"straight", as compared to faggots, queers, and the rest of us

[liqueur]

This is about words. I'm posting it here instead of over in one of the main forums because this is where I've seen the most chatter (and nagging) about the word “straight.”

We all know that traditionally, “straight” (an identity) meant “heterosexual”, and was used as a distinction from from “gay” or “queer” (both identities). Things got complicated when men who identified as “straight” started openly talking about sucking cock or being ass-fucked (note: both of these are activities, not identities.)

So the self-identified purists started to get shirty— “you can't call yourself straight if you do homosexual things!" “You're not being honest!" Etcetera.

These assertions could be challenged in several ways, but the most important is that the “purists” are confusing identity with activity. Nobody can challenge another person's identity; that's equivalent to you telling me what I feel. Your identity is how you perceive yourself, not how anyone else does. But I think this is an age-old problem: I think people have always thought “You are what you do.” In fact, I think “identity” is a fairly new concept, an important step in our cultural evolution.

I think “straight” men sucking cock is an age-old occurrence, as well. The only thing that's changed is the freedom to talk about it. And I'm not here to philosophize, I'm here to propose a solution to the purists’ problem (because in the end, it is their problem, not ours):

What I know is this: language is not rigid and static. Language is a living breathing thing that is constantly growing and evolving. This is not “my opinion”, this is reality. Ask any lexicographer; they'll tell you the same thing. if it weren't true, we'd still be using Samuel Johnson's 1755 Dictionary of the English Language.
What I believe is this: we are watching the term “straight” (which of course is very new in this usage anyway) be redefined before our very eyes. It no longer means “engaging in exclusively heterosexual activities” (if indeed it ever did). It now means “heteronormative in appearance, and hetero-romantic”— and has no bearing on any specific activities.

If we could accept this new definition, we could move on from some endless and circular discussions.

Your thoughts?

 

[BillyWalrus]

I am heteronormative in appearance and definitely hetero-romantic but straight? Nope.

I have come to realize that my sexual identity might be described as "feminine". With my trans girlfriend I am only interested in submitting to her sexually and allowing her the use of my holes for insemination. I just want to be fucked.

She, on the other hand, is only interested in the male role sexually even though she is super feminine in appearance and only romantically attracted to men. Sexually, she just wants to fuck.

Maybe we are a couple of unique outliers?

 

[liqueur]

No, I don't think you are. I think you're both hot as fuck. As for labels, if you were me (either of you) I'd probably just say I was queer, and have done with it.

 

[liqueur]

Hypothetical: A married guy who has sex with his wife 99% of the time and occasionally sucks cock 1% of the time would be 99% straight. LOL.

I don't know how else to contribute to this discussion liqueur. I have seen the other threads you are referring to. It can be confusing, but I don't think the definitions will ever be agreed upon.

Thanks for the dictionary reference. The interesting part of those definitions is the repeated phrase ”sexual or romantic” attraction. But where the sexual attraction goes one way, and the romantic attraction the other, the definition breaks down. Which is what we're dealing with now.

But back to lexicographers: they will tell you that word definitions are determined by people, and the way they use those words, not vice versa— which is why dictionaries are constantly being updated. I think we're seeing such a shift in usage right now.

Since your typical lexicographer is probably not a student of sexuality as well, it's going to be a while before dictionaries reflect the shift. But we don't need to wait for them!

 

[BillyWalrus]

No, I don't think you are. I think you're both hot as fuck. As for labels, if you were me (either of you) I'd probably just say I was queer, and have done with it.

Thanks, I think. Yeah, we are a couple of queers. Although if you saw us on the street, we look like any other het couple.

 

[stickygirl]

This word identity is problematic because people assume it is a coat you wear - I am queer and here is my queer identity coat. Or, as cynics love to deride 'I'm identifying as a dog today...' The problem is that what we think we are, is largely irrelevant. We cannot exist in a vacuum and our identity is how we are perceived ( and then treated by ) other people in our society.

People will commit murder to protect their public identity; newspaper hacks will trail suspected gay men to public toilets to out them. To counter this some queer people have outed themselves in an attempt to take the sting out of the label for themselves and other queer people. That's a noble thing to do, right up until you get a seismic shift in politics and 'Voila! Arrest the gays, throw them out of office, annul their marriages...'

