Geisha Identification

[TeachMeSir]

Does anybody else identify with the art of geisha?

There are many levels that appeal to me. While I feel my submission is not purely service based, I think there are aspects of the geisha that I would like to try & emulate.

Geishas, as far as my limited knowledge allows, are "performers" or "enterainers". They are trained in the skill of pleasing a man. They do this though obvious activities such as dancing or playing an instrument. Or perhaps with a tea service. And they study the art of conversation, listening & enticing their clients to admire & desire them. Of course I understand that traditional geishas are not prostitutes, or sex workers.

It is their ability to hold the atention of men with their art, while still being unobtrusive or demanding that lends to their enigma.

I owuld love to hear what anybody else has to say. And for all the PYL's, is this something that appeals to you when you are in your less sadistic moments?

 

[BiBunny]

No, because I don't see geisha as submissive at all. It's like when I get a call from a "Dom." I'm not really being submissive to him. I'm pretending to be because that's what he's paying for. I'm acting, and all acting is is a form of manipulation. It's a fantasy, and both of us know it. That's what the geisha/men thing looks like to me.

 

[TeachMeSir]

I didn't mean to imply that a Geishs is submissive. What I meant was that there are some activities that they perform that I would like to incorporate into my submission. Services I would like to provide. I understand they are not "professional submissives", just as when you get a call form a Dom you do not submit. But I can see it included as part of my submission, but firstly I would have to actually submit, otherwise I would just be manipulating as you suggested.

 

[intothewoods]

I didn't mean to imply that a Geishs is submissive. What I meant was that there are some activities that they perform that I would like to incorporate into my submission. Services I would like to provide. I understand they are not "professional submissives", just as when you get a call form a Dom you do not submit. But I can see it included as part of my submission, but firstly I would have to actually submit, otherwise I would just be manipulating as you suggested.

Actually, they kind of are professional submissives.

 

[TeachMeSir]

Actually, they kind of are professional submissives.

Really, I will confess to a lack of knowledge. I see them more as entertainers. If this is through their submissive type behaviour then I will accept that they are professional submissives in some instances, but I'm not sure that either way is the full story.

The part that interests me is more the art of entertainment, of pleasing a man. Their motivations behind their service or possible submission I imagine owuld be very varied, as it is for each submissive, and so it is not to their motivation that I identify, simply their duties.

Does anybody have a comment of their art?

 

[rida]

I'd say that the simple way to define Geisha and their services would be hostesses. Their duty was to be able to hold conversations, entertain and be pretty. As such they would enter a house very young and go through extensive studies such music, drama, reading and so on. Now we have to remember that their flourishing time was a time when literacy was not easily and readily available, especially to women. Entering a geisha house was for some a way to rise themselves above their birth status.

Of course all those studies were expensive. As such there would often be one customer that would be their patron and basically pay for her keeping (and somewhat own her).
As for sex, we need to remember that Japanese society, especially back then was much much less prude than the US (mixed public bath were the norm and rumor has it that there was a time when it was common practice for single women wanting a night of "fun" to leave their windows open ...).

Ultimately their job was to please the man/men that were hiring their services. By being a nice conversationalist, a good actress/music player/dancer, and by ultimately letting them have a good time.

 

[TeachMeSir]

.....

 

[intothewoods]

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=522209&highlight=geisha

Someone was kind enough to point me in this direction. I haven;t taken the time to read the whole thread yet, but if there is anyone else out there with a desire to learn more it looks very informative.

Thanks.

I think somewhere in that thread I posted my interest in mimicking geishas, as part of submissive service. Now that kind of makes me chuckle. Don't get me wrong - I think it could be kind of cool as part of a scene where a submissive is providing service in an ultra-formal way, basically as part of the creation of a fantasy. But it is a fantasy.

 

[Netzach]

I think the vast majority of Westerners totally miss on the significance and nuances of this - I've got passing acquaintance of one person who's made kanzashi and kimono her chosen arts and there's so much involved in these things the mind boggles.

 

[intothewoods]

I think the vast majority of Westerners totally miss on the significance and nuances of this - I've got passing acquaintance of one person who's made kanzashi and kimono her chosen arts and there's so much involved in these things the mind boggles.

I've seen several really cool documentaries that have enlightened me. It is amazingly involved and detailed.

 

[YourCaptor]

Does anybody else identify with the art of geisha?

There are many levels that appeal to me. While I feel my submission is not purely service based, I think there are aspects of the geisha that I would like to try & emulate.

Geishas, as far as my limited knowledge allows, are "performers" or "enterainers". They are trained in the skill of pleasing a man. They do this though obvious activities such as dancing or playing an instrument. Or perhaps with a tea service. And they study the art of conversation, listening & enticing their clients to admire & desire them. Of course I understand that traditional geishas are not prostitutes, or sex workers.

