Oh Look!! A War!

[Tricialen]

It's just a game of RISK.......the one with the most countries...wins...

 

[trysail]

BP Plc, Europe's second-largest oil company by market value, said its operations and production continue as they were on Aug. 8, amid fighting between Russian and Georgian troops in the region of South Ossetia.

``The situation has not changed with regard to our operations since Friday,'' spokeswoman Tamam Bayatly said by phone from Baku, Azerbaijan, today. ``Our production continues and our exports continue.''

BP and other companies are pumping crude through the Baku- Supsa pipeline to the Georgian Black Sea coast, after a fire on Aug. 5 in Turkey stopped flows on the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which runs about 100 kilometers (60 miles) south of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali. Bayatly declined to comment on operations at Georgian ports.

Russia is scrutinizing ships arriving and departing from Georgia's Black Sea ports, Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of Russia's General Staff, told reporters in Moscow. It hasn't imposed a naval blockade, he said. Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin told reporters in Moscow that he knows of no plans to impose a naval blockade.

Georgia is a key link in a U.S.-backed ``southern energy corridor'' that connects the Caspian Sea region with world markets, bypassing Russia. The U.S. seeks to connect Central Asia natural gas supplies with European markets, skirting Russia in an attempt to weaken the grip of Russia's state-run OAO Gazprom energy company. One planned pipeline route runs from the Georgia-Turkey border.

Georgia's government said Russian bombers targeted the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline supplying Azeri crude across Georgia and Turkey to the Mediterranean Sea, a claim Russia would neither confirm nor deny.

``They bombed it but missed,'' Georgian Economy Minister Eka Sharashidze said by phone today. ``There were 27 bombs fired, 25 exploded and two did not, about 5 meters from the pipeline,'' she said.

Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin told Bloomberg News after a news conference in Moscow that the ministry ``doesn't have information on that.''

Georgia withdrew its troops from the separatist region of South Ossetia after four days of fighting with Russian and Ossetian forces as casualties rose ``into the hundreds,'' Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said by telephone from the capital Tbilisi.

Heavy fighting began on Aug. 7 in South Ossetia, which broke from Georgia in a war in the early 1990s. Russia sent troops and tanks into the disputed region the next day in what it said was a response to Georgia's assault on Russian citizens and peacekeeping forces. Most residents of South Ossetia hold Russian passports.

BP, StatoilHydro ASA and other partners reduced crude production at the Azeri-Chirag-Gunashli and Shah Deniz fields in the Azeri part of the Caspian Sea on Aug. 8 after a fire on the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline.

The fire in eastern Turkey is still burning, although flames are subsiding, Ebru Akdogan, a spokeswoman for Baku- Tbilisi-Ceyhan Co., said by phone today. She was unable to say when it will be put out and didn't have an estimate for how long repairs will take.

``We will need to extinguish the fire first and then we can see the damage,'' Akdogan said.

 

[Liar]

Why has Russia miscalculated?

Appearances.

Whatever their intentions were, they end up looking like old Stain style iron fist douchewaffles with a penis complex. And when, for instance, talking trade with the politically correct hug-fest that W. Europe has become lately, that's not an image to project.

 

[Lisa Denton]

In your wildest dreams, do you think Georgia would take on Russia unless they thought we would stand behind them????

KC

Maybe Russia thinks the only ones we could mobilize and "surge" in there is the Boy Scouts and Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

I thought it was ludicrous when I read that the 2000 Georgian troops in Iraq are awaiting american transport out of Iraq to go home and fight the russkies.

What will that do, even up the odds to like 4000 against 4 million or something?

But you are right, the GWB hawk should be screaming, the UN should be firing out stern reprimands and the french should be sending fruit baskets.

Who knows, maybe the chinese will launch some nukes at russia, wake George up.


EDITED TO ADD: Remain calm!!! Don't Panic!!! Cheney is in command.

 

[rgraham666]

EDITED TO ADD: Remain calm!!! Don't Panic!!! Cheney is in command.

Not helping!

 

[Pure]

good thread, keeb!

there is a pretty good review of the background, at:

http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/ossetia.htm

i think the s ossetians do have a claim to autonomy, and this was being worked out. as it is now, with russian "help", they may end up entirely screwed. the US, for all its talk of Georgia and its being an ally, will, i think leave the situation to the Russians to work out. the ossetians are caught in a play of the 'big powers.' i note that accomodating the big powers is an essential part of Bush's 'war on terrorism'.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

May I point out the trouble we had the last time we came to the military aid of a smaller 'ally' with Big Powers on the other side?

Member All SE Asia Wargames Second Place Team: 1959-1975

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

But lets forget it..... I'm sure George will sort it all out....

-KC

Now there's one hellaceously scary thought.

Look what it got us into the last time he tried to do that.

Rumple Foreskin

eta: What da Bear said, me, too. rf

 

[3113]

I am waiting to hear WHY George is enjoying the Olympics.;. when his silly ass should be on a plane to Tblisi or Moscow or both.......

But then he'd miss Women's Volleyball.

You gotta love hawks when they morph into pigeons....

