Cross post from How to...

[AwkwardlySet]

Read the original OP in the How to forum.

No offense, but I've no intention to read all of that. It's 16 pages long discussion. The tldr version will be fine.

 

[Britva415]

That's what happens when stuff gets cross-posted.

The "thread" unravels.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I'm reporting you to HR for being ageist,

Oh, and stay off my lawn.

I'm just saying if you haven't been on a date this century, maybe consider that the dating world has changed.

 

[Britva415]

I'm just saying if you haven't been on a date this century, maybe consider that the dating world has changed.

What did the "strokes" comment have to do with that?

 

[Kelliezgirl]

What did the "strokes" comment have to do with that?

It was an attempt at levity.

 

[TheLobster]

It's being pushed more and more, understandable maybe given the rise of incel and pick-up artists, but, no, the idea that 'If a man struggles with dating it's always fundamentally due to a moral flaw' is as contemptible as 'The unemployed are all terminally lazy'. On yer bike!

TIL inceldom is socialism but applied to the dating market.

 

[TheRedChamber]

TIL inceldom is socialism but applied to the dating market.

There's definitely some serious radicalization going on parallel to the current political situation, but I wouldn't exactly say say the incel philosophy was leftist.

 

[THBGato]

Is there a reason why this is a men-only thing? Not that I disagree that some, maybe even many, men see dating as a showing of the trophy that their date is, but is it really tied to the male sex only? Do women not do this thing too?

Possibly... but this is a thread about how men can get women to date them, not the other way around.

 

[TheLobster]

There's definitely some serious radicalization going on parallel to the current political situation, but I wouldn't exactly say say the incel philosophy was leftist.

The society is unfair because the top 20% of privileged Chads are hoarding a disproportionate amount of “resources” (i.e., women), and thus preventing the working celibate class from accessing it so effectively?

Yeah, no, that actually sounds very leftist to me.

 

[TheRedChamber]

The society is unfair because the top 20% of privileged Chads are hoarding a disproportionate amount of “resources” (i.e., women), and thus preventing the working celibate class from accessing it so effectively?

Yeah, no, that actually sounds very leftist to me.

Ha, okay, you win this round.

 

[THBGato]

The society is unfair because the top 20% of privileged Chads are hoarding a disproportionate amount of “resources” (i.e., women), and thus preventing the working celibate class from accessing it so effectively?

Yeah, no, that actually sounds very leftist to me.

It's not leftist because it's a world view that sees women as objects, resources, not people with agency. That pretty much goes against the tenets of socialism. In fact, it's extremely conservative and reactionary: it denies women freedom of choice.

(Also why is it leftist to point out a small percentage of the population owns a huge amount of the world's resources? Right wingers would agree - they would just say "that's a good thing, how do I join?")

But arguing whether incels are left, right or centre is pretty pointless, as doing so implies that there is some coherence to their world view. There isn't.

 

[TheLobster]

It's not leftist because it's a world view that sees women as objects, resources, not people with agency. That pretty much goes against the tenets of socialism. In fact, it's extremely conservative and reactionary: it denies women freedom of choice.

Oh, come on. You are stopping one inch away from straight-up saying "left wing good, right wing bad, simple as"; and surely you don't mean that -- right?

(Also why is it leftist to point out a small percentage of the population owns a huge amount of the world's resources? Right wingers would agree - they would just say "that's a good thing, how do I join?")

But arguing whether incels are left, right or centre is pretty pointless, as doing so implies that there is some coherence to their world view. There isn't.

I admit to not researching the topic very extensively, but as far as I understand, the crux of the incel philosophy -- as opposed to merely getting unlucky finding relationships and/or sex -- is this inherent unfairness that cannot be rectified through actions of the individual alone. "How do I join?" would be the opposite of it, actually; the worldview of avowed incels seems to be more in line with "The society should change so that those stupid Stacies are not allowed to only shag with the Chads, but rather redistributed more fairly."

Hence why it sounds leftist to me, though I caveat this by saying I only just stumbled upon this interpretation because of @TheRedChamber . I haven't heard of anyone else putting it in this way so it's quite likely that this is too simplistic a view. (But then again, "all incels are right-wing misogynists" strikes me as even more of a crude and simplistic view, so...).

 

[lovecraft68]

I'm just saying if you haven't been on a date this century, maybe consider that the dating world has changed.

