Transgression as a tool

[TheRedChamber]

I don't think the definition requires that you know the artist's motivation.

Well, transgressive is a label usually applied by artists themselves. Critics tend to just call it 'disgusting'

 

[NotWise]

Anyone who publishes in I/T here could be considered a transgressive artist, and a lot of people would call it 'disgusting' -- even people who explore other transgressive topics.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Transgression as a tool​

I tried to use transgression to open a can of tuna once, didn't work.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Taboo is when society says you shouldn't do something; transgression is when someone does it anyway.

There's an allure to breaking rules, especially when someone gets away with it and no real harm is done. Different people will be interested in different transgressions - I have zero interest in incest, but most of my stories have a character managing to shed a respectable exterior and be a total slut, for example, it to mention the queer and kinky content. I recall a chap telling me that it was great that laws had improved, but being gay back when it was illegal to act on had been so much more fun (and he'd been imprisoned for it in the 60s...)

 

[SimonDoom]

From Oxford Languages:

1. involving a violation of moral or social boundaries.

Do you need more than that?

I think this is basically correct, but I would add a wrinkle to it to respond to TheRedChamber's point about Agatha Christie books.

A transgressive story is not one in which illegal, immoral, or social boundary-crossing activities occur, but in which they are endorsed, or empathized with, or in which the reader gets some sort of thrill that they occur.

A story about a cop hunting a serial killer isn't, by itself, transgressive, but if the story is told from the point of view of the serial killer and we are led to sympathize with him or thrill to his killing in some way, then it's transgressive.

Leave It To Beaver is not transgressive. It exists in a simple moral universe where the parents are wise and moral. Married with Children is transgressive. The parents are foolish, selfish, lazy, and horny. Seinfeld is transgressive. It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia is transgressive.

In an erotic story, the mere existence of a nonconsensual sex activity is not transgressive. But if the story is set up so we get an erotic thrill from the existence of that activity, then it's transgressive.

I think by this definition a great many stories at Literotica are transgressive, and they feed a deep-seated hunger that people have for these stories. People want to fantasize about being "naughty." They like to fantasize about being under the sexual control of another, or running through the streets naked, or having uncontrollable sexual urges, or sleeping with a relative. That's what's transgressive.

 

[SimonDoom]

I tried to use transgression to open a can of tuna once, didn't work.

I used to prefer stick; now I opt for automatic transgression.

 

[yowser]

Taboo is when society says you shouldn't do something; transgression is when someone does it anyway.

Thanks for this, more or less where I was going with the idea.

Sexual thoughts and behavior tend to be loaded with a lot of extra baggage, which can come from any one of a dozen directions: your town's 'community standards,' family expectations, religion, etc. The transgressive aspects can come from many directions, which can overlap. And transgressive characters can be vastly interesting. 'Oh, they really shouldn't do that! But do you suppose they will...?'

A famous Mark Twain quote, when asked about the hereafter, heaven or hell, he responded that he preferred the former for the climate, the latter for the company. The rule breakers are inherently interesting.

Boundary crossing is inevitably appealing. What will happen on the other side of the crossing? Is this really a good idea? And sexual arenas are a minefield of boundaries of every variety. And the thoughts and fantasies we develop (I know I am in good company here) do startle. 'Oh what a lovely person I saw at the farmer's market - wouldn't they look superb undressed. Maybe with ropes around their wrists? Or...' fill in your blank. You know it's a troublesome brand of thought, and you really ought not to be thinking it, but sure would be nice to indulge that little bit of imagination anyway. Characters that wrestle with their 'conscience' however you want to define that, make for appealing reading.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think this is basically correct, but I would add a wrinkle to it to respond to TheRedChamber's point about Agatha Christie books.

A transgressive story is not one in which illegal, immoral, or social boundary-crossing activities occur, but in which they are endorsed, or empathized with, or in which the reader gets some sort of thrill that they occur.

