FLDS compound

[renard_ruse]

There was a young woman on BBC radio last week that had escaped from this mob. She told stories about how, after her "marriage", her husband beat the shit out of her and repeatedly raped her. She was thirteen at the time.

You believe everything you hear on the radio?

 

[richard_daily]

Evidence that this was happening at the FLDS compound= NONE.

A fake "16yo" girl who was some angry nutter with a chip on her shoulder and chose to tell lies does not make a case.

It's certainly not good enough to take away hundreds of children from their parents.

Get a life.







.

Every single news report indicated "pregnant teens", but of course, you have the inside scoop... Why don't you let us in on it?

How do you know the 16 year old girl is fake?


Here's one of the articles I've read:



SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- Tipped that girls as young as 13 were being forced to enter "spiritual marriages," have sex and bear children, Texas officials raided an isolated polygamist retreat in West Texas, according to court documents released Tuesday.

The information came from a 16-year-old girl who called a family violence hot line March 29, "expressing the need to leave her current living situation," according to the affidavit.

The teen bride said she was in an abusive "spiritual" marriage to an older sect member, the documents stated. She reported that she was the man's seventh wife and had been beaten and choked.

She said she had been hospitalized in the past with cracked ribs and hoped to escape the abuse by faking a medical condition.

The allegations prompted police and social workers to remove hundreds of children from the 1,900-acre YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, the documents stated. The ranch was built by followers of imprisoned polygamist "prophet" Warren Steed Jeffs.

Girls deemed by adult sect members to be of "child-bearing age" were forced to submit to sex and have babies, according to the documents, which provided the legal basis for authorities to remove the children and place them in state custody.

The 16-year-old said her parents brought her to the ranch a year ago and she was "spiritually married to an adult male member of the church," the affidavit said.

According to the affidavit, the teen bride reported her husband "beat and hurt her whenever he got angry -- hitting her in the chest and choking her -- and that while such abuse was occurring, one of the other women in the home would hold her infant child."

On March 30, the teen called again. She told workers she was last beaten Easter Sunday. Her husband told her if she tried to leave the ranch "she would be found and locked up."

She said church members also told her if she left the ranch "outsiders will hurt her, force her to cut her hair, to wear makeup and [different] clothes and to have sex with lots of men."

The girl told shelter workers she was calling from someone else's cell phone to avoid being caught and whispered quietly during the conversations, according to the affidavit. At the end of the second call, the document states, she suddenly told workers "she is happy and fine and does not want to get into trouble and that everything she had previously said should be forgotten."

Authorities raided the ranch Thursday. Since then, 416 children have been removed and placed in the custody of the state's Child Protective Services, spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said.

Social workers have completed their work at the ranch, and said they believed all the children at risk had been removed, Meisner said.

It remains unclear whether the teen who reported being abused was among the children removed from the ranch or was taken from the compound under a different name before authorities arrived.

Court documents said evidence was found at the ranch indicating a pattern of arranging polygamous marriages between adult sect members and underage girls. See buses take girls from compound »

The affidavit said while child welfare workers and law enforcement officers were searching the ranch, they saw a number of apparently pregnant teen girls who appeared to be minors and others who already had children.

The affidavit said researchers also learned that children are "denied of nutrition" and forced to sit inside closed closets as punishment.

In addition to the children, 133 women have left the ranch voluntarily and joined the children in a shelter in San Angelo -- about 45 miles north of the ranch, Meisner said. No men were allowed, she said.

Future court hearings will determine whether there is enough evidence to keep the children from returning to the ranch. A hearing is scheduled April 17. The children will be appointed lawyers and legal guardians in about two weeks, Meisner said.

Two men have been arrested -- allegedly for interfering with the investigation, authorities said.

Levi Barlow Jeffs, 18, is accused of interfering with the duties of a public servant. Leroy Johnson Steed, 40, is accused of tampering with evidence. No further information was immediately available.

The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bought the ranch four years ago and began erecting dormitories and a large white temple. Hundreds of Jeffs' followers moved from Arizona and Utah as authorities there stepped up their own investigations.

The name is taken from one of Jeffs' spiritual songs, "Yearning for Zion."

The documents released Tuesday did not name the husband the teen bride accused of beating her. But last week, officers entered the compound with a search warrant for 50-year-old Dale Evans Barlow, who they believed was married to the 16-year-old tipster.