I go on dates every week with my wife who after 25 years still never fails to surprise and amaze me. Me on the other hand? I think she read the instructional manual.

But I get your point, its a different world now with more people using dating apps than actually meeting people by going out and being social. Back to my wife, she's commented many times she'd hate to be single in this day and age. My younger daughter divorced four years ago at 28 and as the saying goes 'The struggle is real" and she's 32 so a lot closer to this new world you millennials and Gen Z live in

Which is basically the same point that no one here knows everything about everyone, is an expert in either gender, or should speaking knowledgably about how and what to do.

We're talking relationships-even if said relationship is FWB hook ups or one night hit it and quit it, not replacing the brakes in your car.

And that's the issue, people are complex individuals and the ones who think that not only have they figured it out but will tell you that in a post on a porn forum are just being pretentious.

Some things you have to experience for yourself and learn lessons along the way.

This is real life, not a Dr Phil episode.

 

[THBGato]

the worldview of avowed incels seems to be more in line with "The society should change so that those stupid Stacies are not allowed to only shag with the Chads, but rather redistributed more fairly."

But that redistribution is not unique to any political creed. Right wing governments want to redistribute power and resources towards their favoured political, social, religious or racial group.

Any viewpoint that sees women as a commodity whose distribution should be decided by men is the very definition of misogyny. It's denying women their humanity. I suppose, within that you could have socialist groups, who want women divided "fairly", and centrist who want a "free market" and right wingers who want women reserved for particular social/religious groups. But who gives a fuck, as all of those views are equally abhorrent.

However, no leftwing group that I've ever heard of has ever advocated redistributing women. Plenty of right wing groups do, however: ISIS did in the Caliphate they established.

 

[onehitwanda]

how did we get to knife play so quickly?

I'm broken that way, babe.

 

[TheRedChamber]

Oh, come on. You are stopping one inch away from straight-up saying "left wing good, right wing bad, simple as"; and surely you don't mean that -- right?


I admit to not researching the topic very extensively, but as far as I understand, the crux of the incel philosophy -- as opposed to merely getting unlucky finding relationships and/or sex -- is this inherent unfairness that cannot be rectified through actions of the individual alone. "How do I join?" would be the opposite of it, actually; the worldview of avowed incels seems to be more in line with "The society should change so that those stupid Stacies are not allowed to only shag with the Chads, but rather redistributed more fairly."

Hence why it sounds leftist to me, though I caveat this by saying I only just stumbled upon this interpretation because of @TheRedChamber . I haven't heard of anyone else putting it in this way so it's quite likely that this is too simplistic a view. (But then again, "all incels are right-wing misogynists" strikes me as even more of a crude and simplistic view, so...).

Right, it seems like this was taken way more seriously than I'd originally intended. Just to be absolutely clear, my original point was that if you say that those men who find dating hard are, inevitably, not decent people, you remove any need to feel sorry for them. Just like if you say that all unemployed people are lazy. I've been seeing this said a lot and, taken at face value, I find it pretty offensive. I suspect it comes from a desire to steer people away from the pick-up artist and incel communities which are indeed the arsehole paths, but it puts the cart before the horse. You can be dateless, lonely and not a bad person.

We need to be clear about the definition of an 'incel' (someone who would like to be having sex at least sometimes but isn't) and the 'incel movement' You can be an incel without belonging to the incel movement. The incel movement is essentially nilhisitic - they tend believe that if you are fundamentally unattractive to women there is not a lot you can do to change that individually - and regressive - they believe that they would have had more dating success back before the sexual revolution when people partnered off one-to-one at a much earlier age, and when women couldn't support themselves (easily) without a husband. It's also barefacedly misogynistic because they will flat out say that they hate all women.

I've got no numbers, but I suspect that the vast majority of men who have difficulty dating are not actually part of the incel movement. It seems pretty a pretty miserable life to live.

 

[Erozetta]

Right, it seems like this was taken way more seriously than I'd originally intended. Just to be absolutely clear, my original point was that if you say that those men who find dating hard are, inevitably, not decent people, you remove any need to feel sorry for them. Just like if you say that all unemployed people are lazy. I've been seeing this said a lot and, taken at face value, I find it pretty offensive. I suspect it comes from a desire to steer people away from the pick-up artist and incel communities which are indeed the arsehole paths, but it puts the cart before the horse. You can be dateless, lonely and not a bad person.

