Making Changes

[faeriefire]

I recently had a conversation that brought up failings. Weaknesses. Things to improve. There are traits within myself I want to change and for me that means making adjustments personally. The thought of changing for someone else or being monitored by another makes me antsy. Sorta independent that way

What I'm wondering is how comfortable people are with having negative traits pointed out? Is it ok for a sub to point out the paunch? A master to suggest dance lesson? A friend to give you an honest answer about her interpretation of your IQ level when it comes to dating?

How do people deal with criticism? And do you think it's ok to make changes in yourself based on another's opinion?

With the D/s dynamic it seems it would be natural for one person to exert influence over another's activities. Do PYLs use their position for betterment of their subs? Do pyls make suggestions or take action to 'improve' their partner?

Do you think people are actually able to accept others as they are? Or is there a persistent desire to change someone else for the better? And if so is that ok?

Feel free to answer all or part...I know I'm rambling a bit lol...but any insight as to how people accept criticism and respond would be very helpful. Thanks in advance.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm still half asleep so will take you up on the option of answering in part until later. IMO, a person can only make changes when they feel it is required and can embrace those changes personally and fully. Changing for someone else at best usually is just a illusion of change, at worst contributes to a very confused and lost person. I think criticism can be constructive, it all depends on the acceptance of the one receiving it, and the manner and intent with which it is delivered.

Some PYL's may have wisdom to see faults, and /or areas open to improvement where the pyl can't, but so often, as you sort of pointed out, they can be just as blind to their own shortcomings or just not interested in improvement themselves as for it to then become very much a destructive and obviously pointed form of criticism instead of constructive guidance or advice for possible improvement. Of course, it is also worth noting that just because someone feels another should change or improve something about themselves, does not make it or them right, just right according to their opinion, taste and personality, and sometimes mood.

Catalina

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Before I became a TPE slave, I wouldn't have responded positively to general criticism or a dom's desire to change me into whatever he considered a better sub to be. Now that I am my Master's property, I accept that my personality is going to be significantly influenced by his requirements of me as we grow and mature together.

Master wants to lose weight and get into shape, he also has other life goals that a vanilla SO would probably nag gently about on a fairly regular basis out of a loving desire to help him get motivated. I'm really not in a position to do that. Master often says that he wants my support with these things, so I cook healthy, low fat food for him. If however, he eats the food I've cooked and then goes to the corner shop for a king size Mars bar, any tutting from me will be received with bad grace. So I am supportive through my service and actions, but it's not my place to mutter in his ear like Jiminy Cricket.

Master does point out areas where I can improve both as a slave and a person. He's not critical in an abusive or negative way, he just expects me to be the best person I can be so that I am an optimum slave and life partner. One of my main failings is with my skin. I have eczema and urticaria and both conditions cause terrible itching. I know damn well that scratching only makes things worse but it's an incredibly difficult impulse to resist. Master has therefore decided to 'help' me with this by ordering me not to scratch my skin and he even puts me in handcuffs to sleep at night as one of my worst problems is scratching my skin while I'm asleep and waking up to find myself covered in lacerations the next day. So his approach to being supportive is a lot more direct than mine.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

"People think a soul mate is your perfect fit, and that’s what everyone wants. But a true soul mate is a mirror, the person who shows you everything that’s holding you back, the person who brings you to your own attention so you can change your life. A true soul mate is probably the most important person you’ll ever meet, because they tear down your walls and smack you awake. And thank God for that."

This quote fits me and my little girl best. I have learned a lot about myself being with her. I want to make myself a better person not only for her but for myself.

We both have pointed out the other person's areas that need improvement. Most of the time we already know about it but sometimes you just need someone you love to point them out to finally want to do something about it.

Even though she is my slave and I am her Master does not mean we can't learn from each other.

 

[00Syd]

I think it all depends on the relationship between the people doing the criticizing and the people being criticized. For example, my mother and I are constantly whispering to each other "suck it in!" but if anyone else told me that I'd likely be insulted. My (sort of, more like really good friend at this point... goddamn its complicated) boyfriend tells me when I'm being ridiculously stubborn or fatalistic and I know that he is trying to help me but if anyone else told me "goddamn it your just being stubborn!" I'd probably tell them to fuck off. Its alllll relational.

 

[EmpressFi]

The three of us are trying to lose weight, so in that respect, yeah, I am, at sometimes, a diet nazi to them both (albeit a bad one because I cave). I give support and suggestions to Master, of things he can do where he is. It's harder for him because Malin and I have each other to lean on when times get rough..he doesnt have a strong support system where he lives.

