The Law Can Get It SO Wrong SO often!

[catalina_francisco]

The Law Can Get It SO Wrong So often!

Can you believe the stupidity of the WA law mentioned in this article about the sexual assault and murder of an 8 year old? They say "Under WA law, sexual assault charges can only be laid if the victim was alive during the attack, so it can be asserted no consent was given", and apparently they can't determine whether this child was alive or already murdered so sexual assault was dropped from the case. WTF?!!

Catalina

 

[northwoods_sub]

How do they figure that somehow after she had died she would be able to give consent?!?!? Not to mention how can an 8yr old give consent?

The system is so backwards sometimes I just don't understand it.

 

[Quint]

...........

 

[FurryFury]

Wow. That's terrible.

 

[Recidiva]

Let's hope there's a separate necrophilia law.

So often so much of this stuff arises because uniquely awful crimes like this fill in blanks where something this hideous hadn't been done before.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

... and apparently they can't determine whether this child was alive or already murdered so sexual assault was dropped from the case. WTF?!!

Catalina

As Recidiva pointed out, if Washington State has a seperate crime of necrophilia, the time of death relative to the sexual activity becomes relevant. You can not "sexually assault" a corpse, and you can't commit necrophilia on a living person. If the prosecution can't show when death occured (either before or after the sex act) they can not prove the elements of that particular crime. He gets the murder charge. Hopefully with the death penalty.

I would have no trouble, or qualms of conscience, pushing the plunger, flipping the switch, opening the valve, pulling the handle or squeezing the trigger that ended the life of that monster... one less oxygen thief to deal with.

 

[incubus'_sub]

It's Western Australia & unfortunately we don't have the death penalty in any of our states.

The guy has pleaded guilty to the murder & he'll hopefully be away for ever, living in the hell that awaits child molesters & killers in prison.

To be honest I can't see what difference additional charges would have made to the outcome in this case had the law been different.

 

[Netzach]

Why this piece of work ever saw the light of day after his first convicition is more the question.

Sometimes I think death is too good for these people. I seriously relish the thought of them rotting year after year and dying in prison.

 

[Evil_Geoff]

It's Western Australia & unfortunately we don't have the death penalty in any of our states.

The guy has pleaded guilty to the murder & he'll hopefully be away for ever, living in the hell that awaits child molesters & killers in prison.

To be honest I can't see what difference additional charges would have made to the outcome in this case had the law been different.

Ahhhh.... my bad. WA = WAshington state in our postal code here in the US, totally blew past that detail earlier.

I'd still volunteer to execute the thug.

 

[@}-}rebecca----]

If the law had been different this man would have been on a sex offenders register amongst other things and his access to potential victims would have been impeded.

If the law had been different and he had been prosecuted further it may have made the child's surviving family and friends feel that justice had been served to the full. I don't expect anyone to ever completely comes to terms with the loss of a child. To add the heinous nature established as factually has to significantly increase the grief and pain those left must endure. Insult to injury that less has been attained in this case.

I looked into the legislation in regards to this earlier this morning, unfortunately I don't have a time budget to give appropriate recourse to the task for now. If I am fortunate enough to access something more up to date than that which I read in regards to the 'mishandling' of cadavers at Sydney's University of New South Wales in February, I will post them in this thread later.

 

[catalina_francisco]

To be honest I can't see what difference additional charges would have made to the outcome in this case had the law been different.

If I had been the parents or even family friends/relatives of the murdered child (and I believe on another level just any outraged member of the public), the difference in the outcome would have been that it had been documented and acknowledged what had been forced on this child instead of seemingly (on an emotional level, not the intricacies of law justified) swept under the carpet as not really being of any importance. It is important what happens to people, every last graphic sickening detail, but I think society to a large degree has been desensitised to a point that like you they fail to see why it matters as long as the perpetrator gets a jail term for something. For me, even though I don't know the people involved, it matters a lot what goes on record for all time and what is validated as very real and horrifically unacceptable. There is a feminist principle of practice which states it is not just about the outcome, but also the process used to get there...IOW, it is not just about whether he rots in jail for evermore, but how and why he is there also, and how he has been publicly held accountable for every act he committed, not just the murder. It is fine to look at it from a disconnected academic POV and pass it off as of no consequence to be mentioned, but I am sure if it had happened in any of our immediate families we would not be so quick in saying it doesn't matter that he is not made to answer to all charges just as long as he is put away.