We need to be clear about the definition of an 'incel' (someone who would like to be having sex at least sometimes but isn't) and the 'incel movement' You can be an incel without belonging to the incel movement. The incel movement is essentially nilhisitic - they tend believe that if you are fundamentally unattractive to women there is not a lot you can do to change that individually - and regressive - they believe that they would have had more dating success back before the sexual revolution when people partnered off one-to-one at a much earlier age, and when women couldn't support themselves (easily) without a husband. It's also barefacedly misogynistic because they will flat out say that they hate all women.

I've got no numbers, but I suspect that the vast majority of men who have difficulty dating are not actually part of the incel movement. It seems pretty a pretty miserable life to live.

Part of the incel movement isn't just about having a hard time finding women to date, it's having a hard time finding women they think are attractive enough to date.

They self-limit their dating pool to make it harder on themselves because a good portion of them want to be seen as enviable by other men and that requires (in their eyes) dating/fucking an 8 (10s don't exist. 8s barely exist and for most of these guys quickly drop to 5s at best if they speak.) when they might only be a 2. (God, how I hate the number scale that gets imposed on both men and women.)

It's one thing to have specific preferences in appearance set by what you get aroused by. It's another to have your preferences set by what you think successful and attractive men desire, despite what actually arouses and/or interests you.

The incel movement isn't large. It's not a majority of men. It's a small subset of men who struggle to date. The problem with it is that the majority of men who fall into the movement have violent tendencies and exist on a hair trigger of thinking anything that goes wrong is the fault of society trying to erase their (again, self-imposed) struggle rather than them being scummy assholes who treat people like shit because they think that's what men are supposed to do in order to succeed.

 

[TheRedChamber]

They self-limit their dating pool to make it harder on themselves because a good portion of them want to be seen as enviable by other men and that requires (in their eyes) dating/fucking an 8 (10s don't exist. 8s barely exist and for most of these guys quickly drop to 5s at best if they speak.) when they might only be a 2. (God, how I hate the number scale that gets imposed on both men and women.)

It's hardly a unified movement with a clear manifest, but I'm interested in how or where you've got this impression? What I've seen largely suggests the majority of them would be happy with (almost) any kind of intimate relationship.

 

[EmilyMiller]

One of the sadest things about the state of the country (and indeed much of the world) in 2025 is how basic decency toward other people has become politically weaponized. People with different political views used to agree on at least some things in this area. Decency toward others should not be a political issue.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

One of the sadest things about the state of the country (and indeed much of the world) in 2025 is how basic decency toward other people has become politically weaponized. People with different political views used to agree on at least some things in this area. Decency toward others should not be a political issue.

Yet the left will cancel people for saying exactly that.
Gina Carano posted a meme about the dangers of demonizing people you disagree with and true to form the tolerant left came after her.

 

[Jorunn]

As writers of erotic fiction, you would think we would be masters of ‘boy meets girl’ situations. If a guy wants to have sex but isn’t, he has to overcome fear of rejection, be confident, make himself interesting, and go where women are. A lot of that is up to him.

Women start conversations with each other by saying, “I like your hair (etc)”. A guy has to be willing to approach a woman and give her a compliment. If she is interested, she’ll respond.

And he needs to talk about things he did, not what he saw on social media. “I went sailing near XYZ island this morning and had Chinese food for lunch.” Conversation can then grow about sailing, the particular island, or Chinese food. No politics or left or right.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Part of the incel movement isn't just about having a hard time finding women to date, it's having a hard time finding women they think are attractive enough to date.

They self-limit their dating pool to make it harder on themselves because a good portion of them want to be seen as enviable by other men and that requires (in their eyes) dating/fucking an 8 (10s don't exist. 8s barely exist and for most of these guys quickly drop to 5s at best if they speak.) when they might only be a 2. (God, how I hate the number scale that gets imposed on both men and women.)

It's one thing to have specific preferences in appearance set by what you get aroused by. It's another to have your preferences set by what you think successful and attractive men desire, despite what actually arouses and/or interests you.

The incel movement isn't large. It's not a majority of men. It's a small subset of men who struggle to date. The problem with it is that the majority of men who fall into the movement have violent tendencies and exist on a hair trigger of thinking anything that goes wrong is the fault of society trying to erase their (again, self-imposed) struggle rather than them being scummy assholes who treat people like shit because they think that's what men are supposed to do in order to succeed.

