Are more men now deciding not to shoulder the burden of upholding society?

[Le Jacquelope]

Bear with me on this.

It appears that fewer and fewer men are going to college, and women in big cities are starting to out earn men (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/n...c0149a9a4&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss), and today's jobless rates hurt men more than women (http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/105040/The-Slump:-It's-a-Guy-Thing).

(Ever notice how no one cares when it's men who are suffering? I'm the first person to ever bring this up around here!)

If this trend continues to spread, basically, women could one day be out earning men in general.

For millions of years, men have had the burden of bringing home the bread and now it seems a lot are just backing off, without even realizing they're doing it.


If men eventually stop being the ones who bear the world on their shoulders, and eventually even flee the more dangerous job roles in society for the sake of their own longevity... what happens next? (Note, that's a big "if")

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Bear with me on this.

It appears that fewer and fewer men are going to college, and women in big cities are starting to out earn men (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/n...c0149a9a4&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss), and today's jobless rates hurt men more than women (http://finance.yahoo.com/career-work/article/105040/The-Slump:-It's-a-Guy-Thing).

(Ever notice how no one cares when it's men who are suffering? I'm the first person to ever bring this up around here!)

If this trend continues to spread, basically, women could one day be out earning men in general.

For millions of years, men have had the burden of bringing home the bread and now it seems a lot are just backing off, without even realizing they're doing it.


If men eventually stop being the ones who bear the world on their shoulders, and eventually even flee the more dangerous job roles in society for the sake of their own longevity... what happens next? (Note, that's a big "if")

You misinterpret vague statistics. More women are going to college but they're majoring in entertainment, like English Lit or Communications. Young men have begun to figure out that the "y'hafta go to caawwlege" trap is pure bullshit in a world where the highest average paid occupation is a plumber at $150K/ year. Screw college, unless you are a born academic. Learn a trade that is and will remain in demand. Earn a comfortable living, go on vacation, fish and have fun. As far as the 'burdens of the world", fuck 'em!

 

[Le Jacquelope]

You misinterpret vague statistics. More women are going to college but they're majoring in entertainment, like English Lit or Communications. Young men have begun to figure out that the "y'hafta go to caawwlege" trap is pure bullshit in a world where the highest average paid occupation is a plumber at $150K/ year. Screw college, unless you are a born academic. Learn a trade that is and will remain in demand. Earn a comfortable living, go on vacation, fish and have fun. As far as the 'burdens of the world", fuck 'em!

So why is unemployment hitting men more than women? (proof posted in link above)

Why are women's earnings catching up to men in large cities? (proof posted in link above)

English Lit and Communications can make you a lot of money - more than Tech can, since those jobs are practically fleeing overseas.

BTW speaking of plumbers, my wife and I write work comp and general liability for plumbing C class contractors and we're noticing a huge die-off. We look in the CSLB quite often and see licenses recently expired at an alarming rate as of late, and new "this contractor has declared exemption from worker's comp due to certifying that they have no workers".

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LE JACQUELOPE

From what I see, college is now a pink collar ghetto with no prestige. That is, men abandoned liberal arts for hard science and business. Teaching is for pussies. Even police and firefighting are quickly becoming pussy work. Ditto for law.

Other men enlisted in the military.

Men are doing manly work that women dont like or cant do as well.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

LE JACQUELOPE

From what I see, college is now a pink collar ghetto with no prestige. That is, men abandoned liberal arts for hard science and business. Teaching is for pussies. Even police and firefighting are quickly becoming pussy work. Ditto for law.

Other men enlisted in the military.

Men are doing manly work that women dont like or cant do as well.

From the book of "Work Smarter, Not Harder":

http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/linda-tischler/design-times/where-girls-are

February 2, 2005


4:21 pm
Where the Girls Are
posted by Linda Tischler

While the gender wage gap gets all the attention, the real news is in the number of fields in which women now earn more than men. Here's a list of 10 areas in which women earn at least 5% more, culled from a more extensive table in Warren Farrells new book, Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap and What Women Can Do about It.

