Oh Look!! A War!

[voluptuary_manque]

Exactly! Like I said above, the last time we came to the aid of a not-very-squared-away ally, it cost us 58,000 of my brothers and sisters. Georgia started it, they can finish it.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Hold on Keebler, I really don't get this. Was the US really close with Georgia? Were we hinting that we'd stand behind them in a showdown with Russia? Because that's kind of idiotic think to promise them, isn't it? Georgia is Russia's neighbor. There's no way we're going to ship military aid to Russia's neighbor, let alone put troops in there and start a war with Russia itself. Georgia must have known that.

What am I missing here?

The question, Zoot, is what was the US missing here? We were supporting their application to NATO.... We were training their troops... They were our closest allies in the region.... We had repeatedly supported them in their territorial claim on S. Ossetia and Askbakia or whatever the fuck I am to tired and annoyed to look up whatever it is called...

Your question of "why" is a perfectly good one... Why indeed?

And why did we NOT know anything about this cagey strategy of theirs? We certainly KNEW that Russia had massed troops on the border... (you don't really think the Russian Army "reacts" that quickly, do you?) We KNEW the Russians had shot down the fancy little spy drones we sent them... The ones that told the Georgians and US that the Russians were massing troops on the border...

I am as puzzled by this as anyone... just a lot more embarassed at how impotent we appear. Why did we support their being in NATO if defending them was impossible? All it did was piss the Russians off everytime we brought it up..... BUT... we did it anyway.... And boy did they get pissed.

Where was the new and improved intelligence community on this?

What did Bush know and when? Or rather... why not????

The little agressive bastards they are, the Georgians were America's buddy and ally and soulmate in the region and we watched them seemingly commit suicide without a blink. And now.... Are we going to watch the Russians take the entire country? Or just whatever part they want?

Many here seem to think Georgia is so far away that it does not mean anything... Strange.... Afghanistan isn't? Iraq isn't?

How does the Ukraine feel now that we have so convincingly stood up for their neighbor? A little exposed suddenly? How about the Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia? How about Poland?

Anybody care about those countries? They are all a lot closer to Russia than us..... Every argument made here about Georgia applies to them too.

Where DOES our sphere of influence go to? I am stunned that we not only appear powerless against this..... but we have convinced ourselves that it is okay....

I appreciate, Zoot, that this little affair is hardly a blip back home... it is why I started this rant.... But, like you, it just does not make any sense to me... None of it.

We.. the Government... the people.... the Europeans... were all out to lunch here. We let them get into this mess... and have done nothing when the Russian came down like a ton of shit on them.

Looking on the bright side of things... I guess we have settled the NATO question about Georgia.... that will just have to wait until the rest of Russia joins.....

-KC

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Exactly! Like I said above, the last time we came to the aid of a not-very-squared-away ally, it cost us 58,000 of my brothers and sisters. Georgia started it, they can finish it.

You know there are a lot of parallels to Vietnam with Iraq.. hardly any with Georgia....

Maybe Korea but even that is tortured... Do you remember reading about Hitler and Poland? How those brutal Polish border guards attached Germany who was forced to defend itself? THAT is an analogy.

I don't want to go to war with Russia... I have said that again and again. But I cannot believe I have to convince anybody that standing up to Russia now will pay dividends in the future.... In any way..... in any form....

Just send troops to Tblisi and make the Russians stay where the are.... Let THEM squirm and wonder about what we will do....

The other option is to just let Georgia go. They started it. They can finish it.

Okay.... next round.... Anybody know where Charlie Wilson is? Charlie, you are not going to believe this but we did it again....

-KC

 

[Lisa Denton]

Here's how to tell: Look at the Russians - are their lips moving?

(BTW, I like Russians as people, but as a political entity I trust them as far as I can throw a T-62 tank.)

Roxanne, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes disagree, but I love the posts like this where I go "damn, she knows how to make a point."

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Roxanne, sometimes I agree with you and sometimes disagree, but I love the posts like this where I go "damn, she knows how to make a point."

Ah, you know the way to a polemicist's heart.

 

[Elianna]

I was listening to NPR on the way home from work today. I find it amusing to hear how no one is "really" sure what's happening.

The Georgians say they bomed their airport.

The Russians say "Na! You're smoking something!"