It is their ability to hold the atention of men with their art, while still being unobtrusive or demanding that lends to their enigma.

I owuld love to hear what anybody else has to say. And for all the PYL's, is this something that appeals to you when you are in your less sadistic moments?

Well, if I recall correctly, the geisha profession stems from prostitution, and some early full blown geishas would still perform sexual acts.

Honestly though, I think geishas are all sex, if they where not who would give a damn. I mean remove all sex related things from a geisha, what is left... that waitress that calls you hun and ends up on the karaoke stage later on.

Basically, geishas play the perfect girlfriend, but just short of blowjobs and getting laid. They don't quite meet sub par either, too professional for that.

Actually, they kind of are professional submissives.

I think geishas are subs, if you look at how they live, every single moment of their life is geisha consumed. You have to be a sub to live like that.

 

[madetotakeit]

Geisha's were not the equivalent of prostitutes nor even considered in the same category until well into the 20th century. If I remember correctly the translation is closer to artist than performer. I see them as being very submissive. They learned specific skills to please the powerful men who would see them. To me it is the height of elegance. Every movement is practiced to display nuances. The purpose is simply to please, enthrall. They would not have sex with every man that hired them.

I've long been fascinated by Geisha's and have identified with them in many ways. To me they are the epitome of graceful and are overtly feminine. I can see it in a submissive light as more than just service submissive. There is that angle as well, but not the entirety. Practicing the moves until they flow, knowing that if they are not done correctly then there will be displeasure. I love the idea of having that as a task. Working on the goal just because it would please him. The pride in myself when I showed what I had learned.

You definitely aren't alone in being interested in this TMS.

 

[Breaker_Morant]

Well, if I recall correctly, the geisha profession stems from prostitution, and some early full blown geishas would still perform sexual acts.

Actually the rule about the original geishas was "look but don't touch". Originally geishas were conceived to give their clients pleasure in a non-sexual way - they might specialize in singing, playing music or games or some other form of entertainment for their client.

There were other women available for "pillowing" as it was called and they would perform any and everything necessary to get their client off - but again the geishas were "look but don't touch".

I think geishas are subs, if you look at how they live, every single moment of their life is geisha consumed. You have to be a sub to live like that.

There is a difference between being passive and submissive. Geishas were passive because their JOB was about giving their client pleasure - because they were PAID to.

 

[EmpressFi]

Geisha's pronounced "gay-sha" are not and never have been prostitutes (at least not according to wiki )

Around the time of WWII, there were geisha girls, pronounced "gee-sha" and they used the costumes of the full geisha to be prostitutes for the American soldiers.

perhaps that's where the stigma comes from

 

[YourCaptor]

There is a difference between being passive and submissive. Geishas were passive because their JOB was about giving their client pleasure - because they were PAID to.

It takes more then just being passive to be a geisha. Its a 24/7 thing, and work every minute of it, even when they sleep it must be in a certain way, they endure a lot of pain to get their feet and scalp molded correctly. Its not a job, its not even work, its a lifestyle. Money is a tricky issue a geisha has to buy all her stuff, which is impossible on her own, so she ends up in debt to the house she works at, it takes a lot of time just to pay for that. For the first part of their career they make nothing.

 

[FurryFury]

Yes, I identify. I've enjoyed reading about this special segment of society in history.

 

[twysted73]

* looks around *

What a very nice thread you've started bd.

You asked PYL's to chime in on what attracts them to this?

Here are mine.

It's elegance and practiced precision are artful, graceful and beautiful.
I remember witnessing a tea service performed by a rather attractive Japanese girl. The balancing, the measured movements...I was entranced by it.
When it was done, I wanted to thank her but it hadn't been performed solely for me and so deferred to the true recipient.

You know about my interest in Gorean. The great potential for mistakes and punishments asside (supresses the sadist) it's simply something to be appreciated for it's unique beauty.

You, my dear, would make a splendid candidate.
When you focus, you are especially graceful.
(I've caught you being so even when you aren't focusing)

 

[catalina_francisco]

rebecca is much more knowledgeable about such things than I, but I can say geishas are not prostitutes, nor do they provide sexual services or even intimacy of a sexual nature. They may flirt, but this is one of the many things which are alluring...the temptation and illusion of what cannot be, sort of look and enjoy but don't touch. A geisha may be financially supported by a (usually) married man in past times for many years, and still would not provide sexual services, even if the relationship extended to love. This still remains true of today as reputation is everything and though they may have a relationship with a client, it is not casual, nor chosen at whim. Oiran OTOH do provide sexual services for a fee but are not geishas despite similar styles of dress and make up. The most visible difference is an oiran will wear her obi tied in a bow at the front of her kimono, whereas a geisha ties her bow to the back.

