Cross post from How to...

[nice90sguy]

This thread reminds me of my story "Who The Fuck are You, Anyway?" about a guy who goes on a life-coaching reality TV show (based on "Would Like to Meet") which I wrote back in 2003 and took down in a fit of petulance:

The next day, the schedule started in earnest. For the next few weeks Tim would spend much of his life in the company of the experts, and a couple of slobby, blasé, seasoned professional camera operators.

Susanne started the first filmed session, teaching him the basics of chatting up women, while they sat at his kitchen table. Richard looked on. Tanya was not there; she was out working on a shopping list for his wardrobe.

"Ok, Tim. Question: What's the best subject of conversation to have on a date?"

Tim thought, avoiding her eyes. "It depends on the woman really."

"No it doesn't. There's one subject that is always best, on any date."

"Okay... Not the weather... probably not sports... I've got it, Art!" All women would think that you're sensitive and..."

"COLD!" shouted Susanne. "The answer is: HER. Always talk about your date to your date. That fact equally applies to women going out on a date with men. Always talk about the person you're with. Now, talk to me about me, Tim."

Tim fidgeted. He scratched his nose and blurted out, "You know, you're one of the most sexy women I've..." he stopped, confused.

Susanne laughed. "Not bad, but definitely coming on too strong for a first date. Plus you were scratching your nose, which makes you appear dishonest. Try again. Don't tell me things, ask me things. Show me you're interested in me."

"How long were you working at Cosmopolitan?"

"Better. Lean forward." He leaned forward, knocking his coffee mug. "I still work there. I've been doing it for about twelve years now."

"TWELVE YEARS? I didn't think you were that old! Wow, I was still at school then."

"Look at my eyes. Not my tits, Tim. My eyes are up here. Well I was also still at school when I started. I'm actually three years younger than you. Stop looking at the cameramen; they're just changing a reel of film. Christ."

"Really, and when did you start changing a reel of film?"

Richard, leaning against a cupboard with his arms folded, interrupted. "Tim, listen to her, give her your attention. And respond. Dialog, Tim, give and take."

Tim stared at her lips as she spoke. He got a hard-on, imagining those lips tickling his balls, still chattering, yammering away. Suddenly he leaped up and left the kitchen, and ran up the stairs to his bedroom, slamming the door.

"Leave him for a minute Su."

"No. I'm going to break the ice. You lot stay put."

 

[AG31]

And - again - forming a non-sexual friendship with a woman isn’t a waste of time. If you think that, perhaps I’ve just identified your central problem in dating.

Good advice.

 

[jsmiam]

So you’re tellin’ me that other thread’s title wasn’t “how to get your girlfriend to have sex with a woman…”

This is lit. I have expectations!!

 

[SimonDoom]

The notion that "A man can't be friends with a woman" was a funny idea in When Harry Met Sally, but it's a bad principle to act on in real life.

Many of my relationships have begun as friendships, too. As a purely pragmatic matter for both parties, it's useful to know somebody before you start dating them. It can be more awkward to learn basic things about somebody after you've done the deed.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

https://open.substack.com/pub/noahb...?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1zd57j

Brilliant exploration of this.

TLDR:
Essentially, men get it wrong when they see dating as a means to improve their standing with, impress or supplant other men. In such instances, the woman as a person gets forgotten - she only matters if dating her will give the man status.

Incels aren't really angry they can't get women: they are angry they can't get women that will impress other men.

Coming back to the thread - men need to be interested in women as individuals not status symbols.

He never actually makes the case for that though. He just states it and we're supposed to take it as truth.
Then anything he disagrees with is "a lie" and we are just supposed to accept that as well.

Interestingly, he also says that being a good and decent person has nothing to do with dating success.

Also, not sure if his argument that, "you don't need a girlfriend, there's always masturbation and prostitutes" is a winning one.

 

[Britva415]

Everyone I've ever dated was a friend first.

Was it "the friend zone," though? Or was it an uncontrived, organic development while genuinely just being friends?

forget this “friend zone” BS

Which one? It means different things to different people. What nobody means by "friendzone" though is, just being friends without either party harboring other intentions, secretly or otherwise.

By definition the friendzone is some type of a manipulation, and it is not BS to know that a bunch of different forms of that exist.

Me, I think it's something guys do to themselves. When they cling to a friend hoping and pining that one day she'll develop feelings for him, that's manipulation and not real friendship and not "just being friends."

Since it's unquestionable that this happens in real life, is it BS?

"The friendzone" is not just being plain old friends. And it's also not synonymous with "she rejected me," because what it is is an unhealthy reaction to being romantically or sexually rejected. If the guy moves on, he's not in the friendzone.

These are the definitions I myself find useful, anyway. There are others.