And back and forth. Amusing and... frightening really.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

I was listening to NPR on the way home from work today. I find it amusing to hear how no one is "really" sure what's happening.

The Georgians say they bomed their airport.

The Russians say "Na! You're smoking something!"

And back and forth. Amusing and... frightening really.

I will go with frightening.

I know I am coming off here as over-reacting to a little war, far, far away. Complicated by the lack of a clear "good guy" and "bad guy" in the mess.

No doubt my being here in Moscow adds to this frustration and paranoia...

Having said all that... I am so disappointed in my government. Not the usual, political partisanship crap.... just so disappointed in how little self respect we now have. And how little respect we have for our "allies" in the world.

This is visceral.... like I felt post 9/11....

We ARE responsible to the Georgians.. they are the product of our influence and policies... misguided tho they may be.

We should have known what they were doing and stopped them.

We should have stepped up to the Russians before they over-reacted.

Period.

As for whom to believe.... thank God we have an independent media.. distracted by celebrities and sports that they may be.

Our own government seems totally silent on what is actually happening. Not because they do not know... but because it is all so..... embarassing. Friends being assholes and enemies telling us to shove it up our ass.


If there is any truth to the Russia Today crap, it is wholly accidental, and only because it happens to align with government policy. As far as Rox can throw a T-62.... and all that.

-KC

 

[trysail]

I read Ria Novosti and The Moscow Times on-line every day. It will come as no surprise that there's a slight bit of difference in their reporting on events in Georgia.

http://en.rian.ru/
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/index.htm

 

[Elianna]

I've never made it to Russia, but I've traveled Europe rather frequently and try to stay well-read on current events.

Since the office became occupied by a "shrubbery" (sinister music) *gasp* I feel that our international credibility has dropped to an all-time low (for my lifetime at least.)

I am so grateful for the freedoms I've been afforded and the sacrifices my ancestors made to get here, so I never want to seem the unappreciative American spoiled brat, but I'm ashamed. Our government has taken the "fuck you" approach to politics. With the digital age our world has gotten smaller, but the chasms created by our international politics seem to be getting bigger.

The anti-american sentiments in other nations is startling. Scares the shit out of me. And this whole mess just reinforces why people hate America.

Granted we do LOTS of good stuff, but the scale is off balance a little right now.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Well, it would seem like we wanted to see just how far we could bluff the Russians, and we found out. We could bluff them as far as Georgia, and there they called our bluff and we apparently folded. We were bluffing all along.

I feel for the Georgians, but I have to say, the idea of expanding NATO to the very doors of the Kremlin always seemed like madness to me, like we were rubbing Russia's face in it. Better we should have overseen some Confederation of East Central States or something and signed a treaty with them. You can't surround a former power like that and repeatedly disrespect them and not expect strong repercussions.

I wonder how George is going to square this with the Anti-terror thing? Aren't the Russians helping terrorists?

 

[scheherazade_79]

I guess it's not a big deal if no one intervenes. After all, it's Russia going into her back yard, isn't it? Just like Hitler did, all those years ago in the Sudetenland

If Bush had exercised a little more restraint in the "War on Terror" and not just gone for easy targets in places where men wear dresses and get around by camel, it's likely that we'd be in a far better position to deter real threats to world stability, like Russia.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Well, it would seem like we wanted to see just how far we could bluff the Russians, and we found out. We could bluff them as far as Georgia, and there they called our bluff and we apparently folded. We were bluffing all along.

I feel for the Georgians, but I have to say, the idea of expanding NATO to the very doors of the Kremlin always seemed like madness to me, like we were rubbing Russia's face in it. Better we should have overseen some Confederation of East Central States or something and signed a treaty with them. You can't surround a former power like that and repeatedly disrespect them and not expect strong repercussions.

I wonder how George is going to square this with the Anti-terror thing? Aren't the Russians helping terrorists?

I guess it's not a big deal if no one intervenes. After all, it's Russia going into her back yard, isn't it? Just like Hitler did, all those years ago in the Sudetenland

If Bush had exercised a little more restraint in the "War on Terror" and not just gone for easy targets in places where men wear dresses and get around by camel, it's likely that we'd be in a far better position to deter real threats to world stability, like Russia.

Yep. What you both said.