Catalina

 

[DVS]

If I had been the parents or even family friends/relatives of the murdered child (and I believe on another level just any outraged member of the public), the difference in the outcome would have been that it had been documented and acknowledged what had been forced on this child instead of seemingly (on an emotional level, not the intricacies of law justified) swept under the carpet as not really being of any importance. It is important what happens to people, every last graphic sickening detail, but I think society to a large degree has been desensitised to a point that like you they fail to see why it matters as long as the perpetrator gets a jail term for something. For me, even though I don't know the people involved, it matters a lot what goes on record for all time and what is validated as very real and horrifically unacceptable. There is a feminist principle of practice which states it is not just about the outcome, but also the process used to get there...IOW, it is not just about whether he rots in jail for evermore, but how and why he is there also, and how he has been publicly held accountable for every act he committed, not just the murder. It is fine to look at it from a disconnected academic POV and pass it off as of no consequence to be mentioned, but I am sure if it had happened in any of our immediate families we would not be so quick in saying it doesn't matter that he is not made to answer to all charges just as long as he is put away.

Catalina

I agree that courts sometimes seem to be satisfied with any conviction and don't persue some charges. But, I think they sometimes try to shield the family from knowing the horrific details, if it's decided not necessary for a guilty verdict.

In this case, the guy pleaded guilty to murder. Was thet a plea that was entered into just so the horrific details of his crime wouldn't be detailed out in court? That sometimes happens, too. I don't think pleas like this should be possible. If someone living among us is so evil, we as a society need to know and need to document the details of the crime.

We need to know just how horrible our murderers are, so laws can be changed to compensate for it. If nobody ever hears the details, they are soon forgotten and he just ends up another murder statistic.

Many times the lawyers of the accused will deal with the procecution, getting an outcome that saves taxpayers money and an overloaded court system unnessary time procecuting these thugs. Not that I consider this a good thing, but it is often seen as a win win situation, because they got their conviction and saved taspayer's time and money, too. The mindset just isn't there to document his horrific crimes in detail.

 

[WriterDom]

He's a dead man walking.

 

[intothewoods]

If I had been the parents or even family friends/relatives of the murdered child (and I believe on another level just any outraged member of the public), the difference in the outcome would have been that it had been documented and acknowledged what had been forced on this child instead of seemingly (on an emotional level, not the intricacies of law justified) swept under the carpet as not really being of any importance. It is important what happens to people, every last graphic sickening detail, but I think society to a large degree has been desensitised to a point that like you they fail to see why it matters as long as the perpetrator gets a jail term for something. For me, even though I don't know the people involved, it matters a lot what goes on record for all time and what is validated as very real and horrifically unacceptable. There is a feminist principle of practice which states it is not just about the outcome, but also the process used to get there...IOW, it is not just about whether he rots in jail for evermore, but how and why he is there also, and how he has been publicly held accountable for every act he committed, not just the murder. It is fine to look at it from a disconnected academic POV and pass it off as of no consequence to be mentioned, but I am sure if it had happened in any of our immediate families we would not be so quick in saying it doesn't matter that he is not made to answer to all charges just as long as he is put away.

Catalina

More than likely, he will have to recount the story and details of his crime in court, and it will be part of the public record, regardless of the charge.

It's an old principle of criminal law - you can't "violate" (for lack of a better word, but this includes murder/rape/etc.) a dead person. As others have mentioned, there are often statutes against desecration of corpses, etc., however.

I understand the frustration, and I think the crime is abhorent, but in a broader sense, I'd rather an undercriminalized than overcriminalized society. There are gains and losses for either approach. Some assholes may go free when there isn't a code provision for every single little thing, but I prefer that scenario to one in which say, littering, is a criminal offense.

 

[catalina_francisco]

More than likely, he will have to recount the story and details of his crime in court, and it will be part of the public record, regardless of the charge.

It's an old principle of criminal law - you can't "violate" (for lack of a better word, but this includes murder/rape/etc.) a dead person. As others have mentioned, there are often statutes against desecration of corpses, etc., however.