I see it as submissive in that is takes years of dedicated training to reach the highest ranks, not to mention a geisha has to remain single. To marry means giving up being a geisha. Geishas still remain in parts of Japan and are still trained in the same ways and over the same long periods of time. Some geishas are noted sor being a bit cheeky, but to me, spending that amount of time in rigid training, then having to adhere to that training 24/7 or be thrown out requires some sort of submissive nature beyond making a living....there has to be easier ways to earn a wage!!

Catalina

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I see it as submissive in that is takes years of dedicated training to reach the highest ranks, not to mention a geisha has to remain single.

I agree with this. Even if a girl was not submissive when she started training as a geisha, submission would be natural to her by the time she was a fully fledged hostess. Japanese society at that time was very patriarchal anyway so men were deferred to out of common courtesy.

TeachMeSir, you would love this book. It has the most wonderful story about a girl who is sold from a small village to a town and becomes a geisha. It is also a film that I enjoyed very much. The book is better though as the film had to cut a few things by necessity.

 

[TeachMeSir]

I agree with this. Even if a girl was not submissive when she started training as a geisha, submission would be natural to her by the time she was a fully fledged hostess. Japanese society at that time was very patriarchal anyway so men were deferred to out of common courtesy.

TeachMeSir, you would love this book. It has the most wonderful story about a girl who is sold from a small village to a town and becomes a geisha. It is also a film that I enjoyed very much. The book is better though as the film had to cut a few things by necessity.

Thanks Velvet, I have already read the book, numerous time in fact. I would love to go back & read it again since discivering my submissive nature. It will be like reading it in a completely new light, from a different persepective.

 

[Etoile]

#1: Geisha do not provide sexual services of any kind.
#2: Foot binding is no longer practiced in Japan or China.
#3: The Western concept of "submission" is very different from the Japanese version of submission; comparison between the two is illogical.
#4: Anyone interested in geisha should read Liza Dalby's books.

 

[TeachMeSir]

.....

 

[Etoile]

Thanks Etoile. I'll have a look at the books. Is there a particular one you would recommend or should I leave it up to my tastes?

I would start with her first one, simply called "Geisha" - it's 25 years old but it's still a delightful read. She is usually called the only non-Japanese person to become a geisha.

 

[catalina_francisco]

#2: Foot binding is no longer practiced in Japan.

I always thought foot binding was an exclusively Chinese custom. From my reading in the past I understood the Japanese outlawed it in Taiwan in the 1800's but did medical research into the effects etc., and found that binding the feet increased vaginal tightness. I never heard of it being done in Japan or by Japanese though. Learn something new everyday.

#3: The Western concept of "submission" is very different from the Japanese version of submission; comparison between the two is illogical.

While I agree there is in some ways a difference in the roots of submission in both cultures for some, I do not think it illogical to have a comparison for those who are submissive in much the same ways as we understand it in our own culture. Throughout my lifetime I have had many Japanese female friends who still live in Japan and believe me, though some have a spark of rebellion at some of the expected ways for them as women, all still are submissive and follow the same understanding of submission as I do when talking in generally understood mainstream terms within our culture. For most, any rebellion or criticism they may have of their place and role in the family, society, community is kept quiet only to be spoken about with trusted friends, while to all appearances they accept and fulfill their roles as expected. Some of the younger generation are more outspoken and moving away from the whole concept.

In terms of geisha's, while some, especially of modern times are not particularly submissive and see it as a profession just as any other (until marriage), for those in past times and who chose it themselves I think there is a level of submissiveness in that it is a highly service oriented vocation, and one whereby outspokenness, rudeness, disrespect, and presenting an air of superiority to men was not and would not be tolerated or acceptable. The training alone required a level or dedication and in some ways submissiveness toward those training them, and later those they served...many began their training as maids to the older and more experienced geishas while they were still children. It also is a service extended exclusively to men, thus the illusion of submission is highlighted there also. I do think western culture, particularly the US, have attached a lot to the term geisha which has never been true but is a perversion of their understanding of what it meant and was about.

Catalina

 

[Breaker_Morant]

I wonder if it is something in the Japanese culture that allows them to appreciate the skills of the geisha, while many of the Westerners first introduced to geishas were looking more towards the sexual aspects and hence the evolution of geisha girls. Now, this is a huge blanket statement, and I mean no disrespect, but perhaps Western men in this sense are lacking appreciation of the services Geishas provide, and are more looking at it as a sort of role-playing foreplay. The focus being on getting off, the end result rather than enjoying the journey?

Generally speaking, I would have to agree with you tms - I think we've had representative statements to that affect already.