How can a subbie tell real friends from users?

[Betticus]

This subject came up in an offline conversation but the topic matter should really be discussed because subbies are so giving, they can easily fall into a situation where their friends are taking and not giving back.

My take on it is a real friend will be there for you, go out of their way to spend time with you, include you in activities, not air out your private issues, help you hide the bodies, etc....

What are your thoughts and experiences with people who are "real" friends?

 

[HarlotMinx]

This subject came up in an offline conversation but the topic matter should really be discussed because subbies are so giving, they can easily fall into a situation where their friends are taking and not giving back.

My take on it is a real friend will be there for you, go out of their way to spend time with you, include you in activities, not air out your private issues, help you hide the bodies, etc....

What are your thoughts and experiences with people who are "real" friends?

Pssssh are you serious? The people who really want to be your friends have candy!

Um... on a slightly more serious note. I'm not sure that subs are any more susceptible to users than Dom/mes are. Knowing when to say no to people seems to be tough for a lot of people, I know moon has trouble with it. Plenty of people have a innate desire to please others and it's a trait that Dom/mes are hardly bereft of.

 

[graceanne]

Users want to use you. Friends want you to be their friend.

 

[Wyldfire]

It requires an ability to seperate Kink from state as it were. A Sub, unless she or he's in a long term lifestyle situation has to be able to come out of subspace to deal with the rest of the world. Otherwise they earn another name. Victim.

 

[Kikori]

Users want to use you. Friends want you to be their friend.

If it was that simple, this topic wouldn't exist. Some users pretend to be friends so the sub will believe they're cared for.

For one, a submissive could not be submissive, and instead just be apathetic or less giving. People who used the submissive will see the change and either beg for submission again or just leave, friends will wonder what's going on and probably miss the more submissive side of said subbie, but stick around long enough to learn later that it was a test against users.

For two, a submissive could ask what they're being given... Are they given the pleasure of pleasing? Or are they given the pleasure of being pleased? Being submissive to someone who cares usually results in feeling needed, comfortable, usually safe, and loved. Being submissive to someone who uses the submission usually results in feeling needed for a lot of things, sometimes trivial or awkward. There's a huge difference here.

 

[Harmony_1985]

I've had one friend screw me over. She was my best friend until we hit VI form and she went off to a grammar school VI form in another town nearby.

I became a 2nd class citizen and only got called on when none of her other friends were available. Her leaving my 18th birthday card and present at my place of work 4 weeks late was the straw that broke the camel's back. I told her to go fark herself at that point.

I might be submissive, but I'm no doormat.

 

[lilylicious]

Plenty of people have a innate desire to please others and it's a trait that Dom/mes are hardly bereft of.

This is very very true. However, maybe it's possible that Dominants are better able to channel that "fuck you" aspect of their personality and use it when the time is right. Then again a lot of submissives I know have dominant personality characteristics and though they might not ever treat their Dominant disrespectfully, they would never be someone else's doormat.

 

[HarlotMinx]

I might be submissive, but I'm no doormat.

Well said! *applauds* That's what I was getting at, just because many subs have giving natures it does not make them any more likely to be "duped" by people wishing to take advantage of that trait. First off you often see that many submissives are not universally subservient to everyone. Nor is that desire to submit blinding. I guess a subbie would tell a friend from user just like a dom/me would. I'm sorry, I guess I'm not understanding the title.

Then again a lot of submissives I know have dominant personality characteristics and though they might not ever treat their Dominant disrespectfully, they would never be someone else's doormat.

I don't having dominant traits would equate to disrespect, but I agree with the gist of what you said in that sentence. Now, I admit I've seen a lot of subs get used by their dominants and allow it with the assumption that it's supposed to be that way (and honestly I'm not in a position to judge them or their relationship.... not to say I don't occasionally), it's a very gray line, especially in TPEs. Ultimately, just because a Dom/me is responsible for their sub's physical/mental health, it doesn't negate the subs responsibility to themselves.

It's like that classic question I've heard Dom/mes ask "would you jump off a cliff if I ordered you to?" and the equally classic answer "As much as I know I would, I know that you would never order it of me". Moon and I talked at length about this and found the answer unsatisfactory. You have to assume you never know a person. Even people you know your entire life will surprise you or prove to be someone you didn't know. And barring that, people change. I think people (subs included) absolutely have to be able to take a step back and examine the situation. Of course doing that is a lot harder than saying it.

-poppet

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I do give too much of myself and sometimes I regret my generosity. I would rather regret being too generous than being too mean however. I used to be taken advantage of more but as I have matured and grown cynical I've become less susceptible to other people's sob stories and manipulative tactics. I've cast off a few 'friends' in the past few years who I simply don't miss at all.