I accept and love them the way they are. If either of them told me today that they didnt want to diet anymore, that would be fine with me. I love the person, the entire person.

The only time I nag "like a vanilla SO" is with homework. He's currently trying to finish college and I help with some of the coursework. Sometimes, he gets distracted or stops being motivated to finish and I will type out "*snaps fingers* Homework!" to remind him of what we're trying to do. And I will nag the crap out of him to get him to focus. At that point, he calls me babydomme instead of babydoll.

I dont see that my nagging or suggesting or reminding him are me being more dominant..if anything.. it is me being who I am..his submissive, his slave.. I'm not bringing him to task, I'm doing what I can to support him now because I know he'll only fret about it later.

I'll admit, I dont take criticisms well. I firstly get defensive, and then all kinds of hurt feelings, but I am trying to get better and listen to what's being said to me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I dont see that my nagging or suggesting or reminding him are me being more dominant..if anything.. it is me being who I am..his submissive, his slave.. I'm not bringing him to task, I'm doing what I can to support him now because I know he'll only fret about it later.

I can relate well. For us it is set as part of my role as a slave in that by reminding him, pricking his conscience on things he has requested I do so, I am serving him. He wants to lose weight...I cook healthy food etc., but he acknowledges that it sometimes takes more than that, especially since quitting smoking, so though he might get cranky when I do it, he wants me to say something when I see him looking for snacks or goodies...what he does after that is his decision. It extends into many areas where he wants me to offer extra support, provide a voice to counteract his own, and at times offer my opinion with reasoning on a decision he may be trying to make and needs to double check he is thinking effectively. Takes a strong and grounded PYL to admit they have temptations, difficulties with particular things, and acknowledge their own weaknesses...takes a smart one to then set their pyl the task of playing an active role in helping them with these areas.

Catalina

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Takes a strong and grounded PYL to admit they have temptations, difficulties with particular things, and acknowledge their own weaknesses...takes a smart one to then set their pyl the task of playing an active role in helping them with these areas.

Catalina

I agree with this and when Master and I are having quiet time together I can speak very frankly and mention things that he is trying to achieve so that they remain prescient in his thoughts. He does confide in me a lot and it does help him to clarify his thoughts and goals and get motivated.

He used to ask me to nag about certain things but it just created friction because I am not one of nature's naggers and it felt unnatural to me. Also, he hardly ever took any notice and if he was in a particularly bad mood my loving nudges would have the opposite effect because he'd get belligerent. Nagging him like a parent made him act like a child and it was very bad for us as a couple.

Some days, all I have to do is look at him. He knows what I would like to say and he also knows I'm not saying it and appreciates my self control and respect for him. He'll often put down the snack or stomp off to the cellar to work out just through this silent communication. We've found it's a much more effective way of operating.

 

[SweetGigi]

I believe there is such a thing as constructive criticism, yes. I am in full support of such opinions and intentions. I try to always be as open as possible to the words, wisdom and advice of others, but I'm also just as aware and conscious of the critic's intension and underlying reasons for their opinion.
Like Cat, I feel a person is entitled to their feelings and opinion, but that doesn't mean they are right, just right in their mind. Everyone's opinion is relative and subjective according to how much weight you give it and the situational surroundings of the opinion itself.
What it boils down to, for me, is it all depends on where someone's intentions lie. If there is an underlying method to their opinion or hidden agenda, it takes away from their validity and gives less merit to their words/opinion. If their intentions are found to be more genuine and good willed, then their opinion will have more weight and merit.
You just have to learn to take everything with a grain of salt and apply it how and where it is necessary to your life.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with this and when Master and I are having quiet time together I can speak very frankly and mention things that he is trying to achieve so that they remain prescient in his thoughts. He does confide in me a lot and it does help him to clarify his thoughts and goals and get motivated.

He used to ask me to nag about certain things but it just created friction because I am not one of nature's naggers and it felt unnatural to me. Also, he hardly ever took any notice and if he was in a particularly bad mood my loving nudges would have the opposite effect because he'd get belligerent. Nagging him like a parent made him act like a child and it was very bad for us as a couple.

Some days, all I have to do is look at him. He knows what I would like to say and he also knows I'm not saying it and appreciates my self control and respect for him. He'll often put down the snack or stomp off to the cellar to work out just through this silent communication. We've found it's a much more effective way of operating.