Which form of the alleged friendzone did you have in mind? I'm not saying it's not BS (without knowing what you're talking about), I'm just saying it means so many different things that we should be clear what we mean.

I'm also not saying we can't be just-friends. But not every friendship is in good faith. That shouldn't come off as BS either, should it? I know that nobody is going to pretend that that isn't true.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Was it "the friend zone," though? Or was it an uncontrived, organic development while genuinely just being friends?


Which one? It means different things to different people. What nobody means by "friendzone" though is, just being friends without either party harboring other intentions, secretly or otherwise.

By definition the friendzone is some type of a manipulation, and it is not BS to know that a bunch of different forms of that exist.

Me, I think it's something guys do to themselves. When they cling to a friend hoping and pining that one day she'll develop feelings for him, that's manipulation and not real friendship and not "just being friends."

Since it's unquestionable that this happens in real life, is it BS?

"The friendzone" is not just being plain old friends. And it's also not synonymous with "she rejected me."

Which form of the alleged friendzone did you have in mind? I'm not saying it's not BS, I'm just saying it means so many different things that we should be clear what we mean.

I've known women who openly admit that they friendzoned someone.
The most egregious referred to him as essentially a backup plan, keeping him on a string in case nothing better came along.

It's an incredibly complicated issue, and trying to boil it down to pithy forum posts is a fool's errand.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Was it "the friend zone," though? Or was it an uncontrived, organic development?

Okay, so I've never actually been in a poly relationship. I came close once, but that's a story for a different thread. Anyways, point is, I have come to realize that I am inherently poly by nature and so there is no one that I wouldn't allow into my friend zone that I could not grow a deeper relationship with.

To a certain extent, yes this includes women, even though the kind of closer relationship I'd have with them would not be sexual or romantic. It'd just be like platonic bromance between women? Is there a word for that?

Anyways, most of my friends it'll never develop past friendship, they're all in the friendzone, because dammit, forgot what I was saying.

Oh right! Friendzone is where things start, and I have to make a conscious decision to allow them to go further, because falling in love is a conscious choice for me.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I don’t have the data to back this up, but IMO, for every woman drooling over a bad boy, there is at least another noping big time; and I actually think the second category is more numerous than the first.

With the risk of being called Andrew Tate over this topic once again, I agree with your assertion. I also think that more than 50% of women prefer good guys. The problem is that the ratio is nowhere near the same across different age groups.

With teens/girls/young women, it's easily above 50% in favor of bad guys. But after a certain age, it drops rapidly, so the overall ratio favors good guys, just in the wrong age group.

This, of course, is merely an impression of mine. No one here has any data anyway.

 

[EmilyMiller]

With teens/girls/young women, it's easily above 50% in favor of bad guys.

Can you remember that far back?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Can you remember that far back?

Don't need to.

 

[Britva415]

there is no one that I wouldn't allow into my friend zone that I could not grow a deeper relationship with.

To a certain extent, yes this includes women, even though the kind of closer relationship I'd have with them would not be sexual or romantic. It'd just be like platonic bromance between women? Is there a word for that?

Anyways, most of my friends it'll never develop past friendship, they're all in the friendzone, because dammit, forgot what I was saying.

Oh right! Friendzone is where things start, and I have to make a conscious decision to allow them to go further, because falling in love is a conscious choice for me.

I get that you're calling this "the friendzone," but it sounds to me like it's just being friends and stuff might just happen to develop.

Which is not what I think most people call "the friendzone." To me, that's when one of them wants to be more than friends and the other one doesn't, and there's a clinging and a wistful waiting and hoping. And there are other things it means to other people, too, which also involve some kind of subterfuge and manipulation, but is not "just being friends."

Maybe we can call this "friends with potential?"

Where, everything is in good faith.

But again, this is the problem with using the "friendzone" label in the first place: It isn't clear what anyone ever means if they don't spell it out.

 

[Britva415]

It's an incredibly complicated issue, and trying to boil it down to pithy forum posts is a fool's errand.

Yeah. That's why I'm encouraging people to be clear what they mean.

I don't think there is an inherently complex issue, I think that what's complex is that several different issues are all being called the friend zone or friendzoning.

 

[EmilyMiller]

This thread is spiralling toward man vs bear territory. Why do people need to complicate things so much?

Be nice*. Don’t pretend to be interested in a woman just as a ruse to fuck her. Treat women as something other than a sextoy and you may be surprised how lucky you get. You’ll at least stand out from those with solely ulterior motives; and yes it is often fucking obvious when that is your aim.

Even no-strings sex needs both parties to be comfortable around each other. Even a messy, dirty, one night fuck needs the participants to feel safe.

