Cross post from How to...

[Erozetta]

I agree that the incel movement is a small subset, but where's the proof of this hair trigger violence hypothesis?
We've had political violence/mass shootings carried out by people with various causes and manifestos, I don't see any reason to believe that the incel community is over represented.
The reality is ANY movement is going to have it's share of crazies.

I didn't say overrepresented, I said this is an issue within this group that shouldn't be ignored or downplayed. It's the same as violent factions within other groups. They shouldn't be ignored either. Outliers are the dangerous aspects within any group and they need to be stopped before they become the entirety of the group.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

But that redistribution is not unique to any political creed. Right wing governments want to redistribute power and resources towards their favoured political, social, religious or racial group.

Any viewpoint that sees women as a commodity whose distribution should be decided by men is the very definition of misogyny. It's denying women their humanity. I suppose, within that you could have socialist groups, who want women divided "fairly", and centrist who want a "free market" and right wingers who want women reserved for particular social/religious groups. But who gives a fuck, as all of those views are equally abhorrent.

However, no leftwing group that I've ever heard of has ever advocated redistributing women. Plenty of right wing groups do, however: ISIS did in the Caliphate they established.

ISIS isn't a "right wing" group by any meaningful definition of the term.
Since you said, "plenty of right wing groups do" could you provide some more examples. If there are "plenty" that should be easy.

If you want an example of a left wing group, try Jim Jones and his Peoples Temple. He assigned couples and had to approve any relationships.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't think Emily said anything about left or right, and I don't think many would disagree with either of you. She's not blaming either side.

Aside: shouldn't this be on the Politics forum? What does any of this have to do with Authors?

And I never said she did. No need to white knight. I made an observation of a real world example of what she was discussing.
Other people in this thread are being critical of the right, why aren't you concerned about that, or calling people out for politics?

 

[big_cane_sugar]

With the risk of being called Andrew Tate over this topic once again, I agree with your assertion. I also think that more than 50% of women prefer good guys. The problem is that the ratio is nowhere near the same across different age groups.

With teens/girls/young women, it's easily above 50% in favor of bad guys. But after a certain age, it drops rapidly, so the overall ratio favors good guys, just in the wrong age group.

This, of course, is merely an impression of mine. No one here has any data anyway.

IMO, it's not mostly about "good" or "nice" or "bad" guys. That is definitely part of it sometimes, but I think it's mostly about confidence. I'd bet the numbers are something like 100% of hetero women prefer men who treat them well, but at least 50% prefer men who aren't to shy to flirt or don't assume they're unworthy of love.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Possibly... but this is a thread about how men can get women to date them, not the other way around.

I would definitely not object to a thread about the other way around either! Or also any of the other combinations.

I'm just completely unqualified to contribute to them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

No politics or left or right.

The problem is that people seem less and less to have identities separate to their political tribe. Indeed politicians today actively encourage tribalism as it binds their supporters to them emotionally, rather than relating to any policy platform.

It didn’t use to be this way. My parents have different political leanings, but made a marriage work for decades. Then their views date back to when there was more overlap between what the parties believed, and more of the differences were policy-based, not values based.

Even in my lifetime, the number of people who drop politics into everyday conversation, or indeed have no conversation apart from politics, seems to me to have increased. It’s become religion for many.

I’d describe myself as center left, I don’t believe in the workers seizing the means of production, I have no problem with hard work being rewarded, but I also don’t like the economy being rigged for the sole benefit of an uber-wealthy oligarchy.

On social and sexual issues I’m further left (which is what I’m bemoaning - conservative parties in other countries have decoupled avowedly anti-LGBTQ+ and racist positions from their platforms), then I kinda see people’s point about trans girls in sport.

I see Gaza as a tragedy, and hope for a two-state solution. But I robustly defend Israel’s right to exist, and abhor antisemitism.

So, the outcome is that I’m seen as a fascist by some leftist jerk circles. And a communist by the troglodyte right. We have become so polarized that it feels the middle can’t hold.

