Shame and Humiliation

[xssve]

No, no. I think you're exactly right, and I like the symmetry too.

Personally, the word "bimbo" doesn't push any buttons, but imply that I'm stupid or ineffectual or not worth your effort, and I'll scratch your eyes out. I think a lot of women must associate all that (and maybe more) with that one little word, hence their ire.

It's a silly stupid word, I had no idea it had this much power - I haven't even heard it for years till now, not since the Seventies, it's really more of a Fifties archetype, promiscuous or sexualized women in the sities were... women.

"Dumb Blonde" jokes sort of crowded it out after that, I suppose that gave everybody an abstract target to mock. I never told Dumb Blonde jokes either, most simply aren't that funny, recycled ethnic jokes, but you couldn't get away from them there for a while, half the time it would be women telling them.

Believe me I've been through all the PC business, girls, chicks, etc., etc., woman/women is the only word that was safe for many, many years.

Bitch isn't even a part of my working vocabulary, neither is slut, or anything else, I say girls, and chicks sometimes, babes, because "women" get's a bit stiff after a while, but it's pretty hard in a thread about labels for women not to bring these words up, and to simply accuse anybody who doesn't have your one sided interpretation of it as misogynistic, is political at best, pathologically paranoid always being a distinct possibility.

I never insisted my interpretation was the only one, in fact it isn't really an interpretation, but an observation, trying to flesh it out a bit, examine the facets - any one sided characterization is going to lack depth, and leaving it as "derogatory", period, is limiting yourself to one dimensional stereotypes.

Ultimately, for me, this thread is about character development, story dynamics, etc. - a manipulating bimbo is way more interesting than a one dimensional inflatable doll - one can manipulate for mutual benefit as well, i.e., there is functional manipulation as well as dysfunctional - there are plenty of guys who don't mind being manipulated in the least and likely find it preferable to getting their balls cut off; subtle manipulation is actually more sociable.

 

[xssve]

Try not to hate, xssve. You will be healthier for it.

Get a life.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Get a life.

You're still hating xssve. All it does is raise your blood pressure. Please stop.

 

[xssve]

In short, it often takes smart woman to play dumb, and it's a dumb man who let's that go to his head.

Again, a lot of that has to do with traditional patrimonial politics in which the economic emphasis is on male status, i.e., women's status is traditionally a function of her husbands status, you are the wife of a doctor, etc., and women's roles w/regard to status were largely confined to being a good housekeeper, community service, entertaining, etc. Playing dumb was a way to get a man, it's a form of flattery, and often highly calculated.

Since women have entered the workforce en masse, it is entirely possible now for a woman to gain independent status, whether it be as a professional or as a working class schlub.

Really, all I care about in terms of my day to day life, is whether you have a professional attitude or not, and playing sexual politics is distinctly unprofessional.

 

[xssve]

You're still hating xssve. All it does is raise your blood pressure. Please stop.

Troll.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The bimbo-can? God, no!

But you know, something's occurred to me: The thing men are most worried about losing in sex is their masculinity, their feeling of sexual power and virility, their ability to get an erection and perform. This is, without exaggerating, probably the most important symbolic element in a man's life, the very core of his being, and the importance of this is something that a lot of women don't really understand or appreciate. Not needing to achieve and maintain an erection and having a different experience of sex, they tend to discount the importance of this to a man and can't understand why men make such a big fucking deal about it. It's just a little boner, they say. You can still have a wonderful and loving experience without it.

Yeah. Fat chance. With your whole sense of power and presence in the world gone.

I think maybe women (okay somewomen) have a similar overwhelming concern in sex though. I think somewomen seek to maintain their sense of self-respect and female integrity, or anti-bimboness at all costs. I think that, for a woman, becoming a bimbo or a whore is the worst thing that can happen to her, and is the emotional equivalent of a man's losing his masculinity.

And just like women can't understand why men find the loss of masculinity so horrifying, men can't understand why women find the concept of bimbohood so distasteful. Because men certainly have nothing against bimbos or whores. We kind of like them, in fact. They're always welcome at our parties. We can't understand what gets you so upset about the concept. For us, a bimbo is just a woman of easy virtue. We don't see the loss of self-respect and female integrity.

