Constructive feedback...

[KarennaC]

... and maybe some votes, if you're so inclined.

My "Brown Eyes" series is continuing to struggle... Chapter 3 currently has a 3.0, and Chapter 4, which posted Friday, had made it to a 3.0, but now, thanks to sweeps, has a 1.5?!?!?

I already had a thread about Brown Eyes Chapter 3, so I won't post the link to that one here, but here's the link for Chapter 4. The one comment I've received on it so far, accompanied by a 0 vote, is that Javier's too controlling, which I already know; he's supposed to be. If anyone has any other tips on why this chapter might be doing so poorly, please help me out. Thanks!

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=358629

 

[drksideofthemoon]

First the bad news. It may be because I'm reading Chapter 4, but there's nothing compelling about the story. What's the point of this chapter? What were your goals when you wrote it? It felt more like I was just watching two people interact.

And again, maybe this is just because I'm reading Chapter 4, but what the point of the scene with the ex-husband calling, and the party that she leaves?

Now, the good news. I thought the technical side of your writing was fairly good. You used your characters to tell the story, and they felt real.

So in summation, I think maybe a lack of plot in this chapter may be the reason for the low voting, but that's only a guess.

 

[KarennaC]

Drkside, thanks for taking the time to read it I appreciate your feedback; you've given some good points. I'm thinking over the questions you've asked about my goals in writing this chapter; in a way it's kind of a transitional chapter, which may account for your perceiving a lack of plot. The scenes with the ex-husband are tied to things that happen in other chapters, and to Adrienne's low self-confidence, which is throughout the story.

Again, thank you for your feedback; it will be helpful as I write subsequent chapters

 

[Guest]

I read Chapter 4. There's absolutely nothing technically wrong with your writing, and you're obviously taking time to develop the characters. I agree with drk's comments about the lack of plot leading to low reader interest, but I'd like to offer another idea. And remember, it's just my two cents--your mileage may vary.

Emotionally, I find the whole chapter a bit flat. Even when Adrienne is agonizing over her mistakes--real or imagined--it seems to be written on the same level of intensity as the mechanics of getting her from one place to another.

I think Adrienne, as you've protrayed her, tends to think about her feelings, rather than actually feel them. I don't find descriptors that would tell me that she's feeling something strongly. I don't read anything about her fists clenching in determination, her face flushing in embarassment, her gaze turning away from Javier in discomfort, or a sick feeling in the pit of her stomach.

If your goal is to portray Adrienne as divorced from her feelings, well and good. But it doesn't make for exciting reading, in my opinion.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Yeah, your problem with this story isn't the story it's the Chapter. This is a SHORT STORY site, so the readers expect to see a story.

What you are writing is a novel/novella where chapters don't necessarily stand alone. If you want to post your novel/novella on Lit each chapter has to be a story in itself.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Karenna, I agree with drk and gnome, but I think Jenny is wrong for once. (No JJ, not the hairbrush)

Despite your good writing and use of dialogue and admitting I only read parts 1 and 4, there are two serious problems.

First, you have far too much 'clutter' in your writing. The conversational politenesses slow the plot down, doesn't add to progress and make the focus fuzzy. Every subordinate character and piece of dialogue should be to push the story forward. At times you halt the progress whilst you wallow in the shallows and the readers wonder why. This is not Jenny's 'Novels' point. As I know only too well, novels must be tightly plotted, with all unneccesary detail jettisoned.

There is no plot. This is a bit of diary/IM describing the painfully slow development of a relationship. We are outsiders, you have to make us care and, as others have said, we shrug and move on. The narrator has to make us care about the characters, and you leave them a bit bland.

Just a question. Why post in 'Interracial' cat? You are writing something that belongs in 'Romance' or 'Erotic Couplings'. There are unwritten rules here that afficionados of the race cat require big black cocks to pummel white pussies. You are not writing that kind of story so why post in that category?

I love the characters, your writing is good, but I get a bit bored with the trivia.

Elle

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Yeah, your problem with this story isn't the story it's the Chapter. This is a SHORT STORY site, so the readers expect to see a story.

What you are writing is a novel/novella where chapters don't necessarily stand alone. If you want to post your novel/novella on Lit each chapter has to be a story in itself.

Jenny, I'm with Elle on this. I don't agree that each chapter needs to be a stand alone story. I was quite successful with Montana Summer. I would resolve some issues with each chapter and introduce new ones, and usually end the chapter with a "cliffhanger" ending.

Each chapter does need to move the story along, and in the case of Karenna's, it didn't, it just seemed to tread water.

 

[KarennaC]

Thank you all for your comments. They'll be very helpful as I continue to work on this series, and when I work it over to attempt to publish it as a novel. It was originally intended to be just one short story, but then the story kept rolling out, which is part of the problem, I think.

I do tend to overwrite the minutiae, unfortunately. I'll work on tightening that up and leaving some of it out, though it's hard sometimes for me to tell what should be there and what shouldn't. That's what editors are for.