 

[ataxia.girl]

This thread makes me realize when it comes to friends, especially girlfriends i'm just not really that into it. i have quite a few, what i consider to be, "good friends" but the emotional attachment is really pretty one way. i'm just not emotionally invested with them. i can be quite generous and giving in those relationships but i think i never feel "screwed over" because i don't care that much whether the relationship continues.

i'm also okay with the idea that all kinds of relationships aren't equal. i may be the giver with this friend and the taker with another and i'm comfortable with that.

There was a time i wasn't very good at saying no when anyone needed anything. i'm much better at it now. i don't need EVERYONE to like me anymore in order to feel worthwhile.

 

[Kajira Callista]

This subject came up in an offline conversation but the topic matter should really be discussed because subbies are so giving, they can easily fall into a situation where their friends are taking and not giving back.

My take on it is a real friend will be there for you, go out of their way to spend time with you, include you in activities, not air out your private issues, help you hide the bodies, etc....

What are your thoughts and experiences with people who are "real" friends?

sounds like you are assuming that submissive women are to stupid to distinguish between being used and having a friend.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

sounds like you are assuming that submissive women are to stupid to distinguish between being used and having a friend.

Maybe not too stupid, but sometimes too trusting. But then again, that can apply to PYL-types, too. And then on the third hand (?), there are people who have made a lifestyle out of appearing to be friends, and manipulating others into doing what *they* want. All of us, any of us, can be victimized by that type of person - pyl, PYL or PyL.

To me (and YMMV), a "real friend" is one who can and will listen to your issues, not sigh the forty-eleventh time they hear how evil your boss (etc.) is, and can and will make you laugh - or at least smile a tad - when you're down... and for whom you would and will do the same.

 

[YourCaptor]

A friend is a friend.

A user is the one they wake up next too.

 

[HarlotMinx]

sounds like you are assuming that submissive women are to stupid to distinguish between being used and having a friend.

Yeah but I don't think he made any reference to women, just subs as a whole hun. Nor do I think it had anything to do with stupidity, anyone can be over trusting and still quite intelligent. I thought about this a bit more, I think some subs go into the lifestyle to have others take responsibility from them (I know plenty), those are the types who tend to be prone to trusting the wrong people. Not that others can't but just less likely.

-poppet

 

[FurryFury]

A friend who will bail you out (or be in jail with you saying, "Boy that was the shit."), at 3 a.m. is very different from most friends. Those other, beta friends serve a purpose too, as do acquaintances.

I think all relationships are forms of using and being used and I don't mean that in a bad way. It's only bad if we or they are not getting enough of what they want and are giving too much of what we don't wish to give.

I just see relationships we are in as those we choose in order to get certain things out of them. If we don't get something out of them or we wouldn't bother with them. It could be things that others would disdain but that we personally want or need. I just don't think putting all friendships to such rigorous standards is realistic.

 

[Xelebes]

Most of my friends are bit distant from me so no one really has the opportunity to use me. It's not an optimal situation, but it will do for now.

 

[Netzach]

sounds like you are assuming that submissive women are to stupid to distinguish between being used and having a friend.

This was kind of my first response. My answer would be "the same way big badass Dominant men do."

We all have systems of red flags and litmus tests and analysis dealing with other people. I've known dominants who are really bad at that as well as anyone else. I have few 3 am friends and I am a 3 am friend to but a few people. It doesn't mean I don't like other friends, but my expectations aren't large there, the level of cashing in favor isn't very high.

 

[graceanne]

If it was that simple, this topic wouldn't exist. Some users pretend to be friends so the sub will believe they're cared for.

A user who's pretending to be a friend will still be using you. They're just nice while they're doing it. A good way to figure out who's users and who isn't is by how they respond to you when YOU need help. Users will suddenly stop answering phone calls or will suddenly be busy doing something else. Friends return the favor.

 

[Kajira Callista]

A friend who will bail you out (or be in jail with you saying, "Boy that was the shit."), at 3 a.m. is very different from most friends. Those other, beta friends serve a purpose too, as do acquaintances.

I think all relationships are forms of using and being used and I don't mean that in a bad way. It's only bad if we or they are not getting enough of what they want and are giving too much of what we don't wish to give.

I just see relationships we are in as those we choose in order to get certain things out of them. If we don't get something out of them or we wouldn't bother with them. It could be things that others would disdain but that we personally want or need. I just don't think putting all friendships to such rigorous standards is realistic.

I like this. it needs to go in the calendar but i dont know how to do it.

 

[graceanne]

I think all relationships are forms of using and being used and I don't mean that in a bad way.

I noticed this cause KC quoted it. LOL That's what I get for skimming threads.

Anyway, that's friendship to a T. Being there for eachother. Letting your friend 'use' you, and knowing that if the need comes up you can 'use' your friend. The issue is when it becomes one sided.

