The True Cost of California's Minimum Wage Hikes

[Ishmael]

Are you saying something in the line of:

Some people operate from the premise that this and that government are either corrupt or their political platforms are misguided. And that if only they would be replaced by 'the right' government, things might improve.
-- Which is pure utopia, because psychopaths or radical ideologues will always be attracted to places where power is concentrated in the hands of a few, and will manage to subvert any doctrine.

So better look for ways to put checks and balances in place for governments.

No. I'm saying that the goal of ALL governments is to control you and your choices. They do this under the premise of "protecting you" from making 'bad' choices.

Taken to the end game you will have no choices at all. Government isn't about helping you, it's about controlling you. Read the posts from the left fringe just here on Lit. every proposal they endorse is in the interest of 'helping' you while restricting your freedom of choice/action. And it all seems to be perfectly sensible....until they come after you. And the very people you were rooting to restrict are the very people that are going to back restricting you.

And lest you get the idea that I'm an Anarchist, I'm not. Anarchists serve a purpose but once their number reaches a certain, and low, threshold their numbers should be culled.

Ishmael

 

[hashtag46]

No. I'm saying that the goal of ALL governments is to control you and your choices. They do this under the premise of "protecting you" from making 'bad' choices.

Taken to the end game you will have no choices at all. Government isn't about helping you, it's about controlling you. Read the posts from the left fringe just here on Lit. every proposal they endorse is in the interest of 'helping' you while restricting your freedom of choice/action. And it all seems to be perfectly sensible....until they come after you. And the very people you were rooting to restrict are the very people that are going to back restricting you.

And lest you get the idea that I'm an Anarchist, I'm not. Anarchists serve a purpose but once their number reaches a certain, and low, threshold their numbers should be culled.

Ishmael

Yes, that was what I partly what understood from your previous post too. But you clarified it further.
That makes complete sense and I agree.

My question now might sound a bit…
For me the caveat is : how can we avoid power being transferred from governments to other groups like corporations or so on?

 

[BotanyBoy]

No, that wasn't my main goal here.

So then you're all for fair taxes based upon justified needs and not fucking rich people just because they are rich then right?

 

[BotanyBoy]

For me the caveat is : how can we avoid power being transferred from governments to other groups like corporations or so on?

What power do corporations have?

They can't force you to do anything....they can't take your wealth/property.....they can't lock you up or have you put to death.

Nobody is forced to shop at Wal Mart and eat McDiddles.

 

[Emerson40]

 

[hashtag46]

So then you're all for fair taxes based upon justified needs and not fucking rich people just because they are rich then right?

As a layperson, I would root for a thread that would sound something in the line of:
"Please outline, from A to Z your idea of the best economic model".
Not exactly that, but you catch my drift: a thread that zooms out.

Because, as interesting as I find them to be, most threads zoom in and address parts of the whole.
And by discussing the merits of their pov, people sometimes disregard the fact that their measure has unintended negative consequences in other areas.

 

[hashtag46]

Now I'll leave it because I managed to sidetrack the thread a bit too much.

 

[BotanyBoy]

As a layperson, I would root for a thread that would sound something in the line of:
"Please outline, from A to Z your idea of the best economic model".
Not exactly that, but you catch my drift: a thread that zooms out.

Because, as interesting as I find them to be, most threads zoom in and address parts of the whole.
And by discussing the merits of their pov, people sometimes disregard the fact that their measure has unintended negative consequences in other areas.

Funny...you didn't have a problem with it earlier in the thread.

zoomed allllllllll in.

Your ideology of meritocracy is flawed.

A company shouldn't be allowed to make billions of dollars in profit every year

Then you totally failed to defend it with anything but "FUCK YOU...RICK PEOPLE SUCK CUZ I HAVE LESS THAN THEY DO!!! #HATER!!"




Sooooooo you got nothing but a socialist circle jerk pov built around the emotional appeal of "fuck the 1%" but is otherwise totally lacking in substance as you suddenly abandon that position and fail to come up with an argument of any kind??

Mmmmhmm..... Hows that for zooming out eh???

 

[BotanyBoy]

Now I'll leave it because I managed to sidetrack the thread a bit too much.

Sidetrack...LOL whatever you want to tell yourself hashy.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Why should I be jealous?
It's just an online discussions, and I'm in no way impacted by these things. And I'm not referring to multi- millionaires, just to billionaires.


I just challenge the moral and ethical values of a society that allows some to make billions of dollars in profit while their workers can barely afford a decent standard of living. And the fact that some of those are allowed to make their profits by hollowing countries' economy.

