Obama, Clinton, McCain, and economics.

[Ishmael]

Damn but it's been an interesting week. Obama and Clinton have gone head over heels trying to out spend one another. Depending on who's doing the scoring they've promised to spend anywhere from $480 billion to $800 billion. Neither explaining where all this money id going to come from.

McCain has admitted he doesn't know shit about economics, but plans on leaning on Greenspan for that advice. Of the three he's the most honest.

No president in any recent history has known shit about economics, and that includes Obama and Clinton. They talk like they have solutions, and it sounds good to the unwashed, but they really don't know shit.

By the time any of these clowns get in office the whole sub-prime affair will be over. There'll be nothing to do just like the old adage about closing the barn door.

Obama wants to institute a risk oversight bureau. What will their powers be? To approve every loan? Let me tell you something folks, no bureaucrat was ever in jeopardy of losing their job for saying, "No." If you've ever had to deal with them you'd know this. Lending and investment would come to a screeching halt.

Clinton wants to pink up the tab on high risk mortgages 'temporarily.' Fine, but what happens when the 'temporary' is over and those that went in over their head still can't make the mortgage nut? What will the detailed rules be? Will you have to sell in x months to get this help? There is no such thing as a government carrot without a government stick.

McCain has kept his mouth shut so far. Actually a smart move on his part in that he know's it's all going to be over before he could possibly take office, devise a plan, and get congress to act on it.

But you people can sit around and feel as good as the smoke being blown up your ass will allow you.

Here's a little factoid for you to chew on. Right now, today, without any additions to any federal programs. No 'Universal Health Care.' No bail out for people that signed up for really dumb mortgages. Not a new spending initiative at all.

The long term, UNFUNDED, debt of the US is $53 trillion.

Right now, today, if the budget were to be brought into balance, this long term debt would require that your grandchildrens families will have to absorb a federal tax approaching 70% of their income. Throw in state and local taxes and then figure out what they're going to eat.

You are allowing yourselves and your posterity to be sold out by these clowns.

Ishmael

 

[renard_ruse]

The long term, UNFUNDED, debt of the US is $53 trillion.

Right now, today, if the budget were to be brought into balance, this long term debt would require that your grandchildrens families will have to absorb a federal tax approaching 70% of their income. Throw in state and local taxes and then figure out what they're going to eat.

You are allowing yourselves and your posterity to be sold out by these clowns.

Ishmael

Because of the needless no-win wars and occupations in the Middle East. Its time to bring the troops home and put America first.

 

[Ishmael]

Because of the needless no-win wars and occupations in the Middle East. Its time to bring the troops home and put America first.

No, not at all. The war is a drop in the bucket. If we brought all the troops home tomorrow and shut down the military altogether it would only reduce the long term debt to $47.7 trillion +/-.

Ishmael

 

[ksmybuttons]

No, not at all. The war is a drop in the bucket. If we brought all the troops home tomorrow and shut down the military altogether it would only reduce the long term debt to $47.7 trillion +/-.

Ishmael

You know, you pull so much stuff out of your ass, I expect that you have credible links for these figures?

 

[Ishmael]

You know, you pull so much stuff out of your ass, I expect that you have credible links for these figures?

Seems to me a smart girl like yourself would be able to call my bluff on this.

Ishmael

 

[Lost Cause]

Isn't DOD spending about 4.5% GDP?

That's pocket change compared to unconstitutional social spending~

At the height of World War II, the United States dedicated 37.5 percent of the GDP to national defense, which is the equivalent of $5.5 trillion of the projected GDP for 2009, according to OMB data.
This is more than 10 times the amount requested by Bush for 2009.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200802/NAT20080221b.html

 

[Ishmael]

You're just a little slow for such a smart girl Ksmy.

Let's start with this:

In the Hole

So, here is the head accountant of the country telling you just what I did. Has nothing to do with the Pentagon and everything to do with SS and medicare/medicaid. Mostly the latter.

Then we can go to this;

It's big, really BIG

Well now, that's even worse than I stated.

And you want to do what? Put everyone under a government health care blanket? Please, explain to us how this is going to save money? Are we going to 'out source' or cut services? Play the statistics game and curtail any health care for those thought to be in the last 6 months of their lives? Euthanize infants with high maitenance birth defects/genetic disorders? What's your plan?

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Isn't DOD spending about 4.5% GDP?

That's pocket change compared to unconstitutional social spending~

At the height of World War II, the United States dedicated 37.5 percent of the GDP to national defense, which is the equivalent of $5.5 trillion of the projected GDP for 2009, according to OMB data.
This is more than 10 times the amount requested by Bush for 2009.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200802/NAT20080221b.html

That's right LC, confuse the issue with facts.

Ishmael

 

[ksmybuttons]

Okay, Ish.

