Difference between subs and slaves

[princess4u]

there is currently a thread on the board about making the transition from sub to slave - there are so many different definitions of each so i was curious how Doms/Masters view the difference between the two

i'm especially curious b/c my Master and i discussed this topic just yesterday

(and i realize there may already be a thread in the archives of lit on this subject - but i'm mostly interested in the opinions of those who are currently posting here)

 

[kerker_miester]

there is currently a thread on the board about making the transition from sub to slave - there are so many different definitions of each so i was curious how Doms/Masters view the difference between the two

i'm especially curious b/c my Master and i discussed this topic just yesterday

(and i realize there may already be a thread in the archives of lit on this subject - but i'm mostly interested in the opinions of those who are currently posting here)

As I have stated a time or two I am not an authority on BDSM, but being as you asked for the opions of Dom/Master's here is the way I see it. Both have a desire to be dominated, both have needs of course the needs vary person to person. A submissive while she/he submits is still their own person they still want to please their Dom/me they retain a feeling of induviduallity. The slave on the otherhand while having all the traits of a sub decides they feel more comfortable in being a possion of the Dom/me and not identifing with their individuallity but with the Dom/me's, also desirering the acceptance and happiness of the Dom/me over any joy or pleasure of their own. If this is way off base I am always willing to learn more but this is how I see it.

 

[h_i_s]

A submissive while she/he submits is still their own person they still want to please their Dom/me they retain a feeling of induviduallity. The slave on the otherhand while having all the traits of a sub decides they feel more comfortable in being a possion of the Dom/me and not identifing with their individuallity but with the Dom/me's, also desirering the acceptance and happiness of the Dom/me over any joy or pleasure of their own. If this is way off base I am always willing to learn more but this is how I see it.

i am ALMOST in agreement with your view here kerker. You lost me though, in regard to the last portion of your opinion, which i have quoted above.

While i don't care for labels, if i had to choose, i would say that i certainly identify with the label of slave vs. submissive.

my view of a submissive is that they certainly take pleasure in serving their PYL. i would also say that a submissive is certainly still their own person with a sense of being individual in retaining their rights regarding making many of their own choices. Many submissives that i know certainly have their own opinions which may or may not differ from those of their PYL. i also know of many who would lean more toward the label of submissive, who ARE viewed as possessions of, and owned by their PYL.

As a submissive who identifies with the label of 'slave', i certainly have a strong sense of individuality. Although i do take great pleasure in serving Him, i do not always agree with my Master's opinions, & choices. i do however obey Him regardless of whether i agree with Him or not. The reason i say i identify more closely with the label of slave is due to the fact that i am NOT allowed to make ALL of my own choices. i am also not allowed to say 'no' to my Master, or deny Him His rights in regard to having the final say in any matter with which He and i may disagree. Do i have a few limits? Hell yes, of course i do.

my main hard limit is that He never misuse His power & control over me as an excuse to neglect nor abuse me. The only other limits are those hard limits which were discussed and agreed to prior to my acceptance of His collar. Two of those hard limits no longer exist ...
by mutual agreement. (never say never. )

i gave a one time, infinite consent and submission to obey & serve Him in any way that He chooses.
That's the only real difference i see between labeling myself as a slave vs. a submissive to my Master..

IMHO, while this owned and collared slave is the property of her Master, she IS certainly an individual, with a brain, as well as, opinions & beliefs of her own, which may or may not mirror those of her Master .. however, in expressing those differences, she honors Him by doing so in a manner that is not disrespectful toward Him nor His opinions & beliefs.

IMHO, the only difference between a submissive and a slave are the differences regarding the levels of consent and/or limits agreed to between that slave/submissive and their PYL.

 

[catalina_francisco]

As a slave I have to agree with most of what sinnOcent says about her role. You will find there are as many variations on definitions of sub/slave as there are likely relationships so the important thing is what it means to those involved. For us it is a 24/7 TPE relationship which means I have surrendered all rights and limits to his power, but by no means is it abused by him or seen as my taking on a brainless role that mindlessly promotes all his traits and choices as my own preferred ones.