LOL, you are fortunate he is so considerate. We have discussed it for similar difficulties and discomfort involved, but his response has been it is not about how I feel, whether it means he is going to snap back or get moody, it is about serving with his best interests in mind regardless of whether he might agree in the heat of the moment or whether I feel comfortable doing it and taking whatever shit befalls me for doing it.

Catalina

 

[SweetGigi]

so my question is how does the PYL distinguish between the pyl being insubordinate and being well intentioned if he is closed to the concept to begin with?

 

[EmpressFi]

so my question is how does the PYL distinguish between the pyl being insubordinate and being well intentioned if he is closed to the concept to begin with?

I'm afraid I dont understand what you're asking.

The only way I could think it would be me being insubordinate to remind him that whatever he's eating isnt on plan or that he needs to turn the TV off to remain focused on homework.. is if he explicitly said, leave me alone, it's my business.


otherwise, it is my concern for his health, the knowledge that he leans on me for support, in fact it's almost part of how I show my service to him in being the rock he needs. And if I dont keep him focused, then I'm failing him.

If he's closed to the concept to begin with, then I wouldnt dream of sticking my nose in, in the first place, so it wouldnt be an issue

 

[faeriefire]

...<snip>... I'll admit, I dont take criticisms well. I firstly get defensive, and then all kinds of hurt feelings, but I am trying to get better and listen to what's being said to me.

Fi, thank you so much for this quote. It's part of why I posted in the first place. I have an immediate gut-clenching response if I take something said as being a criticism. I've made a concerted effort of late to take a step back and ask the person what they meant, and what I've realized is that oftentimes things said that sound critical are purely being on different pages. Another perspective or perhaps playful teasing that is not meant to hurt.

Catalina, Velvet, Gigi thank you so much for the perspectives and examples. I have to admit I was kinda entertained by the thought of sleeping in handcuffs and the insight you provided will definately stay with me. I may have to perfect that 'look' one day hehe.

I do agree that the level of importance I place is another's opinion is largely determined by our relationship and my level of trust in them. I think part of the problem is that I grew up expecting criticism and now I am oftentimes overly sensitive to remarks that are not derogatory by I take as such.

I do still wonder about changing another person. Weight is clear enough. Healthy. Positive. Something you can be a support system for. What about something like education? books you've read? knowledge of a subject matter a PYL or pyl bones up on to understand their partner...do you think this is also positive? Or does the process of 'improving' someone (assuming they do it) going to change them to the point that they become focussed on pleasing another and lose track of themselves

...I'm not just talking 'go read this book' but more like 'here's a list of things you need to do to be an interesting person'...when it gets to that point my gut reaction is 'I'm good enough the way I am' and 'go find someone who meets your specifications'. That doesn't mean the list wouldn't be helpful...just that it feels too much like a criticism of my good qualities, like saying 'you aren't good enough the way you are'. Have others run into this? There's a chance I'm being overly sensitive again I just worry that actually acting on change that isn't based in encouragement might cause a loss of respect, either in myself or in the person who's making the suggestions.

 

[SweetGigi]

I'm afraid I dont understand what you're asking.

The only way I could think it would be me being insubordinate to remind him that whatever he's eating isnt on plan or that he needs to turn the TV off to remain focused on homework.. is if he explicitly said, leave me alone, it's my business.


otherwise, it is my concern for his health, the knowledge that he leans on me for support, in fact it's almost part of how I show my service to him in being the rock he needs. And if I dont keep him focused, then I'm failing him.

If he's closed to the concept to begin with, then I wouldnt dream of sticking my nose in, in the first place, so it wouldnt be an issue

No, no, you got it. This was exactly what I was asking. So it isn't insubordination if he has previously asked you to keep him accountable for his actions. Ok, good.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I do still wonder about changing another person. Weight is clear enough. Healthy. Positive. Something you can be a support system for. What about something like education? books you've read? knowledge of a subject matter a PYL or pyl bones up on to understand their partner...do you think this is also positive? Or does the process of 'improving' someone (assuming they do it) going to change them to the point that they become focussed on pleasing another and lose track of themselves.