 

[liqueur]

Thanks, I think. Yeah, we are a couple of queers. Although if you saw us on the street, we look like any other het couple.

Likewise, I doubt very much of any of my neighbors see me as anything but straight. People see what they want to see.

 

[Daddydude55]

So for me personally I feel and more often claim to very straight , now if your a hot ass female or look to be and have a cock well still not gay , but my cock is a totally attention and worship whore and also I do get off on and enjoy using and degrading little sissy faggot fem and bitch bois and hobbies alone or with the wife of gf. So I could be said im bi or bi top. But im not attracted to masculinity in any way amd would never want to cuddle or make out with a guy or "suck a dick"

 

[liqueur]

The problem is that what we think we are, is largely irrelevant. We cannot exist in a vacuum and our identity is how we are perceived ( and then treated by ) other people in our society.

I was really, really hoping you might jump in here. I love your mind.

I'm still pondering what you've said here. There's an awful lot to unpack in those two sentences . I'm going to give it more thought, rather than responding off the cuff.

 

[Daddydude55]

This word identity is problematic because people assume it is a coat you wear - I am queer and here is my queer identity coat. Or, as cynics love to deride 'I'm identifying as a dog today...' The problem is that what we think we are, is largely irrelevant. We cannot exist in a vacuum and our identity is how we are perceived ( and then treated by ) other people in our society.

People will commit murder to protect their public identity; newspaper hacks will trail suspected gay men to public toilets to out them. To counter this some queer people have outed themselves in an attempt to take the sting out of the label for themselves and other queer people. That's a noble thing to do, right up until you get a seismic shift in politics and 'Voila! Arrest the gays, throw them out of office, annul their marriages...'

Very well said and thought

 

[liqueur]

So for me personally I feel and more often claim to very straight , now if your a hot ass female or look to be and have a cock well still not gay , but my cock is a totally attention and worship whore and also I do get off on and enjoy using and degrading little sissy faggot fem and bitch bois and hobbies alone or with the wife of gf. So I could be said im bi or bi top. But im not attracted to masculinity in any way amd would never want to cuddle or make out with a guy or "suck a dick"

(You sound like someone I'd like to suck...) But that aside: is straight your preferred label?

 

[Daddydude55]

You sound like some one id let worship and mayne suck and stroke my cock or suck and lick my nuts or eat my ass, good little boi

 

[Daddydude55]

(You sound like someone I'd like to suck...) But that aside: is straight your preferred label?

And yes it is but I'm not too concerned with labels

 

[liqueur]

You sound like some one id let worship and mayne suck and stroke my cock or suck and lick my nuts or eat my ass, good little boi

Hmmm... I don't want to derail the thread. PM?

 

[Wag_that_tail86]

There are few absolutes in nature, some people exist (or believe they exist) at one end of the sexuality spectrum or the other...but most are probably somewhere in between...if queer is the right label for me and others, fine...but it doesn't really describe the variety or complexity of our behavior or desires.

 

[liqueur]

if queer is the right label for me and others, fine...but it doesn't really describe the variety or complexity of our behavior or desires

There are ultra-specific labels for “every” shade of that complexity, for the folks that love labels. (“every” in quotes because, no, not really— not only is every individual unique, but for many of us, or variety can change as often as the weather does). But: that's why I like the term “queer”— in its modern usage, it's an umbrella term for everyone who is not cis-het. Because for me, ultra-specific is not a definition, it's a set of limits.

 

[BillyWalrus]

There are ultra-specific labels for “every” shade of that complexity, for the folks that love labels. (“every” in quotes because, no, not really— not only is every individual unique, but for many of us, or variety can change as often as the weather does). But: that's why I like the term “queer”— in its modern usage, it's an umbrella term for everyone who is not cis-het. Because for me, ultra-specific is not a definition, it's a set of limits.

Yeah, queer is a good word that encompasses a lot of sexual behavior that is not heteronormative.

 

[liqueur]

Yeah, queer is a good word that encompasses a lot of sexual behavior that is not heteronormative.