He was attracted to me for my mind and uses it in ways which benefit both of us...he also was attracted to the fact I was my own woman and could and had survived on my own against many odds. He is secure enough in himself to not need a slave whose total brainpower amounts to saying 'yes Master', nor one who does not possess a personality and individuuality that makes them unique. The value of having a slave who has their own identity is that the owner can be proud of his/her unique possession who is unlike all others and possesses qualities that make them who they are as opposed to an empty shelled clone.

Catalina

 

[h_i_s]

As a slave I have to agree with most of what sinnOcent says about her role. You will find there are as many variations on definitions of sub/slave as there are likely relationships so the important thing is what it means to those involved. For us it is a 24/7 TPE relationship which means I have surrendered all rights and limits to his power, but by no means is it abused by him or seen as my taking on a brainless role that mindlessly promotes all his traits and choices as my own preferred ones.

He was attracted to me for my mind and uses it in ways which benefit both of us...he also was attracted to the fact I was my own woman and could and had survived on my own against many odds. He is secure enough in himself to not need a slave whose total brainpower amounts to saying 'yes Master', nor one who does not possess a personality and individuuality that makes them unique. The value of having a slave who has their own identity is that the owner can be proud of his/her unique possession who is unlike all others and possesses qualities that make them who they are as opposed to an empty shelled clone.

Catalina

Thank you, Catalina!! Many timeswhile reading your posts, it's like hearing my own thoughts. You touched on the one thing i had thought of, couldn't find the exact words for expressing and then simply forgot to say. The second paragraph of your post is a very valid and important point of which i could not agree more with. Good post ... as usual.

 

[Marquis]

Interesting responses.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Thank you, Catalina!! Many timeswhile reading your posts, it's like hearing my own thoughts. You touched on the one thing i had thought of, couldn't find the exact words for expressing and then simply forgot to say. The second paragraph of your post is a very valid and important point of which i could not agree more with. Good post ... as usual.

Seems we think alike on each other's posts often. I do think there is a misconception that slave means no brainer when IMHO it more often than not means huge challenge. It is not the easiest thing to do, nor the most simple for many. I have found that out often, not the least when I was told he expected me to engage in the act of topping a male. That one sent me into a tailspin for some weeks until I wrapped my head around the idea once again about what I had agreed to and that if he commanded it, my carrying out his commands was submission no matter how it might appear to an uninformed onlooker.

Basically it is about serving his needs and desires and though I may not always succeed, the important thing is giving it my best shot as opposed to trying to excuse my way out of it....that is what then in turn gives me pleasure. I am allowed to voice my concerns, discuss what might block my success, but the final decision is his. It has proved to be an interesting journey and one which has brought growth and challenge.

Catalina

 

[kerker_miester]

very good

i am ALMOST in agreement with your view here kerker. You lost me though, in regard to the last portion of your opinion, which i have quoted above.

While i don't care for labels, if i had to choose, i would say that i certainly identify with the label of slave vs. submissive.

my view of a submissive is that they certainly take pleasure in serving their PYL. i would also say that a submissive is certainly still their own person with a sense of being individual in retaining their rights regarding making many of their own choices. Many submissives that i know certainly have their own opinions which may or may not differ from those of their PYL. i also know of many who would lean more toward the label of submissive, who ARE viewed as possessions of, and owned by their PYL.

As a submissive who identifies with the label of 'slave', i certainly have a strong sense of individuality. Although i do take great pleasure in serving Him, i do not always agree with my Master's opinions, & choices. i do however obey Him regardless of whether i agree with Him or not. The reason i say i identify more closely with the label of slave is due to the fact that i am NOT allowed to make ALL of my own choices. i am also not allowed to say 'no' to my Master, or deny Him His rights in regard to having the final say in any matter with which He and i may disagree. Do i have a few limits? Hell yes, of course i do.

my main hard limit is that He never misuse His power & control over me as an excuse to neglect nor abuse me. The only other limits are those hard limits which were discussed and agreed to prior to my acceptance of His collar. Two of those hard limits no longer exist ...
by mutual agreement. (never say never. )

i gave a one time, infinite consent and submission to obey & serve Him in any way that He chooses.
That's the only real difference i see between labeling myself as a slave vs. a submissive to my Master..