But hey, don’t listen to me. Just keep doing what you are doing. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

Soooo glad I don’t have to date.

—

* If you need a legalistic definition of what ‘be nice’ means, then this may be part of the problem

 

[Kelliezgirl]

This thread is spiralling toward man vs bear territory. Why do people need to complicate things so much?

Be nice. Don’t pretend to be interested in a woman just as a ruse to fuck her. Treat women as something other than a sextoy and you may be surprised how lucky you get. You’ll at least stand out from those with solely ulterior motives; and yes it is often fucking obvious when that is your aim.

Even no-strings sex needs both parties to be comfortable around each other. Even a messy, dirty, one night fuck needs the participants to feel safe.

But hey, don’t listen to me. Just keep doing what you are doing. It doesn’t bother me in the least.

Soooo glad I don’t have to date.

Because it is complicated.
Do you really think solution for men is "just be nice" and suddenly women will fall all over them?
That's as patently absurd as all the Man vs. Bear nonsense was.
If you put a woman in a room with 2 doors and said "pick an exit, there's a man in that hallway and a bear in that one" 100% of the women would pick the man.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Yeah. That's why I'm encouraging people to be clear what they mean.

I don't think there is an inherently complex issue, I think that what's complex is that several different issues are all being called the friend zone or friendzoning.

Gender swapped friend zone.

 

[Erozetta]

My advice would be:

Approach any potential friendship or relationship from a genuine place.

If you know right away you want to fuck the other person and have no interest in them beyond fucking them, don't pretend to build a friendship with them first. It's dishonest and shitty to pretend to be someone you're not to gain the trust of others. This is a self-imposed friendzoning and you only have yourself to blame.

It's the same the opposite way, don't pretend to befriend someone you know is interested in fucking you to have them on hold as a backup plan. That's also dishonest and shitty and is the traditional meaning of friendzoned.

If you want to be their friend initially and feelings develop later, well, the outcome depends on your reaction to their reaction. If you decide to tell them, that is. This is not being friendzoned, this is just the risk involved with caring about people and getting close to them.

But there's also the concept of loving your friends, which can cause fleeting moments of sensual feelings for them, but are ultimately just about wanting them to be happy and feel loved/wanted/appreciated and aren't truly a sexual desire for them, just that sexual behavior may be how you feel you best show care to another person due to the level of intimacy involved.

It can be complicated, and simple, but regardless, honesty with yourself when first establishing any kind of relationship with another person is the best way to start.

Deceit only ever causes heartache and frustration for all involved.

 

[lovecraft68]

And most of the AH is so old that this advice isn't terribly useful anyway.
You'd be better off with a thread dedicated to "knowing the signs of a stroke."

I'm reporting you to HR for being ageist,

Oh, and stay off my lawn.

 

[lovecraft68]

The how to is hot and miss, but the experts in this thread are hilariously pretentious and unintentionally ironic.

 

[Bramblethorn]

If you cut me, do I not bleed?

how did we get to knife play so quickly?

 

[MrHereWriting]

"how to get a girlfriend or have sex with a woman if you're a young man who thinks he can't do it"

Answer: Change the way you think.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

https://open.substack.com/pub/noahb...?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=1zd57j

Brilliant exploration of this.

TLDR:
Essentially, men get it wrong when they see dating as a means to improve their standing with, impress or supplant other men. In such instances, the woman as a person gets forgotten - she only matters if dating her will give the man status.

Incels aren't really angry they can't get women: they are angry they can't get women that will impress other men.

Coming back to the thread - men need to be interested in women as individuals not status symbols.

Is there a reason why this is a men-only thing? Not that I disagree that some, maybe even many, men see dating as a showing of the trophy that their date is, but is it really tied to the male sex only? Do women not do this thing too?

 

[TheRedChamber]

It's being pushed more and more, understandable maybe given the rise of incel and pick-up artists, but, no, the idea that 'If a man struggles with dating it's always fundamentally due to a moral flaw' is as contemptible as 'The unemployed are all terminally lazy'. On yer bike!

 

[AG31]

Is there a reason why this is a men-only thing? Not that I disagree that some, maybe even many, men see dating as a showing of the trophy that their date is, but is it really tied to the male sex only? Do women not do this thing too?

Read the original OP in the How to forum.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Is there a reason why this is a men-only thing? Not that I disagree that some, maybe even many, men see dating as a showing of the trophy that their date is, but is it really tied to the male sex only? Do women not do this thing too?

I think women absolutely do this.
You've got a whole genre on social media of women wanting 6ft, 6 figure, 6 pack... men talking the same way is bad, misogynistic and all the rest. Women saying it is empowering.

We'd be a lot better off if we recognized that both men and women face challenges in all this.