Elfin, I posted it in Interracial because it's about a white woman and a Latino man. The story definitely has elements of Erotic Couplings and Romance in it, but it seemed to me to belong in Interracial because, well, it is. Admittedly, I haven't read a lot of Interracial stories, but I've seen a handful that made mine seem a good fit for that category.

Thanks again, everyone

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Thank you all for your comments. They'll be very helpful as I continue to work on this series, and when I work it over to attempt to publish it as a novel. It was originally intended to be just one short story, but then the story kept rolling out, which is part of the problem, I think.

I do tend to overwrite the minutiae, unfortunately. I'll work on tightening that up and leaving some of it out, though it's hard sometimes for me to tell what should be there and what shouldn't. That's what editors are for.

Elfin, I posted it in Interracial because it's about a white woman and a Latino man. The story definitely has elements of Erotic Couplings and Romance in it, but it seemed to me to belong in Interracial because, well, it is. Admittedly, I haven't read a lot of Interracial stories, but I've seen a handful that made mine seem a good fit for that category.

Thanks again, everyone

I have some comments about the category. I don't think just because she is white and that he is Latino (or any other race) automatically signals the story belongs in the Interracial category.

I think the tone of the story should dictage where the story should be placed, and I agree with some of the comments, I think this story is better suited for Romance, or E/C.

I could be totally off in left field in this, but I think Interracial is best for stories where the idea of an interracial relationship is the driving force behind the story. E.G. The "forbidden" relationship between a black man/white woman, the mysterious allure of a white man/oriental woman.

 

[sr71plt]

I have some comments about the category. I don't think just because she is white and that he is Latino (or any other race) automatically signals the story belongs in the Interracial category.

I think the tone of the story should dictage where the story should be placed, and I agree with some of the comments, I think this story is better suited for Romance, or E/C.

I could be totally off in left field in this, but I think Interracial is best for stories where the idea of an interracial relationship is the driving force behind the story. E.G. The "forbidden" relationship between a black man/white woman, the mysterious allure of a white man/oriental woman.

OK, this is dicey, and I almost posted something on it earlier. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnic origin, not a race. (The U.S. Census Bureau has published a lot on this point, if you want to look it up.) Hispanics are technically Caucasians, as are Arabs/Persians. I've had trouble with this myself, in not really being able to identify my stories involving these as "interracial."

 

[drksideofthemoon]

OK, this is dicey, and I almost posted something on it earlier. Hispanic/Latino is an ethnic origin, not a race. (The U.S. Census Bureau has published a lot on this point, if you want to look it up.) Hispanics are technically Caucasians, as are Arabs/Persians. I've had trouble with this myself, in not really being able to identify my stories involving these as "interracial."

That's a good point.

 

[August_Bouvier]

About the relationship

There's a defensive undertone to this relationship that I think disrupts the intimacy that you're going for. You want your readers to root for the couple. Right now, I'm still unsure if Javier is good for Adrienne or if he's really into her.

I know you're trying to develop her so she stands up for herself, but he can come off as unsympathetic because he's aware of her negative self-talk--if he didn't it would be different. Yet he needles her, or throws some passive-aggressive remarks (You're attractive, but your negativity isn't.) instead of letting her be and giving her the space to express and accepting her. He can also be a little condescending. Example: "You didn't do it. You just didn't help."
I winced for A when I read that.

He also doesn't make her feel sexy and beautiful. He doesn't seem to enjoy her sensuality, her feminity. Not truly.
"Then touch me. You don't have to wait for permission." How about: Touch me, I love feeling your hands on me. [Or something to that effect that shows he finds her desirable, that she turns him on].

"That's putting me to sleep. Why don't we watch a movie? And we can go into the chat room." I wanted to smack Javier in the head. Why isn't he trying to find other fun, crazy ways for them to enjoy each other when he's got an attractive, willing woman who likes him in his place? Did he hurt his brain too?

The sex also felt very one sided, very much like Adrienne is denying herself or performing. [So much of their visit was focused on his pleasure, what about hers?] It fits with her character since if she's been in abusive situations where her individuality was mitigated. (His taking pictures of her could have been sexy, but within this context it felt like a violation and it came too soon in their relationship).

However, it's going to be more compelling if you break through this either with her voicing her wants or Javier encouraging her to do so, or if he actively nurtures her expression of herself. I think that's where your story is: Adrienne's empowerment and pushing her current frame of her sexuality.

Work on setting Javier apart from the pack, without him being the knight on the horse or closet bully. The content is there, keep refining it.

Out of curiosity, are you finding the first person account too intimate?

Best wishes,

A

 

[KarennaC]

Thanks for the clarification about the Interracial category I'm not going to recategorize the chapters I've already submitted (I'm in the Survivor contest, and changing the category of those would confuse things score-wise), but I might put the subsequent chapters in a different category. Though I'm not sure about separating chapters that way.

sr, good point about Hispanic/Latino.

August, you're right about Javier. He is at times unsympathetic and controlling. Adrienne's past has led her, at this point, to wanting to do just about anything to hang onto him, because in her mind he's the best thing that's ever happened to her, and even though she doesn't like some of the things he says and does, she tries to convince herself that it's okay. You're also correct that the real story is Adrienne gaining a sense of power and of herself, and not allowing herself to be treated this way.