IMHO, while this owned and collared slave is the property of her Master, she IS certainly an individual, with a brain, as well as, opinions & beliefs of her own, which may or may not mirror those of her Master .. however, in expressing those differences, she honors Him by doing so in a manner that is not disrespectful toward Him nor His opinions & beliefs.

IMHO, the only difference between a submissive and a slave are the differences regarding the levels of consent and/or limits agreed to between that slave/submissive and their PYL.

sinn0cent I have to say that you did a much better job of saying what I was trying to say thank you. I did not mean to imply that you had no brain or opinions, as i said you did a better job than me.

 

[Kajira Callista]

there is currently a thread on the board about making the transition from sub to slave - there are so many different definitions of each so i was curious how Doms/Masters view the difference between the two

i'm especially curious b/c my Master and i discussed this topic just yesterday

(and i realize there may already be a thread in the archives of lit on this subject - but i'm mostly interested in the opinions of those who are currently posting here)

i dont think there is a difference. a sub is submissive and a slave is submissive. the only difference i can see is a difference in relationship types, not people.

 

[Netzach]

I view a slave as my owned property to treat as I see fit.

The submissive is someone who I have a sense of mutual contract with, a sense of "you will do this, I will or will not do this, we will decide this" a submissive is simply a person with a submissive orientation, and how we operate around that is decided jointly to a degree.

A slave is someone who may or may not even have a submissive orientation, but who understands that they are entering into a contract whereby I have all the rights and all the decision making capabilities and owe them, essentially nothing. Full, fair warning in advance, make your decision slowly.

 

[serijules]

As a submissive, my mindframe was often more so on what my own desires and limits were than solely on my partners desires. I'm not ashamed to admit that, and when I play with other Dom's that I do not belong to, it is because I enjoy the play and enjoy interacting with them, even if I am still the submissive one in the interaction. The choice is mine.

As an owned slave, my desires are of no concern. My limits do not exist (withen reason). Decisions are not mine to make, and i am not ALLOWED to put my pleasure before my Owners.

The difference between *a* slave and *a* submissive is of little interest to me as I don't think there is a definable difference....it varys from person to person. For ME, the difference between me as a submissive and me as a slave is simple. As as a submissive, I have a choice in who I submit to and how much of myself I give over to them. As a slave, I have no such choice, as I am only allowed to give myself that fully to one person, and I have no choice but to do so fully. As a submissive, I have the power to negotiate my relationship and my interactions and my limits with my partner. As a slave, I relinquished that power when I accepted her collar.

 

[onceburned]

I am going to borrow the definition used in another website.

The difference between a submissive and a slave is that one of them has four orgasms per night, and the other has five.

 

[INSIDEYOURMIND]

The Difference

I read this thread with interest, and thought I would give my opinion from the Dominant/Master side of the bathroom door.

The label is not the important thing to focus on, who or what you are is determined from within.

Someone not in the lifestyle would be shocked to know that a man or a woman would identify themselves as a submissive or slave. They don't understand that they derive pleasure and satisfaction in living this way.

I own carolyn (sinn0cent1) completely, she understands this, and made a conscious choice to live this way. After she made that single choice, labels were not needed, she fits her role, and finds her place easily (typically at my feet!) because of who she is within. I do not want a doormat, or a mindless dolt. What I have is a vibrant woman that gets all her pleasure from the pleasure she provides me. I make the maority of decisions regarding her dress, food, etc, but she also deals with her children in an authoritative way that the label MOTHER should.

