in any video or story I have found.

However, I think Twysted was mentioning those as a point of reference to find the things you are interested in. Reading a book about someone flogging another is all well and fine, but does it give you enough information to know if that sort of activity gets you hot? Do you know if you might like to be the flogee or the flogger? I believe the suggestion was made as an alternative medium for exploration.

As for whether it's all about the sex, again it all depends on the person. I believe that sex and arousal is 90% in the mind therefore to me, it is definitely not just about the sex at all. But to another, they might find their kink by having a girl willingly bend over so they can slam it up the backdoor and that's fine too because that's their kink...it's just not mine.

The best part I find about this 'lifestyle' is the sheer variety of it. The challenge can be in finding out what You want. You are different than everyone else here, you might like some or all of what another likes but it is your personal exploration of what makes you tick, nobody elses.

 

[cf23430]

Lady Thunder.....if a guys likes to recieve a strap on from a girl....is he a sub.....or is that a kink.....or I guess both.

 

[Ladythunder]

Just my opinion here;

If a guy Just likes to get taken with a strapon, it is pretty much a kink, I've known a few guys that love to be fucked but there's no other aspect of their personna that is submissive whatsoever. In fact a close friend of mine is an oxymoron himself if I was to use ass fucking as a measuring stick because he is extremely dominant in his personal relationships but every once in a while he likes nothing more than a good fucking.

I think to classify oneself as submissive there must be more elements involved, but again, that's just my opinion.

 

[cf23430]

Well thank you for that opinion. I was thinking it was just a kink as well. Just wish there where more ladies in my world/area that loved/liked doing it

 

[Valleyl81]

Just my opinion here;

If a guy Just likes to get taken with a strapon, it is pretty much a kink, I've known a few guys that love to be fucked but there's no other aspect of their personna that is submissive whatsoever. In fact a close friend of mine is an oxymoron himself if I was to use ass fucking as a measuring stick because he is extremely dominant in his personal relationships but every once in a while he likes nothing more than a good fucking.

I think to classify oneself as submissive there must be more elements involved, but again, that's just my opinion.

I think that bolded part is part of what I was trying to get at. So, in your opinion, to classify oneself as submissive, what elements exactly need to be involved? Is it specific things: you need to do A, B, and C; or do you need to do 5 out of 10 things? (As if there's a checklist somewhere like in teen magazines... though somehow I think not)

 

[twysted73]

So, if it's bottom-heavy, does that mean there tends to be many submissives without a partner? Or do Doms often have more than one submissive?

Been covered. Not every Dom is partnered. It really is just a new type of relationship with checks, balances, lines not to be crossed and lines that need to be.

Don't you have to want to do it? If it goes against your nature, doesn't that mean you can't really experience it the same way that someone who really is a sub would, anyway?

If you don't want to do it...would that not tell you something in and of itself?
If submitting is such a hard thing for you to wrap your mind around, then perhaps Dominating is your true calling.

As for stories and videos, do you think that's something that really gives a true impression? That suggestion gives me the impression that it's only about sex... is that true?

No, it's not all about sex. Not every D/s video is about sex. Many I've seen barely touch on sex.
As I've mentioned, these are suggestions to get you pointed in the right direction. I would love nothing more then to take that eager mind of yours and match it up with a suitable and willing Dominant who is happy to mentor you.
That would be the ideal situation I'd wish for you.
But.....this is what we've got for the moment.

 

[Ladythunder]

That one is unfortunately a very, very big grey area. Because there are so many different levels of submission etc and so many different ways people can say they are submissive or dominant or whatever it is nearly impossible to define.

My personal opinion is just because person A likes action X and nothing else he is kinky not submissive

However.

If person A Says they are submissive because they like action X but nothing else then to Them they are. It really doesn't matter what others think when it boils down to it. You are what you choose to label yourself.