 

[SimonDoom]

Knowing more than a handful of guys who are a part of the movement. Not knowing all of them by choice mind you, but by blood relation. There's seriously so many reasons I'm very low contact with my family. But there are also more than a few former friends who fit this mold. They are former friends for a reason and it started with a comment that "rape isn't a real thing. It's just regretting not fighting hard enough." With the basic outcome of the argument being if you're still alive, you consented and I wish like fuck I were being hyperbolic. Oh, and I should note that they were sure to put in the disclaimer of "Except the you, we believe you because we know you." I should also note that they were not like this when I first met them back in 2002/2003. It ramped up to this around 2016 and I cut ties immediately.

In my family, it started with a cousin and slowly enveloped most of the men around him. He was not some hideous man beast, he was charismatic but a grade A raging asshole.

"Incel" as a movement no longer only applies only to men who are involuntary celibate (hell, the whole thing was started by a woman, it has morphed into extreme toxicity along the way.), but has extended to men who are angry that they are not fucking the quality of woman they desire. And realistically, the women they desire are women they see as easily abused and manipulated. (Read: young.)

Many of these guys I know/knew are/were with women who bend over backwards to appease their anger toward women, but they still want relationships with "better" looking women and are pissed off that they have to "work hard" for what they deem a lesser valued relationship. And the women in these relationships often work 2 or more jobs to support their family while the guy will only work up to 40 hours in a week because they don't see their actual existing family as worth more effort than that. They also refuse to marry their partner so that the woman can get on welfare when she has their kid. They want to be able to make a clean break from the relationship "when" someone higher value comes along.


From my dealings with these guys the checklist of high value women is:

Low body count
Might be above the age of consent in some states
Submissive
Christian
Fertile
Model looks
Regularly exercises and barely eats, sometimes this is monitored by the guy.
Will vote how he tells her to.
Will not voice an opinion.
Will not receive sexual pleasure unless it brings him pleasure to give it.
Does not question clearly abusive behavior.
Does not have a support system away from him.
Does not have friends.
Exists as a bangmaid.

Now, the same is true of many of the men who are without relationships in the incel movement (and it is a movement that encourages and has already enacted large scale violence upon women.)

Not all incels fit this description. There are some who just want a relationship, but they are quickly becoming the minority within the group in my experience with them. About two dozen or so of my group of 40-ish guys have gone from "I just want a caring relationship" to "I want a beautiful sex slave who will have my kids, keep house, and not complain about any of my failures as a human being and only that will alleviate my loneliness," In a matter of a few years. About a dozen more are still in the "I just want a relationship, Y'all are fucked" camp. The rest... I'm fucking too afraid of to ask questions. I know they collect guns. I know they think I'm emasculating my husband by earning more money than him. I know they've *already* threatened to set me straight when I come home. (I have not been back to visit my family in over 10 years.) And I know that everyone knows they are dangerous but look the other way because "They haven't hurt anyone yet."


It's a grossly small sample size, but it's the trend I've witnessed escalating over the last ten years or so.

I'm not saying it's universal, but I am saying that the bad actors seem to be gaining ground at a much faster rate than the ones who just want a relationship.

I know this exists because I read about it, but honestly, I can't say I've encountered it personally. Off the top of my head I cannot think of a male acquaintance who has these attitudes about women -- or, at least, has expressed them in my presence. I have heard stories from people I know about men they know expressing some similar views, but I haven't encountered them directly.

 

[Erozetta]

I know this exists because I read about it, but honestly, I can't say I've encountered it personally. Off the top of my head I cannot think of a male acquaintance who has these attitudes about women -- or, at least, has expressed them in my presence. I have heard stories from people I know about men they know expressing some similar views, but I haven't encountered them directly.

That's a good thing.

If everyone has personally experienced any man talking like this, we've gone beyond a point of no return. While hearing of someone else having heard it isn't a great degree of separation, it's still a degree that says there is still some hope that this can be fixed and these men can get help to not be so angry with others over their own perceived failures.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Aside: shouldn't this be on the Politics forum? What does any of this have to do with Authors?

I find myself reacting to people casually dropping political points into posts about something else entirely. I’d much rather they stopped and we could focus on writing. But I’m not going to ignore proselytizing and just say ‘oh well.’

I can’t think of any occasion on which I’ve made a political comment save when a) it’s actually about treating others as you’d like to be treated yourself or b) as someone else said something political first.