My initial attraction to carolyn was I knew that she had submissive/slave tendencies, what made me truly love her is who she is, creative, smart, obedient, eager to learn, and beautiful. (it didn't hurt that she wasn't afraid of snakes either!) If I stifled any of these attributes, she would not be who I chose to have submit to me, which is just as much a conscious choice as submitting.

In accepting carolyn as my property (and sorry, I do not subscribe to the gift of submiision theory) I accept the enormous responsibility of the trust she has given to me. The fact that she is so willing to blindly give of herself, it is my mandate to keep her safe. The goals of who you identify in your own relationship should be far more important than the label.

Don't get stuck on trying to put a label on who or what you are, it's like putting a round peg in a square hole. Celebrate the feelings you get, either from obeying the one you love, or being the obeyed!

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges!"
Alfonso Bedoya in The Treasure of the Sierra Madre

 

[SueJ]

ROFLOL over Onceburned's definition!

I call my Husband "Master" and myself His submissive, but He refers to me as His "slave", which is probably more accurate. I am allowed to speak my mind freely, but decisions are made by Him. Since He takes ownership responsibilities seriously, I am expected to tell Him of any physical/emotional/psychological pain so that He can make informed decisions regarding my activities and His requirements. There are no limits in our relationship, although I know in my heart that He would never intentionally damage me in any way. He pushes me beyond my comfort zone sometimes in His demands, but it is His caring nature and my trust in Him that enable me to submit completely and without limits. Pushing me beyond my comfort zone is something we both have always accepted as necessary for the growth and bonding of the relationship.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Bump anyone?

 

[WriterDom]

The only "true" slaves can be sold on the open market at a fair price.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I was talking to a friend of mine the other night and he is really intrigued about slaves. It's kind of the ultimate fantasy for him. And he asked me lots of questions about it that I really couldn't answer.

I'd love to see more discussion on this from people who are in that lifestyle. I hope this thread moves again.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

I think this is one of the "downsides" (for lack of a better word) of BDSM. There are too many labels and too many people trying to fit perfectly in each label. I, for one, am guilty of this.

I think BDSM at its core and what makes it great is all about the feelings and not about the labels. It's something that can't be explained or even labeled.

It's like if I tried to explain to someone I am in a D/s relationship all they will understand are the labels. They won't get the why. Only people in the lifestyle understand the why.

I sometimes wonder, is my SO my slave or more my sub? In the end it shouldn't matter. Because she is Mine. And that is the most important thing.

 

[myinnerslut]

i cant speak everyone, only of my own personal experience in my role as a sub and my role as a slave. to cut down on personal confusion im am going to stick with discriptors of my current relationship, not my experiences with my ex.

its easier to say how things changed when i went from one to the other then it is to try to list all the attributes of both. the most visible change was my collar. as a submissive to Homburg, i didnt wear a collar. this may have just been the timing, as he made my collar himself and needed time to do so, but the fact remains, the day i recieved my collar was the day i was collared as his slave.

the next most obvious change is in honorifics. as a sub i used "Sir". as a slave i used "Master".

a big difference is seen in limits. as a sub i had a few hard limits and a safeword which i could have used if i felt it was neccesarry. when i was collared as a slave i gave up my limits and my safeword. to date i have een in one situation (involving being bound, gagged, and beaten with a singletail) in which i missed my safeword. after the fact, im glad i didnt have it becuase i ended up enjoying the experience overall.

another change is more subtle. as a sub, Master was a main focus of my life. i wanted to please him. i tried to please him. i took care of myself for him. i do they same things now as a slave. as a sub, Master was among the highest priorities in my life. now Master is THE highest priority in my life, and if my priorities go lacking for whatever reason there will be hell to pay.

 

[Homburg]

On Negotiation, the Cliff Notes version:

Sub - These are my limits. Respect them.
Slave - What are my limits, Master?

--

On saying No:

PYL and pyl are going out to dinner with the PYL's family and are running late. PYL decides that it's spanking time. pyl realises that time is an issue, and decides that it is in the PYL's best interest to say something.

