Humiliation?

[lk70]

I'm just beginning my first "real" D/s relationship, after a year of fending off asshats from CM and my Dom asked me how I felt about humiliation.

I had to answer that I really don't know what it means. He gave me some examples, but I have to say that I don't really feel like those things would be humiliating.

I know this would be different for everyone, but if anyone would be willing to post things that represent humiliation to them, I'd appreciate it. I hope I'll be able to extrapolate something from it.

Many thanks.

 

[Chicklet]

One of the keys to real humiliation is finding what works with a specific person.

I find being tickled humiliating, while I find being treated like an animal not humiliating at all...

I think that you should suggest to your Dom that perhaps he should just experiment with you and find out what makes you react

Then you'll be able to judge if you'd like it or not.

--

I know some people who are humiliated by masturbating in front of someone, or using toys on themselves. Different positions that make them feel lewd. Going without panties. Peeing, being watched peeing, peeing in something specific or on something specific. Being told NOT to pee. etc.

 

[madetotakeit]

This was a somewhat foggy area to me too. At the outset, I would have said that I would not enjoy humiliation. After discussing it, I found that what my impression of it was not necessarily what it was. While I would find the things that could be said to be humiliating in public, in private...they just amp me up a little more.

 

[EmpressFi]

I attended a class with Midori about humiliation play and the key point she tried to stress that it was important to learn what makes a person tick, what they do consider humiliation.. without knocking out the supports of their psyche. As a Top/Dominant, it's is your responsibility to learn how to break down your bottom/submissive without doing any permanent damage.

I'll have to see if i can find the books she suggested to read

 

[Dominoc]

humiliation

I would chime in and say I like what others have posted. I think the key also is the idea that humiliation is arousing for some. Maybe that's too basic or fundamental, but that is an important ingredient. If it doesn't make you shiver, then there's no sensation to play with. So you have to sort of see what types you personally find to create a strong erotic emotion. For some it's subtle, for others it might be severe, for others it's just not too interesting at all, some it's a difficult or hard limit. Just thought I would weigh in.

 

[myinnerslut]

a big humiliation factor for me (but on that turns me on even more) is having to verbally express my desires. having to say what i want and how i feel. having to talk about my body and its reactions.

 

[rooky2]

Humiliation...

I feel humiliation is subjective, spatial, periodic, and contextual. I am just giving my opinion here not advocating or criticising the term...

Subjective as it is what is unexpected of a person, for example royalty/boss/owner dominated by a slave/subordinate/owned or simply superior made to obey inferior...its a turn on for all with inferior personalities;

spatial because one does (or made to do) some thing in public which s/he may only do (if at all do) in privacy. Thus exposure of privacy which is not meant to be...its a turn on for all with least self-esteem;

Periodic, as most of the humans have a hidden desire or tendency to experience periodic change of role but within their own control. When the "own control" is taken away, it becomes humiliation from "fun".

Contextual, beating norms and values for instance modesty observers forced to live or act like "bold".

No offense meant, just sharing thoughts on the subject...!

 

[madetotakeit]

Subjective as it is what is unexpected of a person, for example royalty/boss/owner dominated by a slave/subordinate/owned or simply superior made to obey inferior...its a turn on for all with inferior personalities;

spatial because one does (or made to do) some thing in public which s/he may only do (if at all do) in privacy. Thus exposure of privacy which is not meant to be...its a turn on for all with least self-esteem;


No offense meant, just sharing thoughts on the subject...!

No offense taken, however I will disagree with your statements. I can not think of a single pyl who looks upon their PYL as inferior. Quite the opposite in fact. As has been well discussed here, pyl's seek out those that are at the very least an equal on many levels. This is not based on inferior personalities either. Even assuming you are basing this on the Jungian archetype rather than a statement on the person submitting in general. According to Jung the inferior personality is simply the lower personality, the secondary drive. It is the part of a person that can not be controlled, the impulsive side. Quite the opposite of humiliation play as the pyl is not doing or saying this out of their choice or drive, but to please the PYL.

I would hesitate to think that a PYL would incorporate humiliation in someone with low self-esteem. It would be counter productive.

IMO the excitement and pleasure comes from having such a level of trust and giving over so much control to another person that the pyl would say, do, or accept any words that are said completely out of character to who the pyl is.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I feel humiliation is subjective, spatial, periodic, and contextual. I am just giving my opinion here not advocating or criticising the term...