(that would be also why I hate labels Lol)

One of the biggest things to remember is that just because someone doesn't like certain things, it does not mean they are less or more 'true' than another

 

[Valleyl81]

If you don't want to do it...would that not tell you something in and of itself?
If submitting is such a hard thing for you to wrap your mind around, then perhaps Dominating is your true calling.

The question that you're responding to here isn't necessarily about me. The point was, if a person already believes himself to be dominant, why would they have to start out as a sub? What would be the point if they already know that's what they want? And are subs encouraged to try the role of a dominant just so they can feel what the other person feels, too, or is that a one-sided mandate?

 

[be_ignited]

The question that you're responding to here isn't necessarily about me. The point was, if a person already believes himself to be dominant, why would they have to start out as a sub? What would be the point if they already know that's what they want? And are subs encouraged to try the role of a dominant just so they can feel what the other person feels, too, or is that a one-sided mandate?

The idea behind it is that by being a sub first, a Dom will then better understand his or her submissive partner's headspace and reactions in later relationships. Personally, I don't think this is very valid reasoning as someone who is submissive , enjoys being submissive and wants to submit will process the act of submission differently than someone whose heart isn't in it. YMMV.

This isn't a requirement for being dominant. Many Doms never go this route and, in my opinion, it doesn't make them any better or worse as Dominants.

You're right in that subs are rarely if ever encouraged to Dominate as "training" for being submissive. Such is the double standard

I do think this type of switching can be useful when it comes to topping/bottoming (giving/receiving sensation). An example, from my own experience: I'm not much of a masochist. The types of pain that I find pleasurable are pretty limited. I'm fairly certain that something like a whipping would never be pleasurable for me. My Master doesn't have any plans to break out the bullwhip anytime soon, but I've mentioned in passing that if he ever wanted to whip me, I'd want him to feel what it was like first. Not because I want him whipped or anything, but so he'd have some idea of how painful it would be for me. And even that might not apply because people process pain differently, too.

 

[Etoile]

I think that bolded part is part of what I was trying to get at. So, in your opinion, to classify oneself as submissive, what elements exactly need to be involved? Is it specific things: you need to do A, B, and C; or do you need to do 5 out of 10 things? (As if there's a checklist somewhere like in teen magazines... though somehow I think not)

Actually...
http://www.thebrc.net/check_list/default.htm
http://latches.webslaves.com/checklist.htm
http://www.ehbc.ca/resources/checklist.php
http://www.soulshaven.f2s.com/newchecklist/printerfriendly.php3
http://www.asubmissivesjourney.com/bdsm_checklist.html
http://www.darkefamily.com/html/bdsm_checklist.html
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1008858/filling_out_a_fetish_kink_bdsm_checklist.html
http://www.netscum.org/bdsmchklst/

 

[Valleyl81]

Actually...
http://www.thebrc.net/check_list/default.htm
http://latches.webslaves.com/checklist.htm
http://www.ehbc.ca/resources/checklist.php
http://www.soulshaven.f2s.com/newchecklist/printerfriendly.php3
http://www.asubmissivesjourney.com/bdsm_checklist.html
http://www.darkefamily.com/html/bdsm_checklist.html
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1008858/filling_out_a_fetish_kink_bdsm_checklist.html
http://www.netscum.org/bdsmchklst/

Thanks... I have seen those kind of things before, but that's not exactly what I was thinking. I was thinking something more along the lines of "you're a submissive if you've checked 10 of these items, dominant if you checked these other items, and vanilla if you've checked less than 10" or something along those lines (there's still the issue of how do you know for sure if you've never done any of the things on the list?). But then there's the question of does that just mean you're a top/bottom rather than a dom/sub? Isn't it possible to be a sub who tops or a dom who likes to bottom? Or someone who's neither sub nor dom and likes or is interested in some of those things anyway?

 

[Etoile]

Thanks... I have seen those kind of things before, but that's not exactly what I was thinking. I was thinking something more along the lines of "you're a submissive if you've checked 10 of these items, dominant if you checked these other items, and vanilla if you've checked less than 10" or something along those lines (there's still the issue of how do you know for sure if you've never done any of the things on the list?). But then there's the question of does that just mean you're a top/bottom rather than a dom/sub? Isn't it possible to be a sub who tops or a dom who likes to bottom? Or someone who's neither sub nor dom and likes or is interested in some of those things anyway?