His whereabouts remain unclear, although some published reports said he is with his family in Colorado City, Arizona, and claims not to know his accuser. Barlow was not named in the affidavit.

CNN's previous visits to the ranch revealed the compound was guarded by armed men equipped with night-vision gear and other high-tech surveillance tools.

Authorities have not said whether they found weapons.

Jeffs remains jailed in Kingman, Arizona, where he awaits trial on four counts of incest and sexual conduct with a minor stemming from two arranged marriages between teenage girls and their older male relatives.

Jeffs was sentenced in November to two terms of 5 years to life for being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl who said she was forced to marry her cousin.
http://us.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/08/texas.ranch/index.html







Investigator Angie Voss, an investigator with the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services, indicated in testimony yesterday that some girls may have had children when they were minors.
She further testified that at least five girls who under the age of 18 are currently pregnant.

In her testimony, Voss also indicated that it was hard to tell underage teens from some of the younger adults. During the investigation concerns over the accuracy of age and status of some individuals became heightened as members gave different names and ages at various times when they were questioned.


A request has been made that DNA be taken from all of the children and their alleged parents in order to help determine biological connections. No ruling has been made, as yet, on that request.

Voss was a key witness yesterday in the custody hearing held in District Court concerning the 416 children removed from a ranch run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Letter Day Saints. The children were taken away during a three-day raid two weeks ago at the Yearning For Zion (YFZ) ranch where members of the polygamist sect lived.

When asked where the children were now, Voss indicated that most of them are being kept in a domed coliseum in San Angelo. They range in age from 6 months to 17 years, with approximately 130 under the age of 4.

Child welfare officials have claimed that the children were abused or in imminent danger of abuse because the sect encourages girls younger than 18 to marry and have children. Hundreds of lawyers descended on district court on Thursday, as representatives of the children to call for the families to be reunited.

Voss told the court that she was concerned about the way that the children as well as the mothers followed the orders of the church's leader, called their “prophet.” "The children reported that if the prophet heard from the Heavenly Father that they were to marry at any age, they were to do that,” Voss stated. “If the prophet said they were to lie, they were to do that.”

Currently the prophet is believed to be Warren Jeffs, who is currently in jail and awaiting trial in Kingman Arizona for promoting underage marriage. He had previously been convicted on sexual misconduct charges with regard to the rape of a 14-year-old girl.

Psychiatrist Bruce Perry, an expert in children involved in cults, testified Friday that the belief system used by the polygamous group is abusive. He had interviewed three teenage girls and spent time with other children.

He stated that teen girls do not resist getting married at an early age because absolute obedience and submission to authority is built into them since their earliest years. He stated that the girls believed they were marrying out of free choice, based on their upbringing.

"Obedience is a very important element of their belief system,” Perry stated, "Compliance is being godly, it's part of their honoring God."

He also testified that he had played with some of the boys and found them emotionally healthy. He also stated that many of the adults at the FLDS ranch are loving parents.

He still maintained that the sect's belief system is abusive. “The culture is very authoritarian," Perry concluded.

The scene in the courtroom was unique with the mothers dressed in plain cotton old-fashioned dresses, hair upswept in a bun and their lawyers in tailored suits.

Perhaps the most remarkable case of child custody in the history of the United States, the incident began with a phone call to local authorities by a 16-year old girl, identified as Sarah, who indicated her 49-year-old husband had beaten her.

 

[Ishmael]

There is still no evidence of any child abuse beyond the possible sexual abuse of a minor. Period.

Further, these girls are the victims, why are their children being ripped away from them by the state?

Why are those women over the age of consent having their children ripped away from them by the state? Is the states argument that they are accessories after the fact? How does that square with the assertion that they too were victims of this cult?

Why have none of the men been arrested?

Should these women have been moved to a battered woman shelter with their family such as it is intact?

Ishmael

 

[Sean]

There is still no evidence of any child abuse beyond the possible sexual abuse of a minor. Period.

Further, these girls are the victims, why are their children being ripped away from them by the state?

Why are those women over the age of consent having their children ripped away from them by the state? Is the states argument that they are accessories after the fact? How does that square with the assertion that they too were victims of this cult?

Why have none of the men been arrested?

Should these women have been moved to a battered woman shelter with their family such as it is intact?

Ishmael

Because it's standard procedure to seperate the kids from the parents while abuse allegations are being investigated.

 

[Ishmael]

Because it's standard procedure to seperate the kids from the parents while abuse allegations are being investigated.