(Source: an unpublished table compiled by the Bureau of Labor Statistics)

The first number is for women, the second for men.

* Sales Engineer -- $89,908 -- $62.660
* Engineering managers -- $82,784 -- $76,752
* Aerospace engineers -- $78.416 -- $70,356
* Financial analysts -- $69,004 -- $58,604
* Radiation therapists -- $59,124 -- $53,300
* Statisticians -- $49,140 -- $36,296
* Tool and die makers -- $46,228 -- $40,144
* Speech pathologists -- $45,136 -- $35,048
* Advertising managers -- $42,068 -- $40,144
* Agricultural scientists -- $41,704 -- $39,156

Of course, lots of those jobs are things like "gaming services workers" -- (croupiers, who get nice tips), and telephone operators -- a declining category if there ever was one. But it's nice to know there are a few jobs where the ladies prevail. I'm looking forward to the day when this list includes things like CFO, CMO, CEO.
Tags: Careers, career development

 

[3113]

If men eventually stop being the ones who bear the world on their shoulders, and eventually even flee the more dangerous job roles in society for the sake of their own longevity... what happens next?

Um...they stay at home and take care of the kids?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3273/2453920548_a4de349db5_o.jpg

I love a man in an apron!

 

[TheeGoatPig]

300,000 and 700,000 (number of jobs changing hands) are pretty small numbers when you look at the 300,000,000 people that live in this country. That is a small swing, and hardly worth mentioning.

And college is unneeded for most people, as the bear said earlier. You don't need to learn all of the excess bullshit taught there to be a plumber, construction worker, restaurant worker (even up through management), or even for my job of architectural draftsman (I learned most of what I do in high school and the rest on the job). There was a push back in the day to get everyone to overschool themselves for the prestige of saying, "My child/I went to college!" But it isn't needed. It's time to stop wasting our money on something that, for most people, only appears to introduce them to a large number of new people that could make possible friendships.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

300,000 and 700,000 (number of jobs changing hands) are pretty small numbers when you look at the 300,000,000 people that live in this country. That is a small swing, and hardly worth mentioning.

And college is unneeded for most people, as the bear said earlier. You don't need to learn all of the excess bullshit taught there to be a plumber, construction worker, restaurant worker (even up through management), or even for my job of architectural draftsman (I learned most of what I do in high school and the rest on the job). There was a push back in the day to get everyone to overschool themselves for the prestige of saying, "My child/I went to college!" But it isn't needed. It's time to stop wasting our money on something that, for most people, only appears to introduce them to a large number of new people that could make possible friendships.

Employers don't agree with you. Most require college degrees now.

And last I heard their word was gospel?

 

[TheeGoatPig]

Employers don't agree with you. Most require college degrees now.

And last I heard their word was gospel?

But you have to ask, "Why"? What did college teach them that was so important that they couldn't have gotten in on the job training?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

But you have to ask, "Why"? What did college teach them that was so important that they couldn't have gotten in on the job training?

You mean, like doctors? Scientists in general? Engineers? Would you trust a chemist that learned "on the job"?

On the job training pigeon holes you in specialization. We're not meant for that.

A well rounded education has intrinsic value.

What we need is more college educated people, not a chosen few who are pushed into it to fight for a line of work that has gone overseas by the time they graduate (like biotech is heading now).

 

[Iamcanadian28]

You mean, like doctors? Scientists in general? Engineers? Would you trust a chemist that learned "on the job"?

On the job training pigeon holes you in specialization. We're not meant for that.

A well rounded education has intrinsic value.

What we need is more college educated people, not a chosen few who are pushed into it to fight for a line of work that has gone overseas by the time they graduate (like biotech is heading now).