I understand the frustration, and I think the crime is abhorent, but in a broader sense, I'd rather an undercriminalized than overcriminalized society. There are gains and losses for either approach. Some assholes may go free when there isn't a code provision for every single little thing, but I prefer that scenario to one in which say, littering, is a criminal offense.

I'm not sure I can be on the same page as you and compare it to something such as littering (and I am a litter hater who really has no sympathy for those who are fined for doing it, even for cigarette butts which I find most offensive). As to recounting it in court, isn't that often bypassed or minimised in cases where there is a confession in place? And is it really the same as having to answer for it? I doubt this man will be remorseful, so what if he has to mention it in court, it won't bother him too much I expect, may even excite him as many sex offender/murderers have admitted it does to be able to relate what they did and watch and delight in the pain of the family left behind as they have to listen to every graphic detail.

Catalina

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not sure I can be on the same page as you and compare it to something such as littering (and I am a litter hater who really has no sympathy for those who are fined for doing it, even for cigarette butts which I find most offensive). As to recounting it in court, isn't that often bypassed or minimised in cases where there is a confession in place? And is it really the same as having to answer for it? I doubt this man will be remorseful, so what if he has to mention it in court, it won't bother him too much I expect, may even excite him as many sex offender/murderers have admitted it does to be able to relate what they did and watch and delight in the pain of the family left behind as they have to listen to every graphic detail.

Catalina

Littering is an extreme example. I'm not saying it's anything like what this guy does. I'm saying that's the flip side of a place that has a sweeping criminal code. I'm okay with fines, but I'm thinking of some place like Singapore, where the punishments are much tougher. On the flip side, they have a beautiful, clean, safe country! And I sound flip, but I'm being serious. It's a trade off.

The criminal justice system here is far from perfect, but I feel fairly confident he'll get a hefty sentence, and in that sense, have to "answer" for it. You seemed to be concerned that the crimes would be forgotten, I thought, and so I was pointing out that there will be a record of his crimes, a history of it: in court records, newspapers, etc.

 

[incubus'_sub]

The fact that we're talking about it means that the public knows what he did & that it's been documented & made public.

What does need to change are the laws & parole systems that allow these offenders chances to get out & do it again. Over & over again we see these predators released back into the community yet it's very well known that their behaviour cannot be cured or changed. They're often model prisoners but it's simply because, in gaol, they lack the opportunity to fulfill their desires.

Surely it's time to have a system where one serious attack means life.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This update in Perth's local newspaper highlights more the need for the sexual assault charges to be part of the process. The murderer in this case had charges dropped 3 years earlier in a case which alleged he had sexually assaulted another 8 year old...so he basically went free. Once again the sexual assault charges have been dropped even though it is clear he had sex with his victim. If he had been charged and convicted of sexual assault of a minor it would go on the national register which means constant police tracking of him for the rest of his life.

Of course he is going to prison so people may think it is unnecessary, but if it had been carried through in the first case he may not have had as much opportunity to murder this child. Add to that I am not convinced when someone is supposedly sentenced to life that they will remain there, thus having him on a register for sexual offences against children just may be necessary but unable to do if he is ever released and has not been convicted of child sexual offences. Many are the cases where it is later overturned to allow them to be released in a period of time, not to mention life rarely means life anymore (sheesh if life is the short number of years some sentences are converted to, most on this board would have been long dead by now).

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

The fact that we're talking about it means that the public knows what he did & that it's been documented & made public.

Memories are short, especially where media stories and the public are concerned, nor are they a legal response which carries a much more formal documentation and judgement of what took place then a few words in a newspaper which becomes compost or rubbish.

What does need to change are the laws & parole systems that allow these offenders chances to get out & do it again. Over & over again we see these predators released back into the community yet it's very well known that their behaviour cannot be cured or changed. They're often model prisoners but it's simply because, in gaol, they lack the opportunity to fulfill their desires.

Surely it's time to have a system where one serious attack means life.