Subjective as it is what is unexpected of a person, for example royalty/boss/owner dominated by a slave/subordinate/owned or simply superior made to obey inferior...its a turn on for all with inferior personalities;

Have to agree with this, especially the latter of a pyl being expected to submit to someone they feel is not of an equal or higher status than themselves. Despite the popular belief that pyl's either do or should feel they are lesser beings than all others, but reality is 99% do have some level of cut-off below which they do not or would not ordinarily consider lowering to (eg. homeless person, someone clearly not very smart, , sexist etc.). To recognise and play with that to the point of making them submit or bottom to such a person, or the brave or turned on self informed pyl who will place themselves in such a position can achieve a delicious level of humiliation not experienced in any other way. Beleive me, it can be quite addictive.

spatial because one does (or made to do) some thing in public which s/he may only do (if at all do) in privacy. Thus exposure of privacy which is not meant to be...its a turn on for all with least self-esteem;

Once again I agree ths can be a turn on in humiliation stakes. Of course, it can also be undermined by pyl's who have an ability to transform those predefined boundaries to acceptable level, and that can become a huge issue to overcome and control if humiliation is the key goal. Self esteem can actually be enhanced by the use of humiliation acts if handled carefully and skilfully, but is not recommended for all to try.

Periodic, as most of the humans have a hidden desire or tendency to experience periodic change of role but within their own control. When the "own control" is taken away, it becomes humiliation from "fun".

Not sure all want to change roles, but it can be humiliating to be forced to, or to be placed in a position whereby you have to behave in a way which is not your most preferred or chosen.

Contextual, beating norms and values for instance modesty observers forced to live or act like "bold".

This can definately be a turn on for some.


I think humiliation is a difficult area to traverse and needs a lot of self knowledge and knowledge of the other. What works for one will not work for another and similarly what works one day might not work the next day. It is also very easy to become adept at mentally arranging the psyche to combat the humiliation factor. It is not possible for all, but it can be done by some of us either intentionally or unintentionally.

Catalina

 

[bandelero]

I would find it immensely humiliating if I were to publicly criticise someone for something, then be just as publicly proved to be completely wrong in that criticism.

This is not likely to happen anytime soon, as I am not crass enough to perform that sort of public criticism anyway, and I am rarely wrong

In a slightly more serious vein, as you noticed yourself lk70, what one person may find humiliating, another person just thinks "huh? that is fine"
Humiliation can also mean anything from a mild feeling of psychological discomfort, to a full blown, "wish the ground would open up and swallow me" embarrassment scene; or anything in-between.

Some of the classical D/s humiliation scenarios such as kneeling, kissing boots etc will often only cause embarrassment if the sub is made to perform these obesiances publicly. In some cases though, the sub enjoys obeying his/her dom so much that they are not actually humiliated.

The only suggestion I have to make that may help you find something that would humiliate you sufficiently to please your dom is for you to search your memory for something that you did in the past, or any particular set of circumstances that involved you experienceing humiliation. Then, if it is possible to recreate those events, try it and see if it is still humiliating to you.

You could always try wearing some light blue jeans, weeing yourself in a public place and then calling out loud, "Does anyone have any spare tissues? I just wet my pants."
That would probably humiliate me.

 

[Netzach]

I draw a line between erotic embarrassment, which is basically exploiting the fact that embarrassed is a physical 15 degree turn away from aroused, physically. For a lot of people that's something simple "good girl" or lifting a skirt in a parking lot as you go to the car, or making him wear panties under his work pants. (For some people all of the above could be non-budging dealbreakers - "light" is subjective) but the point is purely "to turn them on."

And then there's humiliation for cathartic purposes, psychological release, which may not be erotic at all or may be erotic because of adrenaline/heavy stimulus of fear, or only tangentially sexual, or only sexual because the subject matter is inherently sexual (slutdom, forced bi, heavy anonymous use) but that sexuality is in the service of objectification and reinforcement of status.

 

[EmpressFi]

In Midori's class, she had a volunteer come up to the stage area. She asked her, "Who was the most influential member of your family". The person answered her grandmother. "What was the one thing you could NEVER do or say in front of her?" Her answer was to be sexually provocative or dress sexy/talk about sex. Midori then stepped back and her voice changed to this lower, more commanding tone. "Take off your panties."