In case you hadn't noticed the examples you gave of Doctors, Engineers Chemists are specialized. Their education is of virtually no value in any other field. So if their is such value in general well rounded education, then why are the highest paid people those who specialize their education?

 

[Le Jacquelope]

In case you hadn't noticed the examples you gave of Doctors, Engineers Chemists are specialized. Their education is of virtually no value in any other field. So if their is such value in general well rounded education, then why are the highest paid people those who specialize their education?

Because teachers are undervalued?

College professors, on the other hand......

 

[Liar]

But you have to ask, "Why"? What did college teach them that was so important that they couldn't have gotten in on the job training?

For most jobs, a college degree is a screening criteria. It shows you got to at least know something. It shows you have some kind of work ethics since you didn't drop out of college. Not that it takes much brains and much hard work to get a basic degree in some subjects. But it takes some.

Now, a job applicant without a degree might know a lot and work just as hard or better. But they may also be complete fuckups.

And the employer don't have time to take that risk. So he screens out the non-college applicants as a first selection to weed out the complete failures. Along with all the good non-college applicants. But you know what they say about omelets and eggs.

 

[alyxen]

Employers don't agree with you. Most require college degrees now.

And last I heard their word was gospel?

One minor adjustment here is that for the most part, it is 'require a college degree OR (big OR!) equivalent work experience'. I've been at the same company for 14 years, and have had a couple jobs where they would normally require a degree; work experience has won me the position. So you can go to college and start a rung or two higher, or just go get the work experience, IMHO.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LE JACQUELOPE

Yep, women earn more than men for plenty of jobs BUT women prefer stability to chaos AND generally decline work opportunities that are inconvenient or chaotic. HENCE they earn less than men who take the chaotic jobs. Plus women are notorious for job-jumping.

 

[JagFarlane]

College...hmmmm interesting points and such brought up. So here's my take on it.

Years ago, college was reserved more for the social elite and for the academically strong. This view continued even through the 60's and 70's [an example is the movie Rudy, based upon the true story, where his father scoffs at the idea that his son could go to college]. Womens lib was just hitting its stride. As the baby boomer generation grew up, college became a goal of students, each wanting to break away from the blue collar setting of their parents. A lot of this, is actually due to the GI Bill post-WWII, which enabled those vets to go back to college, and is actually, at least partly, credited with creating the middle class.
Parents wanted their kids to go to college, seeing it as a route to being more successful in life. As such, community colleges came into play, allowing virtually any high school grad to go to college. Following shortly after, more student loans became available, enabling students to pay off the big bills of college.
As the years progressed, more and more people went to college, less going into trade schools. This is where you get plumbers that make 150K a year, less supply of them with a higher demand.
Parents dreamed of their kids becoming doctors, lawyers, and big buisnessfolk. And so those majors began to really fill up. Engineering and other science heavy majors faltered, as the allure of big business loomed. Students who normally would have become engineers went over to business in search of big bucks.
College, now not just an opportunity for some, became the norm for high school students to look at. A lot of high school counselors pushed students to go to college, and would scoff at learning a trade. College became ingrained in these student minds, that it would be the only way to make money.
However, with such, college became more and more expensive. Faced with the prospect of $100K+ tuition bills, a small rebellion has begun. Particularly combined with the lack of Generation X filling trade schools. Someone could pick up say, to learn being an electrician, easily earn their journeymans, start a decent salary and work their way up to being a master electrician.
So now, things are working at balancing themselves out, between students who go to college, and those who do not. A lot of people forgot that college, in the end, is a privilege, not a right.
Combine this with the fact that women are essentially maturing into the professional world. There are companies now where the executives are women. HP/Compaq was run by a female CEO...most of Dilliards mid-upper management are women.
It takes a while, and things always go in swings. Its mostly the natural cycle.
Even now, a good example, is the thought, from another thread, of people being lazy in jobs. This is the lashback against the baby boomer gen whom became workaholics. Many of my generation look at their parents and say no, they don't want to work 60-80hrs a week and ignore their families. Combine that with the fact that many are used to things being handed to them, as well as the fact that there is a family expectancy of a college grad to step into a high paying job [after all, why else would you pay that tuition?], has created a problem for business.
Baby boomers have had a tendency to have high expectations for their kids, and have also forgotten what they were like when they were teens. Free love anyone?
But truthfully, this is the world as you all shaped it. Embrace it or hate it, because this is what you taught your kids.