I was more just pointing out that yes, there are indeed checklists!

It sounds like what you're looking for is the answer to: "What is a TRUE submissive?" As anyone around Lit will tell you...there's no such thing. There is no one "true way" to submissiveness, or dominance for that matter. There's no list that says you must do x y and z to be a submissive; there's no cutoff point at which a person crosses a line and may now be called a submissive. There's no overarching body that confers the title of submissive. You either feel you are a submissive all the time, some of the time, or none of the time...or you don't.

I know it would be nice to have an easy way to define people, but kind of like with sexual orientation, you have to take people at their word. If I tell you I'm a lesbian but once a month I drive 100 miles and go to some bar and pick up a guy, what does that make me? Your first answer might be "bisexual" but you'd be answering too quickly. Maybe I am a hardcore dyke and active in gay rights, but sometimes I like dick - not men, just dick. Maybe I like reassuring myself that members of the opposite sex still find me attractive. Maybe I just like rebelling against what a lesbian is "supposed" to be. Without knowing me, you can't tell me if I'm lesbian, bisexual, or just plain weird. My actions do not dictate my identity, *I* do. I know all the pieces to my puzzle and I know what the finished picture looks like.

It's the same for dome and subs, really. Maybe you are a total pain slut, serve your Master 24/7, and live for praise and spankings...but once in a while you like to be a bad girl and act sassy. Are you less of a submissive? No, you're still a submissive, you're just being bratty for the moment. Or maybe you're a Dom who is in complete control and never wavers in your dominance, but sometimes you like to be whipped as an emotional release. It doesn't make you less of a Dom, it makes you YOU.

Some people will try to tell you otherwise - a Dom never submits, a slave never has control, blah blah. What if a slave is responsible for the Master's finances? If he asks her to make sure he doesn't spend too much on dining out, and she says "Sir, are you sure you want to order Chinese tonight, we've already eaten out three times this week" does that mean she's in charge now? Is she just topping from the bottom, or actually doing what she was told?

There is no one path to submissiveness or dominance. Only you know what you are and make that decision. Or maybe you reject it altogether and decide you're an equal opportunity switch who tops sometimes and bottoms sometimes. Maybe you are submissive to women but dominate other men. It's all up to you and your personal preferences and feelings. YOU choose.

 

[Adakgirl]

Excellent post Etoile... I will add this just for the heck of it.

A submissive is a person who submits or potentially submits to another. Within a BDSM-only context, submissive is sometimes synonymous with bottom. Submissives can vary in how serious they take their position, training, and situation. Reasons for this include relief from responsibility, being the object of attention and affection, gaining a sense of security, showing off endurance or working through issues of shame.

A dominant is a person who exercises the power to take control of a person or situation through usage of some means (such as physical, mental, financial, etc.) on a regular basis; the gender specific titles being dom for a man, domme or dominatrix for a woman. Reasons for this include demonstrating skill and power, having ownership of another person, being the object of affection and devotion.

In most power exchange as referred to in a BDSM scene, there are limitations on the power the dominant has over the submissive, include things such as safewords, time limits, or explicitly negotiated understandings of what is allowed.

copied and pasted from the dictionary

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

A most excellent answer Etoile *bows to you* For me, being a submissive is a very natural thing- so much so that in hindsight, I think fighting my previous owner on the fact that he wanted me to own someone so that I could see what it meant to be Dominant was a subconscious thing.

I cannot see Dominating another person, man or woman. Have I tried it? Yes and I feel like I did such a lousy job at it that in the end we both wound up miserable though he would tell you that it wasn't me, it was just that he was not in the proper head space at the time.