The volunteer looked at her and whispered ,"I can't." Her problem was the fishnet body suit she was wearing over her panties. So Midori had the volunteer's partner come up, gave her a pair of scissors and had the partner lift the skirt in front of us and cut them off.

Midori had her straighten her skirt and then after she (the volunteer) stopped blushing, Midori told her to spread her legs, took her cell phone and took a picture of her exposed pussy and proceeded to hold it up and comment on it (favorably).

Midori's tauntings became for a sexual nature, trying to get her to talk about things she'd done or wanted to do/have done, every once in a while whispering.. "am I making you wet?"

At one point, she asked the volunteer to tell her what she wanted. Her answer wasnt graphic enough. Midori chastised her, saying, "you're a pretty girl, and you're wet, but that's not enough, I can have anyone I want. Come on, sell your cunt if you want me to fuck it." The girl was BEET red by this point. After a few attempts to make her requests more raunchy, Midori brought in her assistant/submissive to show the girl how to be a slut. And then commanded her to the floor to practice her slut lessons by writhing sexually on the floor, flashing her pussy to Midori, grinding against her shoe..

While the floor part was going on, she brought in another volunteer to be her chair. That's all she did, she didnt acknowledge the person, just said, "I need a chair". The one thing that stood out for the "chair" was Midori said to us, "You may be out there thinking, how could anyone like that, how could anyone get off on being totally ignored? When to the person being the chair, they are thinking, "No one else is being ignored exactly the way I am, look how special I am to her".

That impressed me so much. That and the fact that the entire time she had the person on stage and writhing on the floor, never once did she resort to humiliation that would have damaged her self esteem. It might have embarrassed her, but it didnt HURT her. That's the part that a good Dominant needs to really find out in the person he/she is humiliating. What are the core things that cant be touched. For Midori it was her nationality, her looks and her intelligence. Any of those used would be instant turn off and damaging to her. For me, calling me a dirtly little slut would probably turn me on..but calling me a fat cunt.. would probably have me in tears.

She stressed the importance of an "interview" of sorts with new playmates, or just being careful with the tools you use to humiliate someone

 

[dave's thing]

Now that was some very interesting teachings.
Thank You

 

[Netzach]

I have to disagree with the notion of untouchables so much as *understand the risk of touching the untouchables*

some people do play with trauma, risk, and their own boundaries.

 

[fishercat]

I have to disagree with the notion of untouchables so much as *understand the risk of touching the untouchables*

some people do play with trauma, risk, and their own boundaries.

I agree totally. And I think that in some cases, playing with the boundaries is the only way to resolve some of the untouchable areas.

Example: I'm modest, and while curious about public play, would find it completely humiliating. But not because I'm modest, but because my modesty itself springs from my poor body image due to a lifetime of being overweight. A Dom I trust, that can play on that with a light and caring touch, could probably slowly assist me in changing my self-image by simply proving to me that being naked in front of him and others won't hurt me in the way I expect. That people aren't all going to point and laugh.

Telling me he likes me as I am is nice, but patting me on the head isn't going to help solve the problem. I'm not saying it's his problem to solve, but self-image is one of those tricky things that often is easier to influence with help.

 

[BiBunny]

I have to disagree with the notion of untouchables so much as *understand the risk of touching the untouchables*

some people do play with trauma, risk, and their own boundaries.

Yes. Some of us absolutely need that.

Honestly, 99% of what most people consider "humiliation" either bores me or just makes me giggle at the attempt. I'm not saying this to make myself sound like some kind of hardcore player or anything. It's just that I have this emotional masochist streak that most people, even the kinky ones, don't understand. I have a hard time joining into these discussions for that reason, I think.

Maybe it goes past humiliation and into degradation, I don't know, but I need a Top to be cruel to me. If I'm not sobbing like a three-year-old who got her cookie taken away by the time it's over, GTFO and don't try again, jack.

/end only marginally relevant tangent

 

[EmpressFi]

I agree totally. And I think that in some cases, playing with the boundaries is the only way to resolve some of the untouchable areas.

Example: I'm modest, and while curious about public play, would find it completely humiliating. But not because I'm modest, but because my modesty itself springs from my poor body image due to a lifetime of being overweight. A Dom I trust, that can play on that with a light and caring touch, could probably slowly assist me in changing my self-image by simply proving to me that being naked in front of him and others won't hurt me in the way I expect. That people aren't all going to point and laugh.