An example I can readily think of is that --rebecca-<--@ (hope I've got that right) spoke once about learning about her husband's business in order to better serve him. She wanted to be able to discuss his work with him on an equal and constructive level. Examples like that always give me motivation to be a better slave. Master works in IT and even if I read books about it all day I still wouldn't have a clue what he actually does. My brain simply doesn't assimilate information like that. He has tried to give me help and training just with the simply things I do online and try as I might (and I'm an intelligent graduate) I just don't have the right kind of grey matter to understand IT.

 

[EmpressFi]

An example I can readily think of is that --rebecca-<--@ (hope I've got that right) spoke once about learning about her husband's business in order to better serve him. She wanted to be able to discuss his work with him on an equal and constructive level. Examples like that always give me motivation to be a better slave. Master works in IT and even if I read books about it all day I still wouldn't have a clue what he actually does. My brain simply doesn't assimilate information like that. He has tried to give me help and training just with the simply things I do online and try as I might (and I'm an intelligent graduate) I just don't have the right kind of grey matter to understand IT.

not in the same exact vein... there are things I've learned werent to make me a better person, but like Rebecca, to give us other things in common. we already had star wars and Star Wars galaxies..but now we have music styles and nascar

 

[TenJed69]

Tbh this is an area I really hope to improve on in my relationship. My sub does NOT like to hear about personal failings. Sure, I can tell her she didn't do the dishes right or she didn't suck cock well enough or she was late meeting me but anything more inherent like "tbh, I preferred the way your hair was" or "we could both do with losing a bit of weight, maybe we could go running together?" or "maybe if you focussed less on what you don't want to do and more on what you do..." and she flips out.

Now obviously I don't want to say "your hair looks ridiculous, you're too fat, and you're too negative", but no matter how subtle or tactful she hates it. None of that means I don't love her deeply... I just think it looks silly. THAT'S ALL, OK, YOU ASKED ME WHAT I THOUGHT, WHY AM I SUDDENLY THE BAD GUY HERE?

She is, however, welcome to point out my failings. I want her to. Respectfully, obviously, but if there's something I can improve then heck I want to improve. In a way, I'm sure she wants to improve too. She just doesn't want to know about it first

 

[Homburg]

"Why are you focusing on possible negatives when you have so many positive things to enjoy?"

"You are too fucking negative. Cease."

I've done both, with the same person. Different situations, different times, different needs in that situation, and both were precisely effective and evoked the correct response. And I was later thanked for the latter.

The point is that something like this is far to individually specific to give too much blanket advice. Each person will deal with such input in different ways, and those ways will be different depending on what person is giving them the input. As someone else said, it is relational.

To give a specific example, I have many friends that are unhappy with their weight. In the past two years, I have lost a lot of fat and gained a load of muscle, and have helped others do the same. So I get people coming to me for advice and help. I'll help anybody that wants to be helped, but the only way those folks succeed is if they REALLY want it. My buddy AP really wanted it. He's now in literally the best shape of his life and looks good and buff. Other people? Not so successful.

There is a line from "Screw the roses, give me the thorns" that says "I can manke a woman do anything she really wants to do." I dig that line. Sure, I can push a slave farther, and I can really set up horribly brutal scenarios in which lack of compliance would be met with horrific punishment. Fear is an effective motivator. It also may just motivate her ass right out the door, like it did with a friend of mine and her owner. He'd cane her ten strokes for every pound she was over her target weight. This lead to incredible anxiety and food issues that she carries to this day, years after leaving that asshole. No, thanks.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Tbh this is an area I really hope to improve on in my relationship. My sub does NOT like to hear about personal failings. Sure, I can tell her she didn't do the dishes right or she didn't suck cock well enough or she was late meeting me but anything more inherent like "tbh, I preferred the way your hair was" or "we could both do with losing a bit of weight, maybe we could go running together?" or "maybe if you focussed less on what you don't want to do and more on what you do..." and she flips out.

Now obviously I don't want to say "your hair looks ridiculous, you're too fat, and you're too negative", but no matter how subtle or tactful she hates it. None of that means I don't love her deeply... I just think it looks silly. THAT'S ALL, OK, YOU ASKED ME WHAT I THOUGHT, WHY AM I SUDDENLY THE BAD GUY HERE?