Your last sentence busts me, in a way (and I may regret admitting this, but so be it). This is a true story. Which I think is part of the problem as far as what other people have said about lack of plot and it feeling like a diary; I've caught myself a few times spending too much energy on trying to remember the details, and not enough on developing it as a story. I'm working on fixing that with the remaining chapters. I think it's also the cause of what Gnome mentioned, about Adrienne thinking about her feelings rather than feeling them.

 

[August_Bouvier]

K,

The challenge seems to be in finding a middle ground between drawing from your experience and letting the story take on a life of its own.

Try writing a draft of the story as it now sits in your head, release all the ideas and experiences you have, then use it as a blueprint for a published version. You might very well wind up with a story that's different from your original vision.

It could also be that this venue isn't as geared towards the psychological exploration that this story is leaning towards in its current form.

As for the point of view, I wondered if it felt too intimate to you and if the third person perspective would've given you more detachment as a storyteller. That's just a sidebar.

You've been gracious and open. No regrets.


A

 

[KarennaC]

August, thank you Your comments are very helpful.

My original plan was to write this story as I wanted things to have been with "Javier". Instead, they keep going as things really were. Obviously I didn't have the distance I thought I had. However, your suggestion of using this as a blueprint is a good one. I do plan on submitting this to an e-publisher, and am planning to print out what I've written and subbed here so I can deconstruct and reconstruct it. Meanwhile, although I unfortunately submitted the next chapter before I posted this thread, I can use the feedback I've gotten here to improve the remaining chapters, and may now be able to persuade myself to write the story I wanted to write in the first place instead of what it's becoming.

Third person point of view probably would have been a better choice for me, but I tend to gravitate automatically to first; I didn't even think about it before I started writing Brown Eyes.

Thank you

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Every real editor I know of demands a drive-by shooting, a shark jumping into the boat, alligator attack or other attention grabber in close proximity to the start of each chapter or beginning of every story. An Oh! Shit! Moment.

Ambrose Bierce is excellent at the technique. Many of his best stories are on-line.

Another excellent source for attention grabbing openers is old newspaper articles, especially articles written from 1890-1910. People were lethally demonstrative back then, and the most sedate and tranquil people were often over-the-top with their responses to stimuli and provocations.

Like: "You can easily imagine Mrs. Jackson's surprise when she walked into her garden and saw a rattlesnake coiled atop her baby."

 

[windstormy]

Every real editor I know of demands a drive-by shooting, a shark jumping into the boat, alligator attack or other attention grabber in close proximity to the start of each chapter or beginning of every story. An Oh! Shit! Moment.

Ambrose Bierce is excellent at the technique. Many of his best stories are on-line.

Another excellent source for attention grabbing openers is old newspaper articles, especially articles written from 1890-1910. People were lethally demonstrative back then, and the most sedate and tranquil people were often over-the-top with their responses to stimuli and provocations.

Like: "You can easily imagine Mrs. Jackson's surprise when she walked into her garden and saw a rattlesnake coiled atop her baby."

I'd be more than surprised if a rattlesnake was coiled atop my baby! I'd go into panic mode and the snake would become public enemy number one!

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Karenna, you are being too nice to us.

I think August made a lot of incisive comments and I agree with sr. However, it is your story and you must screw your courage up and tell it as you want it told. Don't get hung up on things that actually happened, fictionalize them so that the story/emotion/message comes across to us.

The point here about category is important. What you are writing is not the normal fare of interracial - much better placed in erotic couplings or romance where the nuances can be drawn out. drk makes very good points about needing to write 'chapters' where you leave us wanting more.

There's a lot of brash stuff posted here but you have something with more of a story than most. Try being more of a narrator and stand back a bit and decide what you want us to feel. You are the maestro, wave your baton.

Elle

 

[sr71plt]

Yeah, your problem with this story isn't the story it's the Chapter. This is a SHORT STORY site, so the readers expect to see a story.

What you are writing is a novel/novella where chapters don't necessarily stand alone. If you want to post your novel/novella on Lit each chapter has to be a story in itself.

I agree with Jenny here (although I sort of wonder if she realizes it applies to those nonerotic stories she lionizes too). This is an erotica short story site. Most of the readers come here for instant gratification and heat. And a good many of those will react negatively if that's not what they get. The site is open to longer and nonerotic works, but it's really the problem of the writer who has submitted off focus center, not of the reader expecting to find what the Web site specializes in, if a chapter is submitted that doesn't provide heat and/or a standalone story arc and it doesn't receive an enthusiastic welcome here. Just something the writer submitting this needs to live with if they want to submit here.

 

[KarennaC]

Elfin, good advice. Thank you I'm still having trouble with the idea of changing the remaining chapters of this to a different category, but I may just need to suck it up and deal.

sr, if the reason for the low score is that this is a chapter of a longer work and the readers aren't happy about it, I don't have a problem with that. My intent in starting this thread was to find out if there was something about my writing, either technically or content-wise, that was responsible for the low score and that I could fix. From the responses I've gotten here, there are things I can change and improve, and as I continue work on this story, I intend to try to make those improvements.