 

[incubus666]

Good post JF.

Le Jack you stated most employeers want a collage grad. I really doubt anyone needing to hire a plumber, a framing carpenter, an electrician or any of the other trades we need in our daily lives askes if the applicant has a collage degree.

I will admit some community collages do support trades apprenticeship programs. So while the new hire may have some collage education it is not what we usually think of as a collage education.

Community colleges also have what are discribed as "Certificate" programs. Programs for specific areas. For eaxmple X-Ray tech, Ultra sound tech, or in my case Nuclear Medical Tech. Although I have had a B.S. in physics when I was hired as a nuc. med. tech. no one even asked if I had a collage degree. I was considered hireable just as long I had passed the certification.

Mike S.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

College...hmmmm interesting points and such brought up. So here's my take on it.

Years ago, college was reserved more for the social elite and for the academically strong. This view continued even through the 60's and 70's [an example is the movie Rudy, based upon the true story, where his father scoffs at the idea that his son could go to college]. Womens lib was just hitting its stride. As the baby boomer generation grew up, college became a goal of students, each wanting to break away from the blue collar setting of their parents. A lot of this, is actually due to the GI Bill post-WWII, which enabled those vets to go back to college, and is actually, at least partly, credited with creating the middle class.
Parents wanted their kids to go to college, seeing it as a route to being more successful in life. As such, community colleges came into play, allowing virtually any high school grad to go to college. Following shortly after, more student loans became available, enabling students to pay off the big bills of college.
As the years progressed, more and more people went to college, less going into trade schools. This is where you get plumbers that make 150K a year, less supply of them with a higher demand.
Parents dreamed of their kids becoming doctors, lawyers, and big buisnessfolk. And so those majors began to really fill up. Engineering and other science heavy majors faltered, as the allure of big business loomed. Students who normally would have become engineers went over to business in search of big bucks.
College, now not just an opportunity for some, became the norm for high school students to look at. A lot of high school counselors pushed students to go to college, and would scoff at learning a trade. College became ingrained in these student minds, that it would be the only way to make money.
However, with such, college became more and more expensive. Faced with the prospect of $100K+ tuition bills, a small rebellion has begun. Particularly combined with the lack of Generation X filling trade schools. Someone could pick up say, to learn being an electrician, easily earn their journeymans, start a decent salary and work their way up to being a master electrician.
So now, things are working at balancing themselves out, between students who go to college, and those who do not. A lot of people forgot that college, in the end, is a privilege, not a right.
Combine this with the fact that women are essentially maturing into the professional world. There are companies now where the executives are women. HP/Compaq was run by a female CEO...most of Dilliards mid-upper management are women.
It takes a while, and things always go in swings. Its mostly the natural cycle.
Even now, a good example, is the thought, from another thread, of people being lazy in jobs. This is the lashback against the baby boomer gen whom became workaholics. Many of my generation look at their parents and say no, they don't want to work 60-80hrs a week and ignore their families. Combine that with the fact that many are used to things being handed to them, as well as the fact that there is a family expectancy of a college grad to step into a high paying job [after all, why else would you pay that tuition?], has created a problem for business.
Baby boomers have had a tendency to have high expectations for their kids, and have also forgotten what they were like when they were teens. Free love anyone?
But truthfully, this is the world as you all shaped it. Embrace it or hate it, because this is what you taught your kids.

So how come several major industries in America are screaming about the lack of college graduates to fill their needs for an increasingly intelligent work force?