Telling me he likes me as I am is nice, but patting me on the head isn't going to help solve the problem. I'm not saying it's his problem to solve, but self-image is one of those tricky things that often is easier to influence with help.

Right, so he would know exactly how far to go before it was too far and permanent psychological damage was done. I think that's the point that I guess I'm just not making. She wasnt saying to NEVER be harsh, but instead, know where that limit is ... the limit between leaving them sobbing and begging for more.. or sobbing and wanting to harm themselves.

 

[BiBunny]

Right, so he would know exactly how far to go before it was too far and permanent psychological damage was done. I think that's the point that I guess I'm just not making. She wasnt saying to NEVER be harsh, but instead, know where that limit is ... the limit between leaving them sobbing and begging for more.. or sobbing and wanting to harm themselves.

But some of us need to cross that line. I don't think there's a simple generalization you can make about humiliation play, really.

 

[EmpressFi]

/shrug

whatever floats your boat

I was just sharing what I had learned from Midori's class that left an impression on me.

Gleen or ignore what you will

I believe we've reached an agree to disagree moment

 

[lk70]

Thanks so much for all the replies so far. So helpful!

I guess for me, the issue might be the definition of humiliation. I can think of lots of things that he could have me do that would be embarrassing and/or would make me squirmy and uncomfortable. I don't know yet whether that would be liberating or just a relief when it's over. And yet, oddly, there's a wee tiny part of me that wants to try something in this category soon, just to see.

Then I can think of things that would just piss me off so much I can picture myself just ending the whole relationship.

I suppose striking the balance is the point. He says this part has to be taken very slowly and we won't worry about it until he gets to know me better.

 

[BiBunny]

/shrug

whatever floats your boat

I was just sharing what I had learned from Midori's class that left an impression on me.

Gleen or ignore what you will

I believe we've reached an agree to disagree moment

I was honestly not trying to argue with you. I just think that there's this *huge* area of emotional masochism that's often ignored on this board. I'm guessing that's because it tends to be a "male sub" thing, insofar as something can be considered such, and there are, what, maybe three msubs who post here with any regularity. (It's obviously not limited to msubs because I'm sitting here saying how much I enjoy it, but in my experience as a Top, I've seen way more msubs into it than fsubs.) Perhaps I should start another thread?

 

[catalina_francisco]

I was honestly not trying to argue with you. I just think that there's this *huge* area of emotional masochism that's often ignored on this board. I'm guessing that's because it tends to be a "male sub" thing, insofar as something can be considered such, and there are, what, maybe three msubs who post here with any regularity. (It's obviously not limited to msubs because I'm sitting here saying how much I enjoy it, but in my experience as a Top, I've seen way more msubs into it than fsubs.) Perhaps I should start another thread?

I think you are right in that it is a less frequent topic here. My experience has been more msubs are usually much more prepared to go further in all areas than fsubs. There are a few fsubs who get what you are taking about, but I think for many it is just too risky an area to venture into. Personally I think a lot of fsubs would find it has great value if they could allow themselves to go there.

Catalina

 

[BiBunny]

I think you are right in that it is a less frequent topic here. My experience has been more msubs are usually much more prepared to go further in all areas than fsubs. There are a few fsubs who get what you are taking about, but I think for many it is just too risky an area to venture into. Personally I think a lot of fsubs would find it has great value if they could allow themselves to go there.

Catalina

I agree with all of the above. Do you think, cat, that it might be partly because males tend to have fewer insecurities about themselves than females do? *Not trying to start a flame war here--just another general observation*

 

[EmpressFi]

Or they're better at hiding it.

I seem to be magnates for men with self-esteem issues.

But that is a good point, something to explorer

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with all of the above. Do you think, cat, that it might be partly because males tend to have fewer insecurities about themselves than females do? *Not trying to start a flame war here--just another general observation*

Not sure whether it is they have fewer insecurities as much as they don't allow them to define who they are and what they want. IME it seems to be all the more reason to challenge those parts of themselves they either do not like or feel exposed/vulnerabe over. In some part this is how it works for me as well. Sort of like a moth to the flame type thing...the things I fear and despise they thought of the most become the ones which fuel my hottest fantasies to the point I feel I have to take it a step further into a painful and possibly destructive reality. I find many women are ruled by their insecurities to the point it cripples them and defines who they become, where their life goes.

Catalina