She is, however, welcome to point out my failings. I want her to. Respectfully, obviously, but if there's something I can improve then heck I want to improve. In a way, I'm sure she wants to improve too. She just doesn't want to know about it first

This always sounds like insecurity to me. I might rail inwardly when Master brings my failings to my attention but he usually has a point. He motivates me to be the best person that I can be and I really can't resent him for that. My trust in him is pretty much absolute. I don't know what your lady's issues are but there must be something underlying for her to be so automatically defensive.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

There is a line from "Screw the roses, give me the thorns" that says "I can manke a woman do anything she really wants to do." I dig that line. Sure, I can push a slave farther, and I can really set up horribly brutal scenarios in which lack of compliance would be met with horrific punishment. Fear is an effective motivator. It also may just motivate her ass right out the door, like it did with a friend of mine and her owner. He'd cane her ten strokes for every pound she was over her target weight. This lead to incredible anxiety and food issues that she carries to this day, years after leaving that asshole. No, thanks.

My goodness, how can people be so blinkered and arrogant? That poor woman.

 

[faeriefire]

Tbh this is an area I really hope to improve on in my relationship. My sub does NOT like to hear about personal failings. Sure, I can tell her she didn't do the dishes right or she didn't suck cock well enough or she was late meeting me but anything more inherent like "tbh, I preferred the way your hair was" or "we could both do with losing a bit of weight, maybe we could go running together?" or "maybe if you focussed less on what you don't want to do and more on what you do..." and she flips out.

Now obviously I don't want to say "your hair looks ridiculous, you're too fat, and you're too negative", but no matter how subtle or tactful she hates it. None of that means I don't love her deeply... I just think it looks silly. THAT'S ALL, OK, YOU ASKED ME WHAT I THOUGHT, WHY AM I SUDDENLY THE BAD GUY HERE?

She is, however, welcome to point out my failings. I want her to. Respectfully, obviously, but if there's something I can improve then heck I want to improve. In a way, I'm sure she wants to improve too. She just doesn't want to know about it first

Ok, this resonates with me because I grew up with a similar sorta thing. Chasms of silence, areas you can't talk about, sometimes an irrational overreaction to well-intended suggestions. And resentment. Just be careful. If you spend your relationship walking on eggshells then there's potential for it to become nasty. In my case the person was at the extreme end, undiagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder. For weeks they would be loving and considerate. Then an outburst would have the rest of us scrambling not to piss 'em off more, doing our best to never hit that button again. I think it's ok for some things to be private, for some things to be 'off-limits'. That said if someone can't accept criticism and deal with it constructively then those lines will continue to be pushed. And eventually there will be nothing it's safe to talk about.

Most people are self-critical. For me if I overreact to something harsh it's usually because I believe it myself already so it hits me harder than if I just took it as intended. It's a conscious effort with me to try and set emotion aside and consider what has been said, if it has merit, and then what I want to do about it. Everyone seems to have a different method and given the size of the self-help section in bookstores it seems a lot of people want to improve themselves.

Sometimes a gentle nudge from a friend or a suggestion from a partner is enough to get the ball rolling. Sometimes a criticism does the opposite and convinces people to entrench and pretend the bad trait doesn't exist. Either way I think relationships thrive on open communication and if one partner is not allowed to be honest the power is given into in the hands of the one setting those lines down.

 

[twysted73]

It's in my PM little one.

 

[TenJed69]

Well, no argument here. It frustrates me not only because it's dumb, but because it means I don't get to exercise the power I do in other areas. And to be honest, those areas aren't that important. Making her do pointless shit for the heck of it, it's fun but it doesn't mean a whole lot. To make her into a better person, that's what I want to do. Early days though

 

[faeriefire]

"Why are you focusing on possible negatives when you have so many positive things to enjoy?" "You are too fucking negative. Cease."

I'm an info gatherer and a rather curious individual. Introspection and understanding have been good to me. I know there's lotsa good to enjoy and most days I do just that. I'm also headed back into the lions den as it were with one who uses criticism effectively to control the whole fam. My goal is to break the mold and fly free...

There is a line from "Screw the roses, give me the thorns" that says "I can manke a woman do anything she really wants to do." I dig that line.

Will remember this quote for sure...the truth is so very sublime

 

[twysted73]

I'm an info gatherer and a rather curious individual. Introspection and understanding have been good to me. I know there's lotsa good to enjoy and most days I do just that.

Don;t you change that. It's one of your many appealing qualities.

I'm also headed back into the lions den as it were with one who uses criticism effectively to control the whole fam. My goal is to break the mold and fly free...

Arming yourself agianst a known threat (to one's individuality) is smart tactics.
Worst tragedy I can think of is someone who allows someone else to supress or self-supresses their own spirit's beauty.

Don't change unless it's to become more of what you already are.

Delightful.