So, if you abuse your wife it's SOP for the state to take the children away?

Ishmael

 

[Sean]

So, if you abuse your wife it's SOP for the state to take the children away?

Ishmael

We're talking about abuse of minors. Child protection takes precedence. As it should.

 

[Ishmael]

We're talking about abuse of minors. Child protection takes precedence. As it should.

The abuse was alledegly perpetrated against the minor mothers of these children, not their children. Why were the children taken away from these victims?

And that still doesn't adress the issue regarding the older women.

In each and every case of these alleged abuses it has been the male identified as the abuser.

From my perspective these women need help, not punishment.

I really don't care how repugnant you, or I, may find this cult. (And it is a cult.) You just don't go about righting a wrong by punishing the victims.

Ishmael

 

[richard_daily]

Because it's standard procedure to seperate the kids from the parents while abuse allegations are being investigated.

ishmael is just pissed that the age of consent laws aren't lower in FL. He can't seem to get anyone over the age of 18 to believe any of his bullshit.

 

[RoryN]

Be you male or female: in America, if you put children in danger, the state can intervene.

 

[Slowlane]

The abuse was alledegly perpetrated against the minor mothers of these children, not their children. Why were the children taken away from these victims?

And that still doesn't adress the issue regarding the older women.

In each and every case of these alleged abuses it has been the male identified as the abuser.

From my perspective these women need help, not punishment.

I really don't care how repugnant you, or I, may find this cult. (And it is a cult.) You just don't go about righting a wrong by punishing the victims.

Ishmael

Taking them all out of the compound and housing them in a state facility of some sort - even if it was a borrowed gymnasium in the local school - Should have been enough "protection" in this case. I see no reason the separate the mothers from their children. It was a heavy handed over reaction.

 

[renard_ruse]

Be you male or female: in America, if you put children in danger, the state can intervene.

Tell that to the 1.4 million babies "aborted" every year.

 

[Ishmael]

Taking them all out of the compound and housing them in a state facility of some sort - even if it was a borrowed gymnasium in the local school - Should have been enough "protection" in this case. I see no reason the separate the mothers from their children. It was a heavy handed over reaction.

That's my thought as well.

Ishmael

 

[Lovelynice]

The 16-year-old said her parents brought her to the ranch a year ago and she was "spiritually married to an adult male member of the church," the affidavit said.

According to the affidavit, the teen bride reported her husband "beat and hurt her whenever he got angry -- hitting her in the chest and choking her -- and that while such abuse was occurring, one of the other women in the home would hold her infant child."

I know that some people don't pay attention to the small details, but here's a biggie for you.

There was no "16" year old girl.

The caller was a fraud. They made up a story. That has already come out. It's been posted in this thread already too.


I suggest that you check the rest of your so-called facts too.

And taking away the kids from their parents on nothing more than a fraud, to an already known to dangerous environment (the Child Protective Services and their system) isn't going to make them safer,

The Child Kidnapping Services










.

 

[isthisdesire]

*looks for isthisdesire*

Goodness me, it got quiet in here all of a sudden...

yes, I do have a life outside of Lit.
I didn't know that wasn't allowed.

the fact is, D&C maintains polygamy is allowed, other statements from the church don't. you could argue all day about which is more "real."

but, like I said, I have a life outside Lit, so I'd rather not.
try it. it's nice.

 

[RoryN]

provide one shred of proof for what you say and maybe people would listen to you.

Why should I?...you'll just dispute whatever doesn't suit your view as not being true - same with anything else one could point to.

*evidence then provided by smartandsexy*

the fact is, D&C maintains polygamy is allowed, other statements from the church don't. you could argue all day about which is more "real."

Heh.

but, like I said, I have a life outside Lit, so...

Blah blah. Try saving face elsewhere.

 

[isthisdesire]

*evidence then provided by smartandsexy*



Heh.



Blah blah. Try saving face elsewhere.

how dare I leave Lit for any amount of time.
obviously I'm running from an argument.
oh wait, I responded to smartandsexy.
so yeah, you make no sense.

 

[RoryN]

how dare I leave Lit for any amount of time.
obviously I'm running from an argument.
oh wait, I responded to smartandsexy.

You did? Where?

 

[isthisdesire]

You did? Where?

you quoted it.

there is no disputing what is written in D&C. but the leader after Joseph Smith renounced the practice. if there's a contradiction in doctrine, that's life. it happens in every religion. you want to sit and say oh well, it's written in D&C - that's all that matters and ignore what happened after that. good for you. enjoy your blinders.