I think you're coming close.

But Doc-- "bimbo is not an attack on a woman's femininity. It doesn't have to do with her being able to get it up.

it's an comment on her intelligence and her capabilities. And it reinforces the idea that a feminine woman has no capability.

AS do so many feminine epithets, sadly, and when you use some of these words to describe a woman you are describing her mind. Or comparing her body and her mind and discarding the useless part.

And maybe if bimbo were one of four or five epithets out of the goddamn language that did this, it wouldn't be so ugly to me-- but it's a stand-in for hundreds.

In any case, that's the only way I can explain this antipathy to the word bimbo. It seems to be something deep and primal, much more extreme than if you'd been called motherfuckers or cocksuckers or anything else. It's nicely symmetric that a man's fear is that he'll lose the power of his body whereas the woman's fear is that she'll be reduced to nothing more than the power of her body, and maybe I'm making too much of it because of that symmetry, but what the hell.

Something like that, and many many women have no sense that their bodies have any power at all, so they are nothing but a little piece of shit after men have finished describing their inferior intellect.

If you take a good look, it's still not symmetrical, at least, not by your choices here;

"cocksucker" and "motherfucker" describe actions.

"Bimbo" describes a state of being.

Are there epithets that describe, in your mind, a man's essential intellectual inferiority by virtue of his gender?

 

[cloudy]

you identify very strongly as woman

Got to be the dumbest thing I've seen you post.

What do you identify as?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Troll.

Here let me post my initial comments, on this subject, again.

xssve I can't bring myself to even get angry at you anymore. All I feel now is pity. Apparently, your issues with your wife leaving you have left you ever so bitter and hateful.

You express this hate through your demeaning of women, though your sarcasm and, when you are backed into the corner by facts, your lashing out with cursing and personal attacks. I get that. You are a lonely old man that has no love in his life. I'm sorry that you feel you need to live that way.

It must be terrible to feel the need to be so defensive. It must be tiring too, when you perceive any little disagreement with your beliefs as a vicious attack that you must defend yourself from. So let me offer you a big hug xssve in hopes that you someday might stop hating.

See where I talked about the lashing out and personal attacks xssve? That's your hate saying that. Like I said before, that not healthy for you. It raises your blood pressue. It affects your ED. So, please try to stop your hating. Please? If only for your own sake?

 

[xssve]

C: A human being first, a professional, and if I have to, a man.

 

[cloudy]

C: A human being first, a professional, and if I have to, a man.

ah, you identify yourself as a man. You must have issues.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Please don't let the guy make this thread be about himself any longer, although I fully admit I let myself get sucked in-- I made a post that I'm actually hoping to get some thoughts and feedback on, just above.

 

[cloudy]

Please don't let the guy make this thread be about himself any longer, although I fully admit I let myself get sucked in-- I made a post that I'm actually hoping to get some thoughts and feedback on, just above.

I agree with your post to Zoot.

My issue with the word bimbo isn't with the feminine, it's with the assumption that along with feminine comes intellectual inferiority.

 

[xssve]

If you have something to say about the topic, by all means, spit it out.

I am a man, biologically, chromosomaly, and I like it just fine, I just don't happen to think it's the only meaningful defining characteristic that applies to me, as an individual.

There are many different stereotypical roles for "real men" as well: gentlemen, providers, athletes, sexual athletes, etc., etc., and every woman seems to have a very distinct idea what a "real man" is and disparages everyone that doesn't fit that mold, and these women often end up being called "bitches", etc.

Myself, I just scroll on past like I do with you most of the time, I have no time for hate, and more deserving targets than you if I did - this is just a lot of childish ankle biting by handful of attention whores.

Again, I've heard men put women down because they're "too fat", "too skinny", "ugly", "stupid", "vain" - "screeching bitch" - but I've never heard a man say a woman wasn't a real woman.