Yes, exactly

 

[RobLivesInTexas]

I've run into this on another thread here that discusses the topic of "being a cocksucker". I once pointed out that some use that as an identity, but I use that as an activity, which is why I use cock sucker instead of cocksucker. It's something I do, not something I am. Anyway, I get piled on for a while on that thread and in some PMs. I agree that identity is how we perceive ourselves, but there is the reality of living in a world where we have to interact with how others perceive us. Meanwhile, I just go on sucking and fucking with other men and disregard labels. When necessary, I label myself as bisexual. I love to eat and fuck pussy, and I love a nice pair of tits, but I so rarely get any of that, so the vast majority of my sexual interactions are with other men.

On a bit of a tangent, some of the slang words for homosexual men (sissy, faggot, boi, etc.) are difficult for me. It's not the words themselves, but rather the memories of bullying and harassment that they bring to mind. That may contribute to the issues some men have about labeling their sexuality as anything other that "straight".

 

[BillyWalrus]

On a bit of a tangent, some of the slang words for homosexual men (sissy, faggot, boi, etc.) are difficult for me. It's not the words themselves, but rather the memories of bullying and harassment that they bring to mind. That may contribute to the issues some men have about labeling their sexuality as anything other that "straight".

Even if you haven't been the victim yourself, it's almost impossible not to remember this kind of verbal bullying among boys and men. You start to wonder, is sexual activity between men so appealing that there has to be a continuous campaign to label it as deviant so that guys are stopped from indulging in it? Are the guys doing the bullying worried that they too might suck a dick one day? Got to keep everybody in line!

 

[RobLivesInTexas]

Even if you haven't been the victim yourself, it's almost impossible not to remember this kind of verbal bullying among boys and men. You start to wonder, is sexual activity between men so appealing that there has to be a continuous campaign to label it as deviant so that guys are stopped from indulging in it? Are the guys doing the bullying worried that they too might suck a dick one day? Got to keep everybody in line!

You make a good point. I think that, in many cases at least, that is exactly the motivation. Also, I find it interesting that if you browse through the "Gay Male" story category on Literotica, you'll find a number of stories dealing with a bully who eventually gets involved in man to man sex. Even though it's fiction, I wonder if real experiences play into the authors' story lines.

 

[whiteasianlvr]

I've enjoyed this thread. Perhaps men "of a certain age" who grew up in the 70s or in more conservative places where being known as "gay" was a cross too heavy to bear, understand how being labelled as "gay" or "effeminate" was a curse they couldn't publicly bear. So, to survive, they sublimated their sexual identity in order to "fit it" and "get by." Of course this leads to internal conflicts, and sadly, for some mental health challenges. But I think that's why many of us may have rejected certain labels not wanting our lives to be destroyed by our inner desires. What a complex world we live in. I hope a few understand what I'm trying to say!

 

[Wag_that_tail86]

I've enjoyed this thread. Perhaps men "of a certain age" who grew up in the 70s or in more conservative places where being known as "gay" was a cross too heavy to bear, understand how being labelled as "gay" or "effeminate" was a curse they couldn't publicly bear. So, to survive, they sublimated their sexual identity in order to "fit it" and "get by." Of course this leads to internal conflicts, and sadly, for some mental health challenges. But I think that's why many of us may have rejected certain labels not wanting our lives to be destroyed by our inner desires. What a complex world we live in. I hope a few understand what I'm trying to say!

That's why I respect those gay, lesbian, trans and others (here I am using labels), who live their lives openly on their terms. They have had to deal with things that I never did because I could pass for straight. Yes, we use labels because sometimes it easier or that's what society expects, but for me, I hope that I can learn to simply accept what is real, and what I am, and not be limited or constrained by labels or expectations.

 

[liqueur]

Even if you haven't been the victim yourself, it's almost impossible not to remember this kind of verbal bullying among boys and men. You start to wonder, is sexual activity between men so appealing that there has to be a continuous campaign to label it as deviant so that guys are stopped from indulging in it? Are the guys doing the bullying worried that they too might suck a dick one day? Got to keep everybody in line!

Exactly this!

 

[liqueur]

I've enjoyed this thread. Perhaps men "of a certain age" who grew up in the 70s or in more conservative places where being known as "gay" was a cross too heavy to bear, understand how being labelled as "gay" or "effeminate" was a curse they couldn't publicly bear. So, to survive, they sublimated their sexual identity

Yes. Take that idea, and imagine coming of age in the 60s, in rural farm country. It took me a decade to start being honest with myself about my inclinations, and more than another decade to feel safe enough to act on those feelings.