Wake me up when it is next January...... I need a drink.

Name your poison (though I suppose we should forgo the vodka?). I get what you're feeling, including the seeming indifference of this forum to a real war. And I agree with your view of it all, as well.

Wish I could do more, but the people I wanted in office didn't get in, not either time I voted, and the one who did isn't going to do shit.

So let me do the only thing I can do and ask, Keebler, how the fuck are you? I know you're not in any good emotional/psychological state, but are you okay and safe there in Moscow? When a country goes to war, as we well know here, there is a tendency for patriots to come out of the woodwork and take to bashing--literally or figuratively--dissenters. Seriously. Are you okay?

 

[cantdog]

There in lies the problem. Most normal people come to a porn board to get away from reality. i know that sounds a little weird but it's true.

if i wanted to read about or discuss a war I'd be somewhere that caters to that type stuff. What the fuck do politics and wars have to do with write or reading good or even bad porn?

Uh sorry, i think I got carried away. i hate that i do that sometimes but then again most people don't listen anyway. they're over fucking midgets or some such shit.

"Most People" can kiss my ass. I'll talk about a war wherever I can find a sympathetic attention span. Which, despite your claim about "Most People," I can here.

These people are writers, and talk in sentences, usually. Very much a refreshing change from most sites where wars are discussed. Plus, I give a shit what these people believe, here, and whether they live or die, and whether they prosper. All in all, I have better discussions of reality here on what you witheringly refer to as a porn board than anywhere else I surf.

Additionally, you personally can kiss my ass. You do not get to make rules on an unmoderated board about what can and cannot be discussed. I'd appreciate your taking your high handed attitude and stuffing it somewhere uncomfortable. I left home years ago, and You Are Not My Dad.

Thank you for your kind attention.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

"Most People" can kiss my ass. I'll talk about a war wherever I can find a sympathetic attention span. Which, despite your claim about "Most People," I can here.

These people are writers, and talk in sentences, usually. Very much a refreshing change from most sites where wars are discussed. Plus, I give a shit what these people believe, here, and whether they live or die, and whether they prosper. All in all, I have better discussions of reality here on what you witheringly refer to as a porn board than anywhere else I surf.

Additionally, you personally can kiss my ass. You do not get to make rules on an unmoderated board about what can and cannot be discussed. I'd appreciate your taking your high handed attitude and stuffing it somewhere uncomfortable. I left home years ago, and You Are Not My Dad.

Thank you for your kind attention.

Easy there, Cant. Tx did the same thing as you--he gave an opinion. Then he also apologized:

Uh sorry, i think I got carried away. i hate that i do that sometimes but then again most people don't listen anyway. they're over fucking midgets or some such shit.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[Elianna]

Okay. Throwing my 2 cents in where they probably don't belong...

My family came to the U.S. from Ukraine in 1915, leaving one daughter to remain until 1919 when they could afford to bring her over. My grandmother and Aunt raised me with stories of hiding in the root cellars and in barns as they tried to flee the country during the turmoil of that time.

Anyway, those stories of living with the fear, hiding from war, the memories of the misery my family endured during that time made a huge impression on me.

On one hand, I think America has fucked around in so many places where it doesn't belong, and has completely lost its credibility internationally over the last 8 years. I don't think we've shown much wisdom in our military actions. Some people might equate what Russia and Georgia are doing with our own own war in Iraq. The reasons and excuses seem similar, but yet, here we are.

On the other hand, it strikes a chord of sorrow to think that the same things my family suffered through 100 years ago seem to be repeating themselves. I'll keep the people in my prayers. Funny how we allow history to repeat itself so often.

 

[cantdog]

Easy there, Cant. Tx did the same thing as you--give an opinion. Then he also apologized:



Rumple Foreskin

Thanks, rumply. I like Tx, too, dammit.

But I count on this place. It really is a great place to talk about things like this.

Sorry I got heated about it.

 

[Belegon]

In an interview with Costas, W says, with a straight face, that we are trying to "promote peace and harmony" and the he told Putin that "this violence is unacceptable"...

Gee, George... wow.

Look in the mirror much?

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Thanks, rumply. I like Tx, too, dammit.

But I count on this place. It really is a great place to talk about things like this.

Sorry I got heated about it.

Odds are Tx is asleep. What you say we slip over to his place and drink a few of his beers? Seems like the gentlemanly thing to do.

Rumple Foreskin

eta: Belegon, it's bad enough your 'Bolts' beat my 'Pokes.' Now you have to rub it in by quoting W. Oh, the horror! rf

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Appleby
Why has Russia miscalculated?

Appearances.

Whatever their intentions were, they end up looking like old Stain style iron fist douchewaffles with a penis complex. And when, for instance, talking trade with the politically correct hug-fest that W. Europe has become lately, that's not an image to project.

Yeah, but iff they just don't give a shit, isn't that just begging the question? And if they have no reason to give a shit about appearances then my question stands: Why has Russia miscalculated?

 

[Elianna]

In an interview with Costas, W says, with a straight face, that we are trying to "promote peace and harmony" and the he told Putin that "this violence is unacceptable"...