I am a natural submissive. My pleasure doesn't come from the sexual act, but from the serving that I do to please someone else- making myself available for my Masters whim and enjoyment, without reservation. Thats what gets me off. There's nothing more erotic to me than kneeling by Masters side, naked and silent, just there. Perhaps listening to him talk, or just laying my head on his thigh, waiting to pleasure him in some way. And in a lot of ways, me just kneeling by his side is his pleasure.

Like Etoile said, it's all about *YOU* what makes you happy and at peace with yourself. No book or movie or even checklist can give you that answer, it has to come from someplace deep within you where the true strength of your character lies. The place where only you can decide what is the best route for you.

I was more just pointing out that yes, there are indeed checklists!

It sounds like what you're looking for is the answer to: "What is a TRUE submissive?" As anyone around Lit will tell you...there's no such thing. There is no one "true way" to submissiveness, or dominance for that matter. There's no list that says you must do x y and z to be a submissive; there's no cutoff point at which a person crosses a line and may now be called a submissive. There's no overarching body that confers the title of submissive. You either feel you are a submissive all the time, some of the time, or none of the time...or you don't.

I know it would be nice to have an easy way to define people, but kind of like with sexual orientation, you have to take people at their word. If I tell you I'm a lesbian but once a month I drive 100 miles and go to some bar and pick up a guy, what does that make me? Your first answer might be "bisexual" but you'd be answering too quickly. Maybe I am a hardcore dyke and active in gay rights, but sometimes I like dick - not men, just dick. Maybe I like reassuring myself that members of the opposite sex still find me attractive. Maybe I just like rebelling against what a lesbian is "supposed" to be. Without knowing me, you can't tell me if I'm lesbian, bisexual, or just plain weird. My actions do not dictate my identity, *I* do. I know all the pieces to my puzzle and I know what the finished picture looks like.

It's the same for dome and subs, really. Maybe you are a total pain slut, serve your Master 24/7, and live for praise and spankings...but once in a while you like to be a bad girl and act sassy. Are you less of a submissive? No, you're still a submissive, you're just being bratty for the moment. Or maybe you're a Dom who is in complete control and never wavers in your dominance, but sometimes you like to be whipped as an emotional release. It doesn't make you less of a Dom, it makes you YOU.

Some people will try to tell you otherwise - a Dom never submits, a slave never has control, blah blah. What if a slave is responsible for the Master's finances? If he asks her to make sure he doesn't spend too much on dining out, and she says "Sir, are you sure you want to order Chinese tonight, we've already eaten out three times this week" does that mean she's in charge now? Is she just topping from the bottom, or actually doing what she was told?

There is no one path to submissiveness or dominance. Only you know what you are and make that decision. Or maybe you reject it altogether and decide you're an equal opportunity switch who tops sometimes and bottoms sometimes. Maybe you are submissive to women but dominate other men. It's all up to you and your personal preferences and feelings. YOU choose.

 

[Valleyl81]

So the general idea that I'm getting is that I can be whatever I want and call myself whatever I want without needing to have any sort of proof to back it up?

Excellent post Etoile... I will add this just for the heck of it.

A submissive is a person who submits or potentially submits to another. Within a BDSM-only context, submissive is sometimes synonymous with bottom. Submissives can vary in how serious they take their position, training, and situation. Reasons for this include relief from responsibility, being the object of attention and affection, gaining a sense of security, showing off endurance or working through issues of shame.

A dominant is a person who exercises the power to take control of a person or situation through usage of some means (such as physical, mental, financial, etc.) on a regular basis; the gender specific titles being dom for a man, domme or dominatrix for a woman. Reasons for this include demonstrating skill and power, having ownership of another person, being the object of affection and devotion.

In most power exchange as referred to in a BDSM scene, there are limitations on the power the dominant has over the submissive, include things such as safewords, time limits, or explicitly negotiated understandings of what is allowed.

copied and pasted from the dictionary

I find it interesting that there are reasons listed in these definitions. I wonder, do you (that's a plural you to anyone who wants to answer) think that these reasons really are the most common reasons? Do people usually have active, conscious reasons for being a submissive or dominant?