 

[Kikori]

A user who's pretending to be a friend will still be using you. They're just nice while they're doing it. A good way to figure out who's users and who isn't is by how they respond to you when YOU need help. Users will suddenly stop answering phone calls or will suddenly be busy doing something else. Friends return the favor.

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. Someone who uses others will pretend to be nice, thus it's harder to distinguish friendship from being used; if this wasn't true, it would be so easy to tell the low-lifes from the kind people that this topic wouldn't be necessary.

 

[graceanne]

Exactly, that's what I'm saying. Someone who uses others will pretend to be nice, thus it's harder to distinguish friendship from being used; if this wasn't true, it would be so easy to tell the low-lifes from the kind people that this topic wouldn't be necessary.

It might be difficult to distinguish for short terms, but if you've been 'friends' with a 'user' for long term, then you are being deliberately blind. And honestly, that's usually the truth. The use-ee makes excuses for the user. "Oh, s/he's under stress. S/he is so busy right now." Etc. The use-ee needs to take responsibility and open his/her eyes. What's the saying? Fool me once, shame you you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

That said, I have some users in my life. I let them stay in my life, knowing they are users. The difference is that I know that they are not my friends and I do not count on them. I continue to serve them because I feel that is what Jesus would want me to do. (It depends on the situation. Sometimes I choose not to serve them, because I think that by helping I'm making things worse. It depends on the situation.) The point is knowing who is the user and who is the friend.

Not sure? Ask your friend to help you move. I guarantee that the user will be busy doing something else or will agree then not show up or agree, show up and do squat but eat your food.

 

[Homburg]

This issue has popped up in MIS' life recently, in a painful way. She has had to reevaluate some friendships that she thought were significantly stronger. She felt rather used in the process. It sucked, frankly, and I felt awful for her.

The advice I gave her was to look critically at the relationship. How often does a person ask you for "favours", a heling hand, do they rely on you? If you are sick or busy and can't help, does that person get cranky with you? If you ask them for help, are they too busy, or does it seem like a hassle?

Then you have a friend that is always there for you, rarely asks for favours/help/whatever, and makes time to just hang out with you.

Hell, I had it happen to me. A couple of years ago, I had a huge social circle. Not surprising, as I was the organizer and motivator behind the social activity that we all took part in. Well, at one point, I decided it was too much, and I'd had enough, so I stopped doing it, turned the reins over to someone else (that almost immediately botched the job causing the group to fall apart). The fallout was educational, as it was interesting to see who friends were and who were just users. For the most, I was correct in my identifications prior to the end of it, but there were surprises.

And, yes, big badass male dominants get used too. People get used, and your orientation, top, bottom, sub, dom, gay, straight, bi switch, just doesn't matter. People are people.

 

[graceanne]

. . . look critically at the relationship. How often does a person ask you for "favours", a heling hand, do they rely on you? If you are sick or busy and can't help, does that person get cranky with you? If you ask them for help, are they too busy, or does it seem like a hassle?

Exactly. There are signs that they're users. People tend to make excuses or ignore those signs and then are hurt when they get used.

Quite frankly what pisses me off more about confused users with friends is than that I was deliberately blind and set myself up to be hurt. There are ALWAYS signs about the users.

Of course, on the other hand, are you the user? Do you always ask for help and never give it? If your friend helps you ever single time, and then can't the one time, you have no room for pissyness or accusing them of being users.

 

[FurryFury]

I agree with you.

Frankly, you made me think and realize I practically never ask for help from friends. (My husband and kids I ask for help but rarely, no one else.)

I might ask opinions but asking for help is anathema to me. I like to see myself as a capable person who can deal with my own shit. I may have a pretty serious "thing" about being independent too.

What usually happens is that I like to use my friends for brainstorming and sounding boards. Sometimes they offer their help and sometimes but very rarely. it actually works out, our schedules are in sync and I take it.

Mostly what I want in a friendship is just relaxed company, mutual admiration, hanging out, breathing and just talking to another adult. LOL.

I hadn't really thought about this before. I do know I make a conscious effort to shut up and to stop trying to entertain my friends sometimes. I am getting better at not filling every silence and just letting them be and share what they will.

Oh and another thing, I don't want to know, what you don't want to tell me. I won't pry. Share what you will but don't expect me to excavate whatever treasure you've buried. I ask nothing but what you would freely give me. That's sort of my motto I guess.

Exactly. There are signs that they're users. People tend to make excuses or ignore those signs and then are hurt when they get used.

Quite frankly what pisses me off more about confused users with friends is than that I was deliberately blind and set myself up to be hurt. There are ALWAYS signs about the users.

Of course, on the other hand, are you the user? Do you always ask for help and never give it? If your friend helps you ever single time, and then can't the one time, you have no room for pissyness or accusing them of being users.