Maybe I will stroll down the street (can see the Kremlin from here) and see if I can work up a deal... Maybe Cheney and a future VP to be named later and we get Putin to play out this season.... Let George watch from the bench...
Not sure if they will go for it or not... but they do have another starter these days... Sort of a Packer/Jets thing....

-KC

 

[Equinoxe]

I'm not disagreeing with Roxanne's opinions about Russians, just reminding folks that Joseph Stalin was a Georgian, not a Russian.

By culture he was Georgian, by descent he was Ossetian (something which was regularly pointed out by his enemies).

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

By culture he was Georgian, by descent he was Ossetian (something which was regularly pointed out by his enemies).

Curious..... How ironic is all that? Hardly heard of the place before and now it turns out to be the source of a lot of historical problems!! Great post!

I was too busy ranting to bother with Rox's throw away line about Russian prevarication...... witty tho it was rose(and we do like wit, here)(and Rox)...

But I did have this like-flash....

How you can tell when Dubya is lying?

Cheney's lips move.



-KC

 

[Lisa Denton]

Curious..... How ironic is all that? Hardly heard of the place before and now it turns out to be the source of a lot of historical problems!! Great post!

I was too busy ranting to bother with Rox's throw away line about Russian prevarication...... witty tho it was rose(and we do like wit, here)(and Rox)...

But I did have this like-flash....

How you can tell when Dubya is lying?

Cheney's lips move.



-KC

Never underestimate Cheney, remember he even shot his own friend in the face.

 

[colddiesel]

Oily

Ignore all the moral arguments, they are all irrelavent. The only important issue for the West is that only one oil pipeline from Central Asia does not go through Russia to the West. It goes through Georgia. That fact alone makes it imperative that the Russians are stopped . If Georgian territory(South Ossetia) has to be sacrificed to preserve the pipeline from Russian control - too bad.

The way to deal with the Russians is to increase oil exploration as rapidly as possible. About 70% of the value of the Russian Bourse is in Oil and Gas. However the Russian economy depends on Oil continuing to sell at $105 to $115 a barrel. If the West can get oil down to those levels in real terms the Russian government is in trouble. Oil is Russias strength but also her weakness . Is Bush smart enough to see that.

 

[torchthebitch]

The NuSovUN is going to hand us our arses for hats.

Our troops are overextended and they were just a little too quick in their reaction for them to be mobilising from a peacetime position. Hell, Britain couldn't deploy their Spearhead into NI that quick

 

[keeblercrumb]

The way to deal with the Russians is to increase oil exploration as rapidly as possible. About 70% of the value of the Russian Bourse is in Oil and Gas. However the Russian economy depends on Oil continuing to sell at $105 to $115 a barrel. If the West can get oil down to those levels in real terms the Russian government is in trouble. Oil is Russias strength but also her weakness . Is Bush smart enough to see that.

Or decrease our demand for it....(oil) Much easier.. Much faster... Much more sustainable....

But that is yet another Threadjack..... That makes four for me alone today, I think!



-KC

 

[rgraham666]

When you do battle, even if you are winning, if you continue a long time it will dull your forces and blunt your edge; if you besiege a citadel, your strength will be exhausted. If you keep your armies out in the field a long time, your supplies will be insufficient.

When your forces are dulled, your edge is blunted, your strength is exhausted, and your supplies are gone, then others will take advantage of your debility and rise up. Then even if you have wise advisors you cannot make things turn out well in the end.

Therefore I have heard of military operations that were clumsy and swift, but I have never seen one that lasted a long time. It is never beneficial to a nation to have a military operation continue for a long time.

Therefore, those who are not thoroughly aware of the disadvantages of the use of arms cannot be thoroughly aware of the advantages of the use of arms.

Sun Tzu - The Art Of War, Chapter 2: Doing Battle

Words from two and a half millennia ago still bear truth today. Too few pay attention though.

 

[Elianna]

Or decrease our demand for it....(oil) Much easier.. Much faster... Much more sustainable....

But that is yet another Threadjack..... That makes four for me alone today, I think!



-KC

I'm going to reply to your threadjack on the "other thread" about animal rights, since there is where it belongs.

1. GET THE HELL OUT OF MOSCOW!

2. NPR just said that the Georgians got on the street and held up flags and fists supporting their president and telling Russia to go "fuck itself" (probably not using such eloquent words as I just did ). So this makes me wonder...