Gee, George... wow.

Look in the mirror much?

Amen brother!

 

[cantdog]

The Russian is one of the few nineteenth century empires to persist. It was land based, not overseas, and that makes it more difficult to disassemble, absent the will of the colonizing power.

We don't get to point fingers, here. We have been invading countries in our sphere when things don't go our way in them. Ask the Dominicans and Haitians, or El Salvador, or Panama.

Why didn't people intervene against us, when we did it? There were and are cogent reasons for the rest of the world exercising Rox's 'prudence' about that idea.

This sort of thing-- Georgia, I mean, though Haiti, too, I imagine, and Iraq-- is exactly what the UN was created to head off, and if not, to mitigate. Though still hopeful and still sometimes effective, there's a lot the UN can't do, especially now.

Pretty one-sided and horrific, isn't it? Yet all empires do fail, ultimately. Every one.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

The Russian is one of the few nineteenth century empires to persist. It was land based, not overseas, and that makes it more difficult to disassemble, absent the will of the colonizing power.

We don't get to point fingers, here. We have been invading countries in our sphere when things don't go our way in them. Ask the Dominicans and Haitians, or El Salvador, or Panama.

Why didn't people intervene against us, when we did it? There were and are cogent reasons for the rest of the world exercising Rox's 'prudence' about that idea.

This sort of thing-- Georgia, I mean, though Haiti, too, I imagine, and Iraq-- is exactly what the UN was created to head off, and if not, to mitigate. Though still hopeful and still sometimes effective, there's a lot the UN can't do, especially now.

Pretty one-sided and horrific, isn't it? Yet all empires do fail, ultimately. Every one.

Empires held together by force must eventually fail. Those held together by commerce and culture might have greater staying power. We need to return to the idea of a department of DEFENSE for our military. That is, after all, what was in the oath I took.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

But then he'd miss Women's Volleyball.


Name your poison (though I suppose we should forgo the vodka?). I get what you're feeling, including the seeming indifference of this forum to a real war. And I agree with your view of it all, as well.

Wish I could do more, but the people I wanted in office didn't get in, not either time I voted, and the one who did isn't going to do shit.

So let me do the only thing I can do and ask, Keebler, how the fuck are you? I know you're not in any good emotional/psychological state, but are you okay and safe there in Moscow? When a country goes to war, as we well know here, there is a tendency for patriots to come out of the woodwork and take to bashing--literally or figuratively--dissenters. Seriously. Are you okay?

First.... clearly I was wrong about the lack of interest here....

We only know what we hear...and since the media did not provide much information.... and our government was pre-occupied with the Olympics (but this morning Bush was quoted as "being firm with Putin", I bet THAT had Putin shaking in his boots).... so it is understandable...

And I really appreciate your concern for both my mental health and physical security... On this... do not be.... Well... my friend left Thursday (Polina above) and the the three shop girls could not get a ticket for the train so I was without companionship this weekend.. THAT did not help my mental health any!!

Moscow is remarkably un-affected by this... certainly nothing like the recent Euro 2008 football.... I had a young American/Russian (a recent graduate of William and Mary) ask me about the war on Friday evening.... but no one else seems to notice....

Do not misunderstand that.... They are being bombarded with the cruelities and slaughter being heaped upon S. Ossetia by the evil Georgians.... but nobody is in the streets or anything... unlike Gerogia apparently....

I do appreciate the concern.....

I do have pause to rethink one of my ideas, however. My idea that George should fly to Tblisi and tell the Russians to "Bomb my ass. motherfucker".... Someone remarked... " You DO understand who would then be President, don't you?"

Hmmm. Good point.... So now I think we should send Cheney with the same mission....

Thanks for the thoughts!

-KC

 

[DesertPirate]

Yeah, but iff they just don't give a shit, isn't that just begging the question? And if they have no reason to give a shit about appearances then my question stands: Why has Russia miscalculated?

Since when has Russia ever cared about appearances.
They pay lip service to it and then do what they planned all along. Think Hungary in 56 or Czechosolvakia in 68?
They do get confused when everyone is really upset but they rarely back down.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Maybe it is just deja vu or an old acid flashback kicking in but I swear this whole war and the pictures from it are from the movie "Wag the Dog"... even the name of the region sounds familiar.

If Willy Nelson releases the song "Old Shoe", I may freak out....



-KC

 

[Elianna]

Maybe it is just deja vu or an old acid flashback kicking in but I swear this whole war and the pictures from it are from the movie "Wag the Dog"... even the name of the region sounds familiar.

If Willy Nelson releases the song "Old Shoe", I may freak out....



-KC

Never saw that one. War just pisses me off, personally. I really think it's all about whose...um...artillery is bigger.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Dreams of Polina

Never saw that one. War just pisses me off, personally. I really think it's all about whose...um...artillery is bigger.

Well, actually, the rate of fire and the hits on target are also quite important...

At least I hope they are.



-KC

 

[Elianna]

Well, actually, the rate of fire and the hits on target are also quite important...

At least I hope they are.



-KC

Right.

Rate of fire... Hits on target... hmmm... okay.