I think this is an important discussion and doesn't need to be spun and doesn't deserve to have things like euthanasia introduced as a solution. Not funding the programs that we have is just as irresponsible as you claim that the potential for a universal health care plan.

First, the debt you are calling unfunded is projected debt for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and Federal Pensions. The majority of that projected debt is for Medicare/Medicaid. Medicaid is 50% funded by the individual States.

Lost Cause's percentages of GDP is for non-war funding for the military. It does not include the cost of the war or it's projected unfunded long term costs such as disability or health care payments for the 10s of thousands of injured troops returning from the war.

Within the past 7 years, the feds have gutted the Social Security Trust and, as an example, the debt for 2007 was listed at $163 billion but was actually $344 Billion because of money taken from Social Security. That doesn't include the war nor does it include emergency funds for things like Katrina, which took it up to over a trillion.

Our health care costs have been climbing - 78% from 2001- 2007.

In 2003, $0.69 of every dollar went to medical care. Canada's was $0.83.3 went to medical care.

In 2005 Only $0.66 of every dollar went to medical care.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2005/november/1_in_5_health_care_d.php

 

[ksmybuttons]

Now, lets look at the economics. McCain will bring in the same people from the Republican Party that created the mess we are in today. He would support the status quo.

Clinton supports special interest groups and lets them support her. Her Health Care Plan, as it stands now, will never fly. Too much, too soon. It also utilizes the present for profit model that's financially killing us now.

Obama is proposing a plan that we can choose to buy in to. An affordable plan. A not for profit plan. A plan of choice.

Obama is the only candidate that doesn't yell at me. There's a conversation here. If one listens to what he says, he's not saying he's going to take care of us, he's saying we have to do it together and we, all of us, have to participate if we want something different.

You are here on the board complaining as much as any one else about the status quo but you support the people who support stagnation.

We both know where that goes. Right into more and more problems.

I've been saying for a while that economically we need to grip our linens because we are in for a ride.

Can we weather it? I don't think we even have a possibility with either Clinton or McCain. Obama is a big maybe, but he's the only one with even a glimmer.

I'm going to step up to the plate.

Are you?

 

[Ishmael]

Okay, Ish.

I think this is an important discussion and doesn't need to be spun and doesn't deserve to have things like euthanasia introduced as a solution. Not funding the programs that we have is just as irresponsible as you claim that the potential for a universal health care plan.

First, the debt you are calling unfunded is projected debt for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, and Federal Pensions. The majority of that projected debt is for Medicare/Medicaid. Medicaid is 50% funded by the individual States.

Lost Cause's percentages of GDP is for non-war funding for the military. It does not include the cost of the war or it's projected unfunded long term costs such as disability or health care payments for the 10s of thousands of injured troops returning from the war.

Within the past 7 years, the feds have gutted the Social Security Trust and, as an example, the debt for 2007 was listed at $163 billion but was actually $344 Billion because of money taken from Social Security. That doesn't include the war nor does it include emergency funds for things like Katrina, which took it up to over a trillion.

Our health care costs have been climbing - 78% from 2001- 2007.

In 2003, $0.69 of every dollar went to medical care. Canada's was $0.83.3 went to medical care.

In 2005 Only $0.66 of every dollar went to medical care.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2005/november/1_in_5_health_care_d.php

It's unfunded Ksmy. If the budget were to be balanced tomorrow, it's unfunded. If the Pentagon were to go away tomorrow, it's unfunded. Not only is there no funds to cover the liabilities, congress spent all the money that's been collected so far. The SS 'lock box' is a drawer, in a cabinet, somewhere in West Virginia, filled with IOU's. The paper surplus for SS hasn't existed since 1986. The concept that Gore, or any other dick lick wannabe president is going to put a combination lock on a file cabinet filled with worthless paper is laughable.

Believe it or not, Bush II is the only modern president that has actually tackled the issue head on, and we all saw what happened there.

Your granchildren better plan on emmigrating. Better yet, your children. Pray that they all have better fiscal responsibility than you.

Ishmael

 

[breakwall]

In 2003, $0.69 of every dollar went to medical care. Canada's was $0.83.3 went to medical care.

In 2005 Only $0.66 of every dollar went to medical care.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2005/november/1_in_5_health_care_d.php

Can you clarify this?
I'm reading this as out of every dollar of tax money collected, $0.833 went to Health Care.

(In reality 36% of provincial tax dollars and 8% of federal tax dollars go to Health Care. Still a whopping amount.)

 

[unregistered]

 

[Ishmael]

Can you clarify this?
I'm reading this as out of every dollar of tax money collected, $0.833 went to Health Care.

(In reality 36% of provincial tax dollars and 8% of federal tax dollars go to Health Care. Still a whopping amount.)

No, she can't.