Sub - Sir, I am not sure that this is a good idea, as we are already running late and your family is probably already there.

Slave - Master, so you know, we are already running late and your family is probably already there. *said while bending over*

In the first situation, the Dom and sub discuss the issue and the Dom makes the decision based on all the information. In the second situation, the slave gets a red ass.

--

Just some examples.

 

[nh23]

Up until the relationship I'm in now, I've always identified as a submissive. Even though I've been told by many that when it comes to the majority of the PYL's I've been with, that I have the mindset of a slave. I'm probably going to screw this up, but the difference to me and for me is devotion. Even identifying as a submissive I've never told my PYL no. I may ask questions, I may drag my feet, but in the end I always do what is asked of me. Previously I always had a safeword..but never used it. Stuff like that I suppose. I'm not saying that submissives are not devoted. I suppose it's what a lot of other people say..limits. I do have limits that I do not want to cross, but I gave up the right to those when I entered into this relationship. And believe me some of them have been crossed..lol. But, in the end I'm always glad for it, and always glad that I have been pleasing to my PYL.

I call my PYL, Master. He calls me slave or pet. For me there really isn't a whole lot of difference in how I am now and how I've always been. I was allowed to have limits then and never used them. Now I can still dislike something, or not want to do it..that's my right. It just isn't my right to say no.

I suppose one of the reasons I've always identified as a submissive is the misconception that slaves are doormats. Anyone who knows me, knows how untrue that is..lol. I submit to ONE man..that is it. I have the right to tell the rest of the world to fuck off and do so frequently.

Another reason was because in some relationships you see where the Master has asked the slave to do something totally insane, and the slave is bragging because she did it. ( I'm talking about extremes here, mostly fantasy) After some long heart to hearts with Master when I first met him..and with the help of Bunny and Homburg I came to realize that a good Master loves his slave. He will take total control, but he always makes sure not to "break" his property. A good Master is not going to tell you to jump off a ten story roof, nor is he going to push something that will totally emotionally break you without some work up to it, assuming it's something necessary.

That may have been a crazy rant..I'm tired today.

 

[gingermango]

I view a slave as my owned property to treat as I see fit.

The submissive is someone who I have a sense of mutual contract with, a sense of "you will do this, I will or will not do this, we will decide this" a submissive is simply a person with a submissive orientation, and how we operate around that is decided jointly to a degree.

A slave is someone who may or may not even have a submissive orientation, but who understands that they are entering into a contract whereby I have all the rights and all the decision making capabilities and owe them, essentially nothing. Full, fair warning in advance, make your decision slowly.

*shivers*

Netzach is my official kinky lexicographer . . .

(Thanks to Catalina for bumping up this old thread, too!)

 

[JMohegan]

there is currently a thread on the board about making the transition from sub to slave - there are so many different definitions of each so i was curious how Doms/Masters view the difference between the two

Mainstream = decision making authority openly acknowledged as, or assumed to be, joint. Recurring negotiation, compromise, etc., employed to resolve differences of preference or choice.

D/s = authority openly acknowledged as, or assumed to be, one-sided with regard to one or more aspects of a personal relationship. No expectation of negotiation, compromise, or refusal by the s when differences of preference or choice arise in these areas.

M/s = authority openly acknowledged as, or assumed to be, one-sided with regard to all aspects of a personal relationship. It is also acknowledged, or assumed, that the M exerts authority over all aspects of the life of the s as well. No expectation of negotiation, compromise, or refusal by the s when differences of preference or choice arise.

 

[Fauna]

Great discussion! I like seeing everyone's responses and points of view.

As a Domme, my experience in the difference between having a sub and a slave was the level of devotion from my slave.

I was his total focus. He anticipated my needs and looked forward to my sadistic requests. I don't remember him ever saying no.... sigh.

 

[YourCaptor]

I would say, slaves exist to serve someone while a sub likes to serve someone.

For example, a sub will have a career while, a slave does the work master says they are to do.