Since the neoliberal - globalist - corporatist ideology took roots in the 70's, we've become a global society that elevated speculators and money lenders to the rank of nobility.
Instead of the people who trully make contributions to civilisations like innovations and so on.

Just a trivia: A few hundred years ago, speculators were hanged.

Similarly we challenge the moral and ethical values of a government populated by people not educated in who deem themselves worthy to interfere in the economic activity of any citizen or business. It is their interferences which exacerbate the income inequality. For countless decades now, strong, vibrant and powerful central governments have assured us that they are going to end poverty with high taxation and a strong secure social safety net and to date their success is marginal at best.

A lot of people think that the problem is that government has not been allowed to do enough while at the same time pointing out that the people who have taken advantage of government have too much.If government confiscated the wealth of your eight people to day, one year from now, government would be just as broke, the people at the bottom would be just as poor and there would be a brand new set of the top eight.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

As a layperson, I would root for a thread that would sound something in the line of:
"Please outline, from A to Z your idea of the best economic model".
Not exactly that, but you catch my drift: a thread that zooms out.

Because, as interesting as I find them to be, most threads zoom in and address parts of the whole.
And by discussing the merits of their pov, people sometimes disregard the fact that their measure has unintended negative consequences in other areas.

A government that allows people to exchange goods and service and pays attention to little other than defense and contract enforcement. A small tax at the point of sale that supports this limited government and the elimination of this nonsensical idea that we should tax income and wealth because that crushes the middle class and those at the top just purchase government indulgences and collect taxes from their customers so that the general population is kept totally in the dark as to the true rate of taxation that they pay.

 

[RobDownSouth]

A government that allows people to exchange goods and service and pays attention to little other than defense and contract enforcement. A small tax at the point of sale that supports this limited government and the elimination of this nonsensical idea that we should tax income and wealth because that crushes the middle class and those at the top just purchase government indulgences and collect taxes from their customers so that the general population is kept totally in the dark as to the true rate of taxation that they pay.

Holy run-on sentences, Batman!

 

[Adre]

Wages reminds me of spending, which reminds me that overall consumer spending this quarter was the lowest in eight years! Heckuva job, Trumpie!

GDP at .7% per annum. Wowza!

 

[Christobal]

Holy run-on sentences, Batman!

That is just funny. You now may now go back being outraged.

Edited to add
Whoever wants to be outraged

 

[Rightguide]

My only -rhetorical- question is:

In what Universe does any of you find it ethical that a sweatshop worker in China works for 1$ a day (and if things go this way, americans will find themselves in similar situations) while their employer makes a billion dollars a year?

It's not up to Americans to worry about the plight of Chinese worker's daily earnings vis a vis our own. Worry instead about the totalitarian system employed to keep them down, and worry again about its sympathizers worldwide and how they might be working to impose similar oppressions against our free enterprise system.

 

[Saint Peter]

Worry instead about...

Not my problem.

 

[HisArpy]

No, that wasn't my main goal here.

I was just driven by some articles and books that I read recently, by Mark Blyth and John Ralston Saul. They both put down the precarious economic situation that most countries find themselves in nowadays, to the neoliberal - globalist - corporatist - technocratic model that arose in the 70's.

To someone like me, what I read made a lot of sense.
But I'm not going to hang on with a vengeance to those ideas, and I'd be more than willing to change my current views, provided that you come up with common sense counterarguments.



And this isn't just about "ME".
I'm just representative of many of the laypeople out there who have limitted knowledge in economics and whatever. The rationale that I just presented is common to a large chunk of those who voted for Brexit, Trump or will vote for nationalistic parties in Europe.
We might be more or less misinformed, but we represent a large part of the electorate so your arguments should be tailored to us too.

You do realize that those authors (and all others) expect a royalty for you buying their book don't you? If that's the case, should their royalties be capped according to the system they espoused?

I mean, in essence they're arguing that they should give you their product for free (which defeats the point that they actually want you to BUY it) or at a reduced cost. Isn't that sort of stupid? Yet you bought into it...

The solution to your point about limited economics knowledge isn't to steal from me to satisfy you and everyone else. It's to teach everyone else basic economics so that they understand the subject. The "rest of the electorate" argument is justifying the mob mentality over that theft.