"Looks like a man" or accusations of penis envy, etc., butch, etc., is about as close as it gets, and that is as often an observation by a woman as a man.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So, one epithet that describes a man's state of being in a shameful way is; "Not A Real Man."

Can you think of any others?

 

[Safe_Bet]

If you have something to say about the topic, by all means, spit it out.

I am a man, biologically, chromosomaly, and I like it just fine, I just don't happen to think it's the only meaningful defining characteristic that applies to me, as an individual.

There are many different stereotypical roles for "real men" as well: gentlemen, providers, athletes, sexual athletes, etc., etc., and every woman seems to have a very distinct idea what a "real man" is and disparages everyone that doesn't fit that mold, and these women often end up being called "bitches", etc.

Myself, I just scroll on past like I do with you most of the time, I have no time for hate, and more deserving targets than you if I did - this is just a lot of childish ankle biting by handful of attention whores.

Again, I've heard men put women down because they're "too fat", "too skinny", "ugly", "stupid", "vain" - "screeching bitch" - but I've never heard a man say a woman wasn't a real woman.

"Looks like a man" or accusations of penis envy, etc., butch, etc., is about as close as it gets, and that is as often an observation by a woman as a man.

Hon, I wouldn't call you a "bitch" OR a "real man" because that would be using a stereotype and would be hateful. It would be like what you say about Cloudy, just because your wife that left you happened to be an American Indian, as well. It would be like the demeaning comments you make about Stella and myself because we have sex lives and you have difficulty with that because of your erectile dysfunction. I get all that. But, trust me, you life will be SO much better if you would just try not to hate so much. Really. Please try?

 

[xssve]

So, one epithet that describes a man's state of being in a shameful way is; "Not A Real Man."

Can you think of any others?

I'm convinced a lot of it actually has to do with body type less than social expectations, which are more fine grained and culturally influenced, i.e., a mesomorph is a "real man", an ectomorph is a "wimp", an endomorph is a "toad", etc., and this has to do with how the brain interprets visual cues and translates them into sexual attraction.

I got mocked a lot by the working class women in my hometown when I was younger, I'm very tall and my weight is distributed across more area but I've always been naturally strong. Other guys used to pick fights with me all the time, because I looked "easy". Other women were, and are, attracted the fact that I'm so tall, and I've noticed a similar dynamic with other tall ectomorphs, or "goons", as they're called in climbing circles, lol.

I'm more meso-ecto now, and lo and behold, I get more respect and less shit, people are fucking mindless.

Mesomorphs are perceived as being strong and fertile, "real men". Similarly, males are attracted to a hip to waist ratio of about .7, which indicates fertility, but may also focus on such things as breast size, how big or how small the ass is etc., and men, probably due to competition, appear to fetishize a much wider range of body types.

If you surf porn, there are websites devoted every kind of woman imaginable, every shape, size, age, and ethnicity, and very specific combination's thereof - I have never encountered a woman who has a fat guy fetish for example, although endomorphs often project security, i.e., physical dominance through sheer size.

The little guys, like the fat girls, have to work harder to compensate, is all.

 

[xssve]

Hon, I wouldn't call you a "bitch" OR a "real man" because that would be using a stereotype and would be hateful. It would be like what you say about Cloudy, just because your wife that left you happened to be an American Indian, as well. It would be like the demeaning comments you make about Stella and myself because we have sex lives and you have difficulty with that because of your erectile dysfunction. I get all that. But, trust me, you life will be SO much better if you would just try not to hate so much. Really. Please try?

Lol.

What did I say about Cloudy?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm convinced a lot of it actually has to do with body type less than social expectations, which are more fine grained and culturally influenced, i.e., a mesomorph is a "real man", an ectomorph is a "wimp", an endomorph is a "toad", etc., and this has to do with how the brain interprets visual cues and translates them into sexual attraction.

What I am asking is;

Are there any epithets that describe men, as men-- in not only a negative light physically, but a gender-oriented dismissive, derogatory way.

"bastard" is about his mother, "Prick," etc are paralell to "cunt" etc-- What would be an epithet that does NOT refer to actions like "cocksucker", but does describe the state of masculinity as something infantile, malleable, and preferred because of these negatives?