Little guy... flipping of big guy with much bigger tanks... when little guy obviously knows its backup just backed out. Hmmm... It seems the little guy is being rather foolish.

3. Note how Russian President (under puppet handler Putin) said "we're quitting" right before UN got intense on negotiating a "quit"

Lots of food for thought.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

I'm going to reply to your threadjack on the "other thread" about animal rights, since there is where it belongs.

1. GET THE HELL OUT OF MOSCOW!

2. NPR just said that the Georgians got on the street and held up flags and fists supporting their president and telling Russia to go "fuck itself" (probably not using such eloquent words as I just did ). So this makes me wonder...

Little guy... flipping of big guy with much bigger tanks... when little guy obviously knows its backup just backed out. Hmmm... It seems the little guy is being rather foolish.

3. Note how Russian President (under puppet handler Putin) said "we're quitting" right before UN got intense on negotiating a "quit"

Lots of food for thought.

To paraphrase the late Willie Sutton... I am in Russia because "that's where the women are".... However, I am entertaining domestic offers, as it happens...

Seriously... things are cool here... Hardly a blip on the street that I can determine... I think they are all walking a little taller, is all. After the long years of embarassment with their own "South Ossetia" aka Chechnya...
they are ready for a little "whoop ass" recognition.

Reminds me of Reagan kicking Grenada's formidable army's ass... on our way back to military respectability....

But thanks for the thought...

From your reporter at the Front....

-KC

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Well.....now that it is utterly too late to do anything helpful, Dubya is getting "pissed" (That is the American vernacular.... or maybe it IS the British one... hmmmm) and really, really, seriously threatening Russia they had better stop.

And Russia, now trembling, responds by saying we have... sort of... more or less.... in few days or so......

You want to know the really scary part... THIS IS THE SHIT THAT GETS US INTO REAL WARS WITH FOLKS..

Having utterly and completely failing to do anything to
A. Stop Georgia from doing something completely stupid after bitching about an obvious Russian build-up for months.....

B. Stopping Russia from expanding the war after they started.... How?
b-1 Doing something.
b-2 quit playing beach volleyball and fly his cowardly ass to Tbilisi
b-3 Fly a Brigade from the 82nd Airborne into Tbilisi
b-4 Establish a no fly zone over Georgia proper from any one of 6 airbases in the region.
b-5 Threatening to commit suicide and leaving Cheney in charge...

ANYTHING!!

But that was last week, when a token show of force would have stopped Russia in it's tracks, re-assured the other allies, and maybe bitchslapping Saakashvili until he behaved....

But now? We amp the rhetoric.... Still not publicly stating that Saakashvili triggered this whole fiasco.... by doing exactly what the Russians wanted him to do...... What good would that do? Give the Russians a little face.... And establish a little credibility with what everyone else already knows….

So we will creep into this thing until we actually DO have to fight a war with these guys... here or elsewhere... now or later... when prompt effective action could have stopped it all cold last week.

Of course then George would have had to leave the Olympics and we can't have that can we??? So many photo ops!!!!

And for the last time... WHERE THE HELL WAS THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY?????

Now for the good news.....

I am leaving Russia tomorrow.

-KC

 

[rgraham666]

Better hurry, KC. Next few days are going to be rough.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I guess it's not a big deal if no one intervenes. After all, it's Russia going into her back yard, isn't it? Just like Hitler did, all those years ago in the Sudetenland

If Bush had exercised a little more restraint in the "War on Terror" and not just gone for easy targets in places where men wear dresses and get around by camel, it's likely that we'd be in a far better position to deter real threats to world stability, like Russia.

Sorry love, but that's the flip-side of the Neo-con hubris which holds that nothing good can happen in the world unless America makes it so. This version holds America responsible for everything bad that happens in the world. Russia was a bloody-handed imperialist long before there even was a USA. Bush's mistake was adopting the delusion early on that Putin was anything other than a KGB thug.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Listen, we knew this was going to happen. We have satellites up there that can see troop movements. We saw the Russians there. We knew about it. We could have told the Georgians but we didn't.

Apparently we'd made a deal with Putin to stay out of it. To make a little lip protest and that's it. That's the only explanation that fits. It was a done deal.

What Bush gets out of it...?