I kinda wish that @AH_Mod would delete anything political immediately - including my responses - and let us talk about something else. But it has to be all posts with a political undertone.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I know this exists because I read about it, but honestly, I can't say I've encountered it personally. Off the top of my head I cannot think of a male acquaintance who has these attitudes about women -- or, at least, has expressed them in my presence. I have heard stories from people I know about men they know expressing some similar views, but I haven't encountered them directly.

It's the internet... I agree because I've never met any guys who espouse anything remotely like that. The men I know (largely conservative) think the whole incel movement is funny/sad. It's an overreaction to a problem.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I find myself reacting to people casually dropping political points into posts about something else entirely. I’d much rather they stopped and we could focus on writing. But I’m not going to ignore proselytizing and just say ‘oh well.’

I can’t think of any occasion on which I’ve made a political comment save when a) it’s actually about treating others as you’d like to be treated yourself or b) as someone else said something political first.

I kinda wish that @AH_Mod would delete anything political immediately - including my responses - and let use talk about something else. But it has to be all posts with a political undertone.

You proselytize in threads here in the AH.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Anyway, it seems to me that the political angle of it has been well-discussed so maybe we can go on to other aspects....

 

[SimonDoom]

It's the internet... I agree because I've never met any guys who espouse anything remotely like that. The men I know (largely conservative) think the whole incel movement is funny/sad. It's an overreaction to a problem.

I have no doubt that the "incel phenomenon" exists, but I wonder if it's somewhat exaggerated. For example, the term "incel" is often used in this forum to describe a certain cohort among the Loving Wives readers. But I don't think "incel" is quite the right term. A lot of the vitriol appears to come -- appears, as far as I can tell--from men who've had negative personal experiences with a marital partner, and these stories trigger them. "Incel" isn't quite the right word to describe those men. The problem isn't that they're not having sex with women.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I feel this thread is making so many of my points for me… I’ve outsourced defending my views to others, and they are doing a really great job of it .

 

[big_cane_sugar]

I have no doubt that the "incel phenomenon" exists, but I wonder if it's somewhat exaggerated. For example, the term "incel" is often used in this forum to describe a certain cohort among the Loving Wives readers. But I don't think "incel" is quite the right term. A lot of the vitriol appears to come -- appears, as far as I can tell--from men who've had negative personal experiences with a marital partner, and these stories trigger them. "Incel" isn't quite the right word to describe those men. The problem isn't that they're not having sex with women.

I work with young people so I don't know if "incel" per se is exaggerated but the influence of people like Andrew Tate is not. I had an encouraging experience 2-3 years ago with a young man who was going in that direction but over the course of a few months I persuaded him that girls don't actually hate guys. A lot of his anger vanished when he realized he could talk to girls, even flirt with them.

Part of that might've been that he'd been at home listening to youtube so much during the pandemic and hadn't had enough time at school talking to girls, but anyway that stuff definitely exists.

Also I was part of a "loser" friend group in high school and we definitely spent time feeling sorry for ourselves that girls would supposedly never like us. I think this stuff is pretty common.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Knowing more than a handful of guys who are a part of the movement...

Thanks for the reply. That makes sense but we're also going from 'decent but dateless men' to 'the incel movement' to what I called earlier 'the arsehole path' more generally. As others have said, it's all getting a bit too political so I'm going to bow out.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I didn't say overrepresented, I said this is an issue within this group that shouldn't be ignored or downplayed. It's the same as violent factions within other groups. They shouldn't be ignored either. Outliers are the dangerous aspects within any group and they need to be stopped before they become the entirety of the group.

You did say, "The problem with it is that the majority of men who fall into the movement have violent tendencies and exist on a hair trigger..."

I don't see any evidence to support the violence hypothesis. There are violent people in any marginized group, I don't see any proof that it makes up the majority of men in this particular group. Most are just sad and lonely.

 

[Bramblethorn]

It's hardly a unified movement with a clear manifest, but I'm interested in how or where you've got this impression? What I've seen largely suggests the majority of them would be happy with (almost) any kind of intimate relationship.