"Not a real man" sends the message loud and clear, that to be a man is a fine thing indeed. As does "not a real woman" send the message that to be a real woman is good.

 

[AllardChardon]

Doc,

You hit the nail on the head here:

"The thing men are most worried about losing in sex is their masculinity, their feeling of sexual power and virility, their ability to get an erection and perform. This is, without exaggerating, probably the most important symbolic element in a man's life, the very core of his being, and the importance of this is something that a lot of women don't really understand or appreciate. Not needing to achieve and maintain an erection and having a different experience of sex, they tend to discount the importance of this to a man and can't understand why men make such a big fucking deal about it."

Maybe, this is something that older people have to deal with more than the younger ones, but I have noticed this very dynamic and its ramafications.

At first, I tried to console the gentleman by saying "That is okay, no need to worry about not getting hard", and spent too much time focusing on him and his problem. Wrong tack, completely.

Men are so visual. If a woman is able to keep her arousal level going and maybe increase it, a man will usually get over the "fear" part, relax and then the blood can get where its going and all will be fine. The only thing that stopped the entire trip, dead in the water, was alcohol. No man can overcome too much alcohol, no matter how hard he tries. Better to sleep it off and try again in the morning.

I have a great deal of respect for men in their performance of manhood, in their part of the dance. And I am happy to follow their lead. I applaud "the very core of their being" and the way they show it! For the most part.

Allard

 

[voluptuary_manque]

What I am asking is;

Are there any epithets that describe men, as men-- in not only a negative light physically, but a gender-oriented dismissive, derogatory way.

"bastard" is about his mother, "Prick," etc are paralell to "cunt" etc-- What would be an epithet that does NOT refer to actions like "cocksucker", but does describe the state of masculinity as something infantile, malleable, and preferred because of these negatives?

"Not a real man" sends the message loud and clear, that to be a man is a fine thing indeed. As does "not a real woman" send the message that to be a real woman is good.

Among more educated men I would suggest "troglodyte" carries something like what you're thinking.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

The only thing that stopped the entire trip, dead in the water, was alcohol. No man can overcome too much alcohol, no matter how hard he tries.

There are other physical factors that can contribute as well. But if it's purely a psychological thing, I agree with you. If you make it about HIM in that moment, it only makes it worse. Focus on your own pleasure... and it should ultimately turn the tide.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Among more educated men I would suggest "troglodyte" carries something like what you're thinking.

Yeah, that seems to be mostly masculine.

So... one.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yeah, that seems to be mostly masculine.

So... one.

Hey, you asked for any. That's what I could come up with at the moment. Now you want an entire paragraph full?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hey, you asked for any. That's what I could come up with at the moment. Now you want an entire paragraph full?

I'm struck by how easy it is to find pages and pages of dismissives-- for women as women.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Are there epithets that describe, in your mind, a man's essential intellectual inferiority by virtue of his gender?

No, but then, I don't think there are any epithets or anything shameful about the idea of a woman who can't perform sexually like there is for a man either. There are no "efeminized" woman like there are emasculated men. You don't lose your essential value as a human being in your own eyes by your inability to live up to a sexual standard. So we each have our cross to bear. For a man it's the fear of castration or emasculation, for a woman it's the fear of being thought a bimbo or used as a sexual object.

The only thing that could get me as upset as a man as you women seem to be about this bimbo thing would be to see you emasculating a man here on the boards, which is why I think these things must roughly equivalent in moral weight and that they speak to the heart of our sexual identities.

I mean, I fully understand. I empathize. I can't really feel the horror women feel about it anymore than they can feel this castration fear, but I can appreciate what it means to be reduced to the worth of a set of genitals. I'm a little baffled at why exxsv's getting so much shit when I didn't see him saying anything patently offensive myself. I certainly don't see him being anti-female, so I'm kind of confused about that.

I think it's interesting too that we of course play with these two taboos of emasculation and bimbofication in our sexual games, especially in BDSM, so they're things we're interested in. We just want to make sure we're in charge of them when they happen.