 

[smartandsexy]

you quoted it.

there is no disputing what is written in D&C. but the leader after Joseph Smith renounced the practice. if there's a contradiction in doctrine, that's life. it happens in every religion. you want to sit and say oh well, it's written in D&C - that's all that matters and ignore what happened after that. good for you. enjoy your blinders.

But one of the key features of the LDS faith is the idea of continuing revelation. The religion differs from many others in that their doctrine is constantly evolving. Other aspects of doctrine have been revised by prophetic revelation, yet D&C 132 hasn't, so I don't think it's fair to pass off doctrine as historical and superseded. Polygamy is still central to mormon spirituality.

The key part of my post that I think you may have missed is that the church condemns polygamy in this life, but not in a broader sense. How do you explain the fact that a man can still be sealed to more than one woman but that a woman can only ever be sealed to one man?

 

[isthisdesire]

The key part of my post that I think you may have missed is that the church condemns polygamy in this life, but not in a broader sense. How do you explain the fact that a man can still be sealed to more than one woman but that a woman can only ever be sealed to one man?

I'd like to see some scripture that says that.

 

[RoryN]

if there's a contradiction in doctrine, that's life. it happens in every religion.

The key part of my post that I think you may have missed is that the church condemns polygamy in this life, but not in a broader sense. How do you explain the fact that a man can still be sealed to more than one woman but that a woman can only ever be sealed to one man?

I'd like to see some scripture that says that.

Wait...I'm confused. Is doctrine (scripture) the final word, or isn't it?

Or is it only definitive when it suits your viewpoint?

 

[isthisdesire]

Wait...I'm confused. Is doctrine (scripture) the final word, or isn't it?

Or is it only definitive when it suits your viewpoint?

it is. I never implied it wasn't. it isn't my fault there are contractions. I've never read anything that says there'll be polygamy in the celestial kingdom but not on earth. I'm asking for proof that people aren't just saying things without any backing. smartandsexy is pretty good at backing up what she says. that's why I'm engaging in the conversation with her instead of you as you seem to have a fundamental problem with backing up what you say.

 

[RoryN]

it is. I never implied it wasn't.

This:

if there's a contradiction in doctrine, that's life. it happens in every religion.

...devalues the definitive word of doctrine. Unless you think hypocrisy is a solid foundation.

it isn't my fault there are contractions.

How convenient.

I'm asking for proof that people aren't just saying things without any backing. smartandsexy is pretty good at backing up what she says. that's why I'm engaging in the conversation with her instead of you as you seem to have a fundamental problem with backing up what you say.

Pot calling the kettle black.

 

[smartandsexy]

I'd like to see some scripture that says that.

It happens as a practical fact, frequently. There were multiple sealings in the early church, and that practice was never stopped. What was stopped was one man being sealed to two living women. As I said, polygamy is only prohibited in this life.

The following is taken from the Church Handbook of Instructions:

Sealing Policies

Sealing ordinances include covenants that can bind families together for eternity. These ordinances include (1) sealing of a husband and wife and (2) sealing of children to parents.

Stake presidents should contact the Office of the First Presidency or the temple in their temple district for guidance in special circumstances related to sealings that are not covered in these instructions.

Sealing of a Husband and Wife

Living Women

A living woman may be sealed to only one husband. If she is sealed to a husband and later divorced, she must receive a cancellation of that sealing from the First Presidency before she may be sealed to another man in her lifetime (see "Applying for a Cancellation of Sealing or a Sealing Clearance" on this page).

Deceased Women

A deceased woman may be sealed to all men to whom she was legally married during her life. However, if she was sealed to a husband during her life, all her husbands must be deceased before she can be sealed to a husband to whom she was not sealed during life.

Living Men

If a husband and wife have been sealed and the wife dies, the man may have another woman sealed to him if she is not already sealed.

http://ldsfreedom.org/PAGES/TOPICS_PAGES/Church_Handbook/chi00.htm

I italicised the relevant portions. The Church makes no secret of these policies and practices.

 

[isthisdesire]

This:



...devalues the definitive word of doctrine. Unless you think hypocrisy is a solid foundation.



How convenient.



Pot calling the kettle black.

I'm not a Mormon. it's not my job to validate the Mormon church's doctrine or defend their "foundations."

what claims have I made that I haven't backed up? any proof there either or you still pulling things out of your ass?