They need people with critical thinking and analytical skills. And we're talking about a wide variety of industries where trade school just doesn't cut it.

My point is, a college education isn't just a privilege - it's a requirement for many industries to continue to exist. Unless we're going to go back to the Amish lifestyle...

 

[Le Jacquelope]

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/02/local/me-demographics2

Study Sees Lack of Educated Workers to Meet State Needs

...

 

[SirLicksAalot]

For most jobs, a college degree is a screening criteria. It shows you got to at least know something. It shows you have some kind of work ethics since you didn't drop out of college. Not that it takes much brains and much hard work to get a basic degree in some subjects. But it takes some.

Now, a job applicant without a degree might know a lot and work just as hard or better. But they may also be complete fuckups.

And the employer don't have time to take that risk. So he screens out the non-college applicants as a first selection to weed out the complete failures. Along with all the good non-college applicants. But you know what they say about omelets and eggs.

This works for jobs that are not related to the college degree. I am in the Financial Field, and frankly, it would be very difficult to get hired to a uber-specific position, without a degree in a related field. There is no such thing as an "on the job" training. When it comes to money, no fuck-ups whatsoever is tolerable.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

This works for jobs that are not related to the college degree. I am in the Financial Field, and frankly, it would be very difficult to get hired to a uber-specific position, without a degree in a related field. There is no such thing as an "on the job" training. When it comes to money, no fuck-ups whatsoever is tolerable.

And financial services are not a specialized field.

Especially not commercial lines banking and insurance, where you must show a capacity to learn a great deal about many different businesses to underwrite them properly for loans or insurance.

And let's not get into those mutual fund people who have to go investigate a company to know if it's a good investment!!!

 

[KLCK]

My college has a 3:2 girl:guy ratio.

HURRAY FOR ME.

 

[incubus666]

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jun/02/local/me-demographics2

Study Sees Lack of Educated Workers to Meet State Needs

...

Bill Gates has been bitching for several years about the limits on the H1b visas. A few years ago I also read a blog by an American programer who was layed of by a company who hired a H1b visa holder to replace him at $10k-15K less then he was being paid.

Another possible problem with the article is the assumption that all the hi-tec businesses will stay in California. With their crappy tax system companies are moving from CA to other states with lower taxes.

Do the companies really need the H1b holders are they simply out sourcing the jobs within our boarders, by importing foreign workers, to cut their costs and increase their profits?

Feel free to assume I have my head in my ass then tell me what the resolution should/could be.

Oh yeah tell me who is going to pay for it and how.

Mike S.

 

[Xelebes]

My accounting "section" has 8 guys (including me) and 24 girls - and I go to a tech school.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Bill Gates has been bitching for several years about the limits on the H1b visas. A few years ago I also read a blog by an American programer who was layed of by a company who hired a H1b visa holder to replace him at $10k-15K less then he was being paid.

Another possible problem with the article is the assumption that all the hi-tec businesses will stay in California. With their crappy tax system companies are moving from CA to other states with lower taxes.

Do the companies really need the H1b holders are they simply out sourcing the jobs within our boarders, by importing foreign workers, to cut their costs and increase their profits?

Feel free to assume I have my head in my ass then tell me what the resolution should/could be.

Oh yeah tell me who is going to pay for it and how.

Mike S.

Actually, you're right. The truth is, there are tons of unemployed college grads - more than high school dropouts - and yet at the same time, these companies are complaining about a lack of college grads.

It is indeed confusing.

And high tech businesses are not just leaving California - they're leaving America.

Let me tell you what we need to do to compete against India and China for these businesses... we need to cut American wages by 90%. We need to allow companies to pollute our air and water with impunity (all of which is pretty much happening in India and China), and we need to stop providing for safe work places (which is why so many workers die all the time in China).

If we cannot do that then we don't deserve these businesses.

Now would you like to live in a country that is 'competitive'?