I agree that the incel movement is a small subset, but where's the proof of this hair trigger violence hypothesis?
We've had political violence/mass shootings carried out by people with various causes and manifestos, I don't see any reason to believe that the incel community is over represented.
The reality is ANY movement is going to have it's share of crazies.

 

[Erozetta]

It's hardly a unified movement with a clear manifest, but I'm interested in how or where you've got this impression? What I've seen largely suggests the majority of them would be happy with (almost) any kind of intimate relationship.

Knowing more than a handful of guys who are a part of the movement. Not knowing all of them by choice mind you, but by blood relation. There's seriously so many reasons I'm very low contact with my family. But there are also more than a few former friends who fit this mold. They are former friends for a reason and it started with a comment that "rape isn't a real thing. It's just regretting not fighting hard enough." With the basic outcome of the argument being if you're still alive, you consented and I wish like fuck I were being hyperbolic. Oh, and I should note that they were sure to put in the disclaimer of "Except the you, we believe you because we know you." I should also note that they were not like this when I first met them back in 2002/2003. It ramped up to this around 2016 and I cut ties immediately.

In my family, it started with a cousin and slowly enveloped most of the men around him. He was not some hideous man beast, he was charismatic but a grade A raging asshole.

"Incel" as a movement no longer only applies only to men who are involuntary celibate (hell, the whole thing was started by a woman, it has morphed into extreme toxicity along the way.), but has extended to men who are angry that they are not fucking the quality of woman they desire. And realistically, the women they desire are women they see as easily abused and manipulated. (Read: young.)

Many of these guys I know/knew are/were with women who bend over backwards to appease their anger toward women, but they still want relationships with "better" looking women and are pissed off that they have to "work hard" for what they deem a lesser valued relationship. And the women in these relationships often work 2 or more jobs to support their family while the guy will only work up to 40 hours in a week because they don't see their actual existing family as worth more effort than that. They also refuse to marry their partner so that the woman can get on welfare when she has their kid. They want to be able to make a clean break from the relationship "when" someone higher value comes along.


From my dealings with these guys the checklist of high value women is:

Low body count
Might be above the age of consent in some states
Submissive
Christian
Fertile
Model looks
Regularly exercises and barely eats, sometimes this is monitored by the guy.
Will vote how he tells her to.
Will not voice an opinion.
Will not receive sexual pleasure unless it brings him pleasure to give it.
Does not question clearly abusive behavior.
Does not have a support system away from him.
Does not have friends.
Exists as a bangmaid.

Now, the same is true of many of the men who are without relationships in the incel movement (and it is a movement that encourages and has already enacted large scale violence upon women.)

Not all incels fit this description. There are some who just want a relationship, but they are quickly becoming the minority within the group in my experience with them. About two dozen or so of my group of 40-ish guys have gone from "I just want a caring relationship" to "I want a beautiful sex slave who will have my kids, keep house, and not complain about any of my failures as a human being and only that will alleviate my loneliness," In a matter of a few years. About a dozen more are still in the "I just want a relationship, Y'all are fucked" camp. The rest... I'm fucking too afraid of to ask questions. I know they collect guns. I know they think I'm emasculating my husband by earning more money than him. I know they've *already* threatened to set me straight when I come home. (I have not been back to visit my family in over 10 years.) And I know that everyone knows they are dangerous but look the other way because "They haven't hurt anyone yet."


It's a grossly small sample size, but it's the trend I've witnessed escalating over the last ten years or so.

I'm not saying it's universal, but I am saying that the bad actors seem to be gaining ground at a much faster rate than the ones who just want a relationship.

 

[big_cane_sugar]

Incels aren't really angry they can't get women: they are angry they can't get women that will impress other men.

That's astonishing and sad. I'd never thought of that.

Wow. I don't know what do with this insight....

 

[THBGato]

One of the sadest things about the state of the country (and indeed much of the world) in 2025 is how basic decency toward other people has become politically weaponized. People with different political views used to agree on at least some things in this area. Decency toward others should not be a political issue.

Yet the left will cancel people for saying exactly that.
Gina Carano posted a meme about the dangers of demonizing people you disagree with and true to form the tolerant left came after her.

I don't think Emily said anything about left or right, and I don't think many would disagree with either of you. She's not blaming either side.

Aside: shouldn't this be on the Politics forum? What does any of this have to do with Authors?