 

[missy_me]

.....

 

[00Syd]

I wonder, do you (that's a plural you to anyone who wants to answer) think that these reasons really are the most common reasons? Do people usually have active, conscious reasons for being a submissive or dominant?

Some people do. I don't. Some people speculate that they enjoy submission for reason X, Y, or Z but I don't know why I enjoy it, I just do. I am submissive in the same way that I am straight, It's just part of who I am without any rhyme or reason to it.

 

[Valleyl81]

Do you feel a need to have proof to back up that you are straigh/gay/bi/queer? What would that be?

Well, that's always been pretty clear-cut for me. Judging from Etoile's post above, apparently it's not so clear for everyone. But for me, I'm a woman who likes men and has absolutely no sexual interest in women; therefore, I'm straight. Easy answer. There seem to be pretty clear definitions of what is straight vs. gay vs. bi: are you interested in people of your own gender, the opposite gender, or both? So while I understand that those lines can be blurry for a variety of reasons for different people, they never were for me so I never really thought about it.

It's not so much proof (that was probably a bad word choice), but more a standard definition. The more I read, the more broad definitions become and the harder it is to figure it out. Would you be a sub if you were attracted only to dominant men, but didn't have other subbie thoughts (whatever those are)? Or is there a mindset, a belief, an activity, something that is the defining characteristic?

 

[Valleyl81]

Some people do. I don't. Some people speculate that they enjoy submission for reason X, Y, or Z but I don't know why I enjoy it, I just do. I am submissive in the same way that I am straight, It's just part of who I am without any rhyme or reason to it.

So how or when did you know you were submissive? Even if you're someone who has "always known", what led you to give yourself that label?

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

I find it interesting that there are reasons listed in these definitions. I wonder, do you (that's a plural you to anyone who wants to answer) think that these reasons really are the most common reasons? Do people usually have active, conscious reasons for being a submissive or dominant?

Let me begin by saying that I am not jumping on you Valley. Your questions are all valid ones however, does everything in life have to have a reason?

When you first fell in love, was there reasoning behind it or just a deep sense of longing for the person?

When you wake up in the morning and do the thing that makes you happiest, is there a reason behind it or is it just deep sense of longing to do it? A passion?

As a submissive/slave/pyl/Dominant/Master/PYL, whatever term you want to use, there isn't necessarily a reasoning behind it, but there is longing. I long to serve in whatever capacity makes my Master happy whether it be bathing him, clipping his toe nails or giving him the best cock sucking of his day- I exist to serve Master, that is my longing.

There's no reasoning behind it. No rules. No checklists to match myself against. Just pure unadulterated longing.

 

[Valleyl81]

Let me begin by saying that I am not jumping on you Valley. Your questions are all valid ones however, does everything in life have to have a reason?

When you first fell in love, was there reasoning behind it or just a deep sense of longing for the person?

When you wake up in the morning and do the thing that makes you happiest, is there a reason behind it or is it just deep sense of longing to do it? A passion?

As a submissive/slave/pyl/Dominant/Master/PYL, whatever term you want to use, there isn't necessarily a reasoning behind it, but there is longing. I long to serve in whatever capacity makes my Master happy whether it be bathing him, clipping his toe nails or giving him the best cock sucking of his day- I exist to serve Master, that is my longing.

There's no reasoning behind it. No rules. No checklists to match myself against. Just pure unadulterated longing.

Don't worry, I don't feel like you're jumping on me, and I'm very appreciative of all the answers you and others are willing to give me

I agree with you, I don't think everything has to have a reason. That's part of why I asked that question; seeing that someone felt the need to list reasons within a definition seemed odd to me, but I wanted to get others' opinions. A lot of people compare it to being straight/gay/bi... is there a reason for that? None that I've ever heard of, it's just what you are. If there are reasons for it, it seems like a more active choice, or at least something that is changeable and influenced by others or your environment; if there are no reasons, then it's more an ingrained part of you.

 

[missy_me]

.....