Ishmael

 

[ksmybuttons]

Can you clarify this?
I'm reading this as out of every dollar of tax money collected, $0.833 went to Health Care.

(In reality 36% of provincial tax dollars and 8% of federal tax dollars go to Health Care. Still a whopping amount.)

Sure. It's health care dollars, not total tax dollars. The other money went to administer the health care dollars. In the US it goes to stock holders...

 

[ksmybuttons]

It's unfunded Ksmy. If the budget were to be balanced tomorrow, it's unfunded. If the Pentagon were to go away tomorrow, it's unfunded. Not only is there no funds to cover the liabilities, congress spent all the money that's been collected so far. The SS 'lock box' is a drawer, in a cabinet, somewhere in West Virginia, filled with IOU's. The paper surplus for SS hasn't existed since 1986. The concept that Gore, or any other dick lick wannabe president is going to put a combination lock on a file cabinet filled with worthless paper is laughable.

Believe it or not, Bush II is the only modern president that has actually tackled the issue head on, and we all saw what happened there.

Your granchildren better plan on emmigrating. Better yet, your children. Pray that they all have better fiscal responsibility than you.

Ishmael

I'm just as aware as you are, Ish, about the problems with social security. I'm probably much more aware of what the problems are with Medicare/Medicaid.


You can't have a war and borrow to fund it. That's what has happened.

You can't fund an account when you spend the money on other interests.

You can't cut taxes and expect that the increase in the economy is going to cover when you have a defined amount you can collect.

You can't pay contractors and then have them hide the money in the Caymens so they don't pay taxes.

You shouldn't pay a foreign country to build what your own country can build.


We're going to have to pay, Ish. You could join in the dialogue about how to fix the system and you can continue your bitching, but don't think you are not going to pay.

If you're not already collecting Social Security, when you can, are you going to turn it down? Same with Medicare?

 

[Ishmael]

Sure. It's health care dollars, not total tax dollars. The other money went to administer the health care dollars. In the US it goes to stock holders...

Let's be clear about this. Dollars are dollars. You can write any name on them you want, and it won't change their spending authority.

You, and your sources, assume that the nations top accountant is too fucking stupid to factor in state obligations.

But for the purposes of discussion, let's say he is that stupid.

1 part in 6 is totally the fed. responsibility. $10 trillion, more or less. Half of the balance is still on the fed, $25 trillion.

Leaving an unfunded liability of $35 trillion. Feel better now sweetie?

Wait, it gets better. What is Californias share of that unfunded liability on a per capita basis? (Or did you really think that South Dakota was going to pick up part of that tab?)

Ishmael

 

[breakwall]

Sure. It's health care dollars, not total tax dollars. The other money went to administer the health care dollars. In the US it goes to stock holders...

thanks.
Still, when a third of my provincial tax dollars go to health care, that's a lot of money.

 

[zipman]

Damn but it's been an interesting week. Obama and Clinton have gone head over heels trying to out spend one another. Depending on who's doing the scoring they've promised to spend anywhere from $480 billion to $800 billion. Neither explaining where all this money id going to come from.

McCain has admitted he doesn't know shit about economics, but plans on leaning on Greenspan for that advice. Of the three he's the most honest.

No president in any recent history has known shit about economics, and that includes Obama and Clinton. They talk like they have solutions, and it sounds good to the unwashed, but they really don't know shit.

By the time any of these clowns get in office the whole sub-prime affair will be over. There'll be nothing to do just like the old adage about closing the barn door.

Obama wants to institute a risk oversight bureau. What will their powers be? To approve every loan? Let me tell you something folks, no bureaucrat was ever in jeopardy of losing their job for saying, "No." If you've ever had to deal with them you'd know this. Lending and investment would come to a screeching halt.

Clinton wants to pink up the tab on high risk mortgages 'temporarily.' Fine, but what happens when the 'temporary' is over and those that went in over their head still can't make the mortgage nut? What will the detailed rules be? Will you have to sell in x months to get this help? There is no such thing as a government carrot without a government stick.

McCain has kept his mouth shut so far. Actually a smart move on his part in that he know's it's all going to be over before he could possibly take office, devise a plan, and get congress to act on it.

But you people can sit around and feel as good as the smoke being blown up your ass will allow you.

Here's a little factoid for you to chew on. Right now, today, without any additions to any federal programs. No 'Universal Health Care.' No bail out for people that signed up for really dumb mortgages. Not a new spending initiative at all.

The long term, UNFUNDED, debt of the US is $53 trillion.

Right now, today, if the budget were to be brought into balance, this long term debt would require that your grandchildrens families will have to absorb a federal tax approaching 70% of their income. Throw in state and local taxes and then figure out what they're going to eat.

You are allowing yourselves and your posterity to be sold out by these clowns.