That's reasonable (though I might suggest "the average reader"; everything is somebody's fetish). But I'd note that by that standard, several of Christie's books and other stories are transgressive. See e.g. Murder on the Orient Express, The Mirror Crack'd, Curtain, Traitor's Hands, And Then There Were None. Murder is portrayed as sometimes excusable and occasionally even necessary when the law is unable to deliver justice, and some of her protagonists are villains clever enough to get away with murder. (Traitor's Hands had to have a "crime doesn't pay" ending tacked on when it was adapted as Witness for the Prosecution.)

 

[SimonDoom]

That's reasonable (though I might suggest "the average reader"; everything is somebody's fetish). But I'd note that by that standard, several of Christie's books and other stories are transgressive. See e.g. Murder on the Orient Express, The Mirror Crack'd, Curtain, Traitor's Hands, And Then There Were None. Murder is portrayed as sometimes excusable and occasionally even necessary when the law is unable to deliver justice, and some of her protagonists are villains clever enough to get away with murder. (Traitor's Hands had to have a "crime doesn't pay" ending tacked on when it was adapted as Witness for the Prosecution.)

I knew SOMEBODY was going to mention Murder on the Orient Express! I haven't read the others.

 

[AG31]

Since the OP was focusing on erotica (literature to engender an erotic response), I think which literature counts as transgressive is completely up to the reader. Do they find the particular kind of sex titilating or arousing, because of its forbidenness, or not? Some do, some don't.

 

[SimonDoom]

Since the OP was focusing on erotica (literature to engender an erotic response), I think which literature counts as transgressive is completely up to the reader. Do they find the particular kind of sex titilating or arousing, because of its forbidenness, or not? Some do, some don't.

Yes, and it's not just what you find titillating, but what you personally find taboo. To people of some religious backgrounds, a woman walking down the street exposing her bare arms is taboo and transgressive. To others, it's not.

 

[XerXesXu]

Since the OP was focusing on erotica (literature to engender an erotic response), I think which literature counts as transgressive is completely up to the reader. Do they find the particular kind of sex titilating or arousing, because of its forbidenness, or not? Some do, some don't.

The OP was enquiring about 'transgression' as interpreted by the writer:

'For me, I think since my very first conscious thoughts, there's always been an allure for the forbidden.'

I've never felt any allure for the forbidden. I do what I want to do. My suspicion is, that those writers who feel petty erotic transgressions are hot, express a reaction to a culturally repressed upbringing. Those who are turned on by transgressions, on a grand scale, probably suffer from severe personality disorders.

I fall within neither group.

Much the same would apply to readers.

 

[VallesMarineris]

From Oxford Languages:

1. involving a violation of moral or social boundaries.

Do you need more than that?

Wikipedia gives a useful definition of transgressive art with an important qualifier:

Transgressive art is art that aims to outrage or cause a reaction from the observer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgressive_art

This definition distinguishes art that includes a transgressive act (for example, a murder mystery) from one that attempts to portray that act as normal, or even relishes in it (such as Brett Easton Ellis's American Psycho).

The moral landscape is not smooth and level, and readers on this site especially are looking for stories that cross into territories that most individuals in our culture would be put off by. But even our readers can slice and dice their own moral sensibilities into shreds that would embarrass a gerrymandering politician. (I'm looking at you, LW.)

The trick for most mainstream art is to show transgressive acts (and thus titillate the audience) but make sure the bad, transgressive villain gets his in the end (preferably through some form of poetic justice). Thus James Bond can drink like a fish, fuck every babe he encounters, and shoot guards and henchmen like they're targets in a shooting range-- but he doesn't (usually) kill the super-villain. Dr. No falls into the reactor pool. Goldfinger gets sucked out of an airplane window he's accidentally shattered in a gunfight. Largo gets a speargun in his neck courtesy of his mistress. The list goes on. In fact, here it is, with their various, never kind, fates:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_James_Bond_villains

We could continue with endless examples (at least I could) of the different ways transgression is used in art. Think about Nabokov's Lolita, or that remake of Ghostbusters that got panned because the lead characters were women. A friend once pointed out that she could tell immediately who the murderer was in a TV mystery: it was the (slightly) slutty female character. And why is John Wick a hero? Because he loves dogs?