Agreed...not sure it will happen in the near future though. In some places they are releasing prisoners early because of prison overload and lack of funding to provide more space. Mind you, for many prison is a much better alternative to living free, and with little pressure to deal with all those nasty issues such as working, paying bills, family obligations etc.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Once again, another child becomes the victim of legal and government shortcomings which should be able to protect them. This story reflects some of what I said in a thread a couple of weeks ago about why there is a need for Child Protective Services, and why just because parents are upset they are under observation or have to prove they are capable of taking care of their child if it is returned to them, it is not enough reason to place the child back in danger until something else happens to prove it is an unsafe environment for them to live in. This poor child will never have another chance.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I often get asked here why I left Australia and how I can bear to leave such a beautiful country. Beautiful it is in terms of natural beauty, and some of it's people, but this story further demonstrates the politics and underside of Australian culture which made leaving easy, and in some part for me necessary, and saddens me no end to see it is still cultivated and promoted by our Anglo based government as acceptable.

Catalina

 

[twysted73]

I often get asked here why I left Australia and how I can bear to leave such a beautiful country. Beautiful it is in terms of natural beauty, and some of it's people, but this story further demonstrates the politics and underside of Australian culture which made leaving easy, and in some part for me necessary, and saddens me no end to see it is still cultivated and promoted by our Anglo based government as acceptable.

Catalina

Catalina, I'm probably one of the few people here on lit who's not an Australian but can agree with you on this subject. Here's the story.

While out on liberty in Freemantle (yeah, I was military) I was approached by a young woman with small bandages scattered in random places (roughly 4" gauze pads, etc). She was attractive, petite, blonde and ask me if I was American. I said I was and she asked me if it was alright if I came with her as she needed to go to the "pharmacy" as you call drugstores down there. I agreed and as we walked we talked and the conversation came around to her reasoning to my escort. She had been released from the hospital that day after having been stabbed by a local 2 days prior simply for brushing off his advances. (nothing happened to him by the way because she had been judged to be "dressed innapropriately" and so had incited the attack.)

We ended up spending the day with her showing me around town at historic landmarks, etc and telling me how the situation for women was there. She admitted to me not knowing one girl in her circle of friends who hadn't been attacked or raped at some point in their lives.
That's just a little disturbing.

 

[northwoods_sub]

I often get asked here why I left Australia and how I can bear to leave such a beautiful country. Beautiful it is in terms of natural beauty, and some of it's people, but this story further demonstrates the politics and underside of Australian culture which made leaving easy, and in some part for me necessary, and saddens me no end to see it is still cultivated and promoted by our Anglo based government as acceptable.

Catalina

reading that made me physically ill.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, I'm probably one of the few people here on lit who's not an Australian but can agree with you on this subject. Here's the story.

While out on liberty in Freemantle (yeah, I was military) I was approached by a young woman with small bandages scattered in random places (roughly 4" gauze pads, etc). She was attractive, petite, blonde and ask me if I was American. I said I was and she asked me if it was alright if I came with her as she needed to go to the "pharmacy" as you call drugstores down there. I agreed and as we walked we talked and the conversation came around to her reasoning to my escort. She had been released from the hospital that day after having been stabbed by a local 2 days prior simply for brushing off his advances. (nothing happened to him by the way because she had been judged to be "dressed innapropriately" and so had incited the attack.)

We ended up spending the day with her showing me around town at historic landmarks, etc and telling me how the situation for women was there. She admitted to me not knowing one girl in her circle of friends who hadn't been attacked or raped at some point in their lives.
That's just a little disturbing.

Yep, while it has improved slightly for white Australian women, it still has a long way to go. It was not that many years ago a judge let a paedophile off lightly because the judge claimed the victim would not suffer any lasting effects because the paedophile had drugged and knocked her out first....totally disregarded medical and psychiatric experts whose opinion differed greatly....and the woman who was sued by her rapist for defamation because despite the evidence to the contrary it was seen she contributed to her attack even though she was in her own home...she had dated him at one time..she had to seel her house and borrow money to pay him. Unfortunately, while it is often the police who are blamed, many of them are just as frustrated by the system and it is the judges who are upholding such archaic views and letting off perpetrators.

Catalina

 

[northwoods_sub]

After reading this, I amazingly feel so much better about the US legal system. Even though victims of rape still have to prove that it wasn't consentual at least some justice is served.