There is a book, The Richest Man in Babylon by George Samuel Clason. It's a collection of fictional stories which will give anyone a basic understanding of what it takes to become "rich". Trust me, it's not about how to get a better credit rating or using "other peoples' money". No, it doesn't have answers or a strategy or a get rich quick scheme either. It's about showing you how to think about your situation in life and how to change it no matter how poor or disadvantaged you think you are.

In addition to that book I propose to you 1 more "rule". The 1st rule of money:

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE not even your mother, will do ANYTHING for you when it comes to money without considering what they get out of the deal FIRST.

My final contribution is a couple of rhetorical questions...You do understand that you only get out of life what you put into it, don't you? Don't you realize that that starts and ends with you?

 

[Rightguide]

Not my problem.

Not hard to understand seeing you're a mere gatekeeper.

 

[Saint Peter]

Not hard to understand seeing you're a mere gatekeeper.

I am a mere gatekeeper until the bell tolls and you desire to pass thru the gate.

 

[Rightguide]

I am a mere gatekeeper until the bell tolls and you desire to pass thru the gate.

You'll let me through or I'll squeal to the Man and tell him you've been perving on Lit.

 

[Disgustipated]

You'll let me through or I'll squeal to the Man and tell him you've been perving on Lit.

We know, vettebirther. We know.

 

[hashtag46]

Similarly we challenge the moral and ethical values of a government populated by people not educated in who deem themselves worthy to interfere in the economic activity of any citizen or business. It is their interferences which exacerbate the income inequality.

1. For countless decades now, strong, vibrant and powerful central governments have assured us that they are going to end poverty with high taxation and a strong secure social safety net and to date their success is marginal at best.

2.A lot of people think that the problem is that government has not been allowed to do enough while at the same time pointing out that the people who have taken advantage of government have too much.

If government confiscated the wealth of your eight people to day, one year from now, government would be just as broke, the people at the bottom would be just as poor and there would be a brand new set of the top eight.

You're a man of great wisdom, as usual.
but I'm also serious.

1.Indeed

2.I wouldn't have the skills to comment on the economic considerations that follow, but this is actually funny in a sense. Because we keep doing it without noticing the irony in it all.

 

[Miles]

How does it remember to breathe? Holy fuck!

 

[hashtag46]

You do realize that those authors (and all others) expect a royalty for you buying their book don't you? If that's the case, should their royalties be capped according to the system they espoused?

I mean, in essence they're arguing that they should give you their product for free (which defeats the point that they actually want you to BUY it) or at a reduced cost. Isn't that sort of stupid? Yet you bought into it...

The solution to your point about limited economics knowledge isn't to steal from me to satisfy you and everyone else. It's to teach everyone else basic economics so that they understand the subject. The "rest of the electorate" argument is justifying the mob mentality over that theft.

There is a book, The Richest Man in Babylon by George Samuel Clason. It's a collection of fictional stories which will give anyone a basic understanding of what it takes to become "rich". Trust me, it's not about how to get a better credit rating or using "other peoples' money". No, it doesn't have answers or a strategy or a get rich quick scheme either. It's about showing you how to think about your situation in life and how to change it no matter how poor or disadvantaged you think you are.

In addition to that book I propose to you 1 more "rule". The 1st rule of money:

NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE not even your mother, will do ANYTHING for you when it comes to money without considering what they get out of the deal FIRST.

My final contribution is a couple of rhetorical questions...You do understand that you only get out of life what you put into it, don't you? Don't you realize that that starts and ends with you?

I'm not going to challenge the situation about the 0.1% any more.
I had enough bashing in this thread to learn my lesson , and you're right. In order to do so, maybe I should take my nose out of certain theoretical books and learn some real life economics.

But my rhetoric will change to: does anyone have suggestions -as part of these hypothetical online debates-- to end this state of affairs where a large chunk of people are getting increasingly impoverished in Europe (and US too, as I understand).

It's not up to Americans to worry about the plight of Chinese worker's daily earnings vis a vis our own. Worry instead about the totalitarian system employed to keep them down, and worry again about its sympathizers worldwide and how they might be working to impose similar oppressions against our free enterprise system.

True too.
*Waiting for the usual bottomfeeding trolling from our left wing MENSA members Luk, Rob (via their attack alts) and 86*

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You're a man of great wisdom, as usual.
but I'm also serious.

1.Indeed

2.I wouldn't have the skills to comment on the economic considerations that follow, but this is actually funny in a sense. Because we keep doing it without noticing the irony in it all.

It doesn't take a special skill as much as it requires a thorough understanding of basic human nature. Some people are driven to do more others try to get by with doing less...