Incels spend a LOT of energy on ranking women by desirability. They have terminology and memes for it; if you google "Stacy Becky Chad meme" you'll find illustrations. Some discussion e.g. here:

https://journal-exit.de/wp-content/...e-to-Symbols-and-Terminology_Moonshot-CVE.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...had-Becky-and-Stacy-The-Virgin_fig1_351869171

Or if you really want to feel unclean, you can go see how incels talk about it: https://incels.wiki/w/Decile

 

[Erozetta]

You did say, "The problem with it is that the majority of men who fall into the movement have violent tendencies and exist on a hair trigger..."

I don't see any evidence to support the violence hypothesis. There are violent people in any marginized group, I don't see any proof that it makes up the majority of men in this particular group. Most are just sad and lonely.

You're right, I should have said the problem with it is that the majority of men who fall into that subset of the movement (a portion of the portion of men who struggle to date). A large portion of a smaller portion is what I meant. Apologies for mistyping that.

And by that, what I meant is they have violent tendencies, not that they are outwardly violent towards women. These are the types of men (in my experience) who swerve in order to hit animals in the road because it brings them glee to hurt small things, particularly if someone (a woman or child in particular) who is sensitive to small things being harmed is trapped in the car with them.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I work with young people so I don't know if "incel" per se is exaggerated but the influence of people like Andrew Tate is not. I had an encouraging experience 2-3 years ago with a young man who was going in that direction but over the course of a few months I persuaded him that girls don't actually hate guys. A lot of his anger vanished when he realized he could talk to girls, even flirt with them.

Part of that might've been that he'd been at home listening to youtube so much during the pandemic and hadn't had enough time at school talking to girls, but anyway that stuff definitely exists.

Also I was part of a "loser" friend group in high school and we definitely spent time feeling sorry for ourselves that girls would supposedly never like us. I think this stuff is pretty common.

I suspect it's been a universal theme from time immemorial.

There are actually a series of SNL sketches where he and Jon Lovitz play self described losers who can't get attention from women.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Or if you really want to feel unclean, you can go see how incels talk about it: https://incels.wiki/w/Decile

I'm not suggesting it's not icky and I'm certainly not suggesting it's right, but my understanding of the chart is that it's less about 'I deserve at least a 9' and more about 'Even if I accept that I'm objectively a 2, surely that means there should be 2-level women who wants to date me? Right?' Then there's a whole bunch of cod pseudo-research on top of that to explain why that's not the case for a lot of guys.

 

[Britva415]

What does any of this have to do with Authors?

To be fair, that question probably applies to the overall crosspost, and not just to the naked partisanship which erupted.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Or if you really want to feel unclean, you can go see how incels talk about it: https://incels.wiki/w/Decile

What do you consider "unclean" about that web page?

And what's the evidence that they spend "a lot" of energy on this?

People seem to have created a caricature of something and are desperate to make it real.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I'm not suggesting it's not icky and I'm certainly not suggesting it's right, but my understanding of the chart is that it's less about 'I deserve at least a 9' and more about 'Even if I accept that I'm objectively a 2, surely that means there should be 2-level women who wants to date me? Right?' Then there's a whole bunch of cod pseudo-research on top of that to explain why that's not the case for a lot of guys.

I posted that link primarily to make the point that incels do construct a hierarchy of female attractiveness (and spend a lot of time thinking about it) rather than just lumping all women together in one unattainable category.

If it were all as you're describing, the anger of guys who consider themselves "2"s on the scale should be directed primarily towards female "2"s, but in fact there's *plenty* of anger directed towards "Beckys" and "Stacys" too. I'll admit I don't hang out on those kinds of forums but from what I do see spilling over, there seems to be very little ink spilled on how male 2s might get together with female 2s.

(Please assume copious vomit emojis any time I refer to rating human beings on a ten-point scale.)

My impression is that there are self-described "incels" who do have the attitude you describe here, but also others who are closer to the position Erozetta described. I think we're all in agreement on the "whole bunch of cod pseudo-research" part.

I don't consider the ADL to be a universally trustworthy source but I'm not aware of reasons to expect them to misreport this particular issue: here they are reporting results of polls on a major incel forum. About one in six report having had a romantic relationship and a similar percentage report having had sex - which is a minority, but still a significant percentage of self-described "incels" (even though other incels would consider them to be Not A True Incel).

 

[TheRedChamber]

but in fact there's *plenty* of anger directed towards "Beckys" and "Stacys" too.

The incel movement is ultimately just about anger towards everyone.