Ishmael

Great. McCain is going to lean on Greenspan for advice even though he had a big hand in creating the subprime meltdown.

That makes me feel better.

 

[sigh]

Isn't DOD spending about 4.5% GDP?

That's pocket change compared to unconstitutional social spending~

At the height of World War II, the United States dedicated 37.5 percent of the GDP to national defense, which is the equivalent of $5.5 trillion of the projected GDP for 2009, according to OMB data.
This is more than 10 times the amount requested by Bush for 2009.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200802/NAT20080221b.html

First, not all expenses for the war are going through the DOD, but even if they were, how does your historical comparison justify throwing good money after bad today?

oops...that's right...it doesn't!

Now here's another one. Among modern American presidents, which two increased the deficit the most? hmmm? Well my oh my, neither was a Democrat, were they? But hell, let's bitch about Obama and Clinton. Sure, that's a good one.

Substitution and diversion. It's one of Ish's favorite tricks.

 

[ksmybuttons]

Let's be clear about this. Dollars are dollars. You can write any name on them you want, and it won't change their spending authority.

You, and your sources, assume that the nations top accountant is too fucking stupid to factor in state obligations.

But for the purposes of discussion, let's say he is that stupid.

1 part in 6 is totally the fed. responsibility. $10 trillion, more or less. Half of the balance is still on the fed, $25 trillion.

Leaving an unfunded liability of $35 trillion. Feel better now sweetie?

Wait, it gets better. What is Californias share of that unfunded liability on a per capita basis? (Or did you really think that South Dakota was going to pick up part of that tab?)

Ishmael

What are you talking about?

Let me simplify this for you, Ish.

Lets say you pay $1 to United Health Care for your insurance. Well, just like any good business, they need to make a profit. They can't stay in business if they don't. They take that dollar and they keep a minimum of 30 cents for profit. In 2005 it was 34 cents. Strictly for profit.

They list the average cost of health insurance for a single person at $4400. At 30 cents, that means $1230 is just for profit to the insurance companies...nothing more. That other 66 cents of your health care dollar is also paying for the multiple profits of the people who make the machinery, equipment, provide the care. No one that I can find, has actually looked at that data.

To have a health care system that functions like a designer clothing store isn't in our best interest.

This is the problem with Hillary's plan -- she wants to use our money to continue to fund the corporate health insurance plans.

 

[ksmybuttons]

thanks.
Still, when a third of my provincial tax dollars go to health care, that's a lot of money.

Think of how you would feel if you knew that a third of those tax dollars were just going to someone's profit centers, right off the top...while people were denied insurance because of their risk factors.

 

[Ishmael]

Great. McCain is going to lean on Greenspan for advice even though he had a big hand in creating the subprime meltdown.

That makes me feel better.

That's a lie. He raised the flag just like he did with the dot com collapse. He had no legal authority to do anything. And that gets us to Obamas idea. An idea I opened for discussion.

Ishmael

 

[zipman]

That's a lie. He raised the flag just like he did with the dot com collapse. He had no legal authority to do anything. And that gets us to Obamas idea. An idea I opened for discussion.

Ishmael

Greenspan was one of the people that was encouraging people to use Adjustable Rate Mortgages instead of the more stable 30 year Mortgages arguing that people were possibly paying too much for their mortgages under the 30 year plan.

He also kept interest rates at 1% for way too long as an overreaction to the 2001 recession so more people were able to buy into the housing market which propelled the housing boom.

Granted there were a lot of people who played a hand in creating this mess, but even Greenspan has admitted that he knew poor lending practices were going on but underestimated their potential impact.

As usual, you know far less about the topic than you want everyone to think. [insert patented Ish *snicker* here]

 

[Faneros]

Now, lets look at the economics. McCain will bring in the same people from the Republican Party that created the mess we are in today. He would support the status quo.

Clinton supports special interest groups and lets them support her. Her Health Care Plan, as it stands now, will never fly. Too much, too soon. It also utilizes the present for profit model that's financially killing us now.

Obama is proposing a plan that we can choose to buy in to. An affordable plan. A not for profit plan. A plan of choice.

Obama is the only candidate that doesn't yell at me. There's a conversation here. If one listens to what he says, he's not saying he's going to take care of us, he's saying we have to do it together and we, all of us, have to participate if we want something different.

You are here on the board complaining as much as any one else about the status quo but you support the people who support stagnation.

We both know where that goes. Right into more and more problems.

I've been saying for a while that economically we need to grip our linens because we are in for a ride.

Can we weather it? I don't think we even have a possibility with either Clinton or McCain. Obama is a big maybe, but he's the only one with even a glimmer.

I'm going to step up to the plate.

Are you?

O'bama and Clinton are both Populists and throughout history these individuals have a way of detroying our ecomony and the stock market. Lets hope these massive programs they are preching never come to fruition.