the marks of a slave

[eastern sun]

An interesting challenge has arisen in the last year. I am active outside our home - building a new not-for-profit arts organization and working in the community - at an unprecedented level since I formally became slave.

Everything that has made me a good slave - willingness to work long and hard hours, responsiveness to other people's needs, humility and commitment to the big picture regardless of personal satisfaction - has served me in my work.

But the work itself is significantly impacting my ability to be slave at home.

My husband is willing to give me this opportunity. He most definitely does not want to be the one who denies it to me. But he can't hide his disappointment as my time and energy is spent elsewhere.

I think most of us would agree - in a life that includes children and work, the needs of those children and the responsibilities at work take precedence over the needs of a Master. But I feel - and he agrees - that I am no longer a good slave.

To be a good slave would require me to balance this dream job of mine with efforts towards building his dream. And that's the challenge.

I'm so excited by the developments in my own life, I don't want to compromise or limit my activities. Yet everything I do outside of the home limits my ability to serve his dream.

Essentially, it means this slave is dancing to the beat of other masters.

If slave is a mindset and not simply a set of behaviors, how do I balance the needs of children, work and master? How do I keep from letting the needs of increasingly more "others" dictate my behavior?

 

[Ropebunny]

I've been reading through your thread for a while now. I really admire the honesty in your posts, and hope that maybe one day my life might resemble yours in some ways. Your life is facinating and never ceases to draw me into being you for a bit

Essentially, it means this slave is dancing to the beat of other masters.

If slave is a mindset and not simply a set of behaviors, how do I balance the needs of children, work and master? How do I keep from letting the needs of increasingly more "others" dictate my behavior?

I guess the best way to do it might be to rein back on looking at "others" as masters of you too and tell them, with some force if need be, that they ask for more than you are able/want to give.
Except children, that's a whole 'nother ballgame... That doesn't mean stopping what you're doing, but maybe setting a limit of time that you're going to spend on your own endeavors each week?

If slave is a mindset, it seems to me that it most certainly is in relation to your husband and not the wider world and their expectations. It's an easy place to fall into, especially if you're somewhat reserved like myself but I find it hard to maintain and not nearly as rewarding as submitting to just one person.

 

[Netzach]

When I expect efforts made in a direction, I find I have to specify what I want. My errors tend to be in making people not simply obey but strategize their own obedience completely.

If you're being told to do some concrete thing, just do it. Start with the smallest stuff. The smallest stuff tends to make me think they're paying attention and then I'm easily satisfied when it gets larger and harder and more give and take. It's amazing how far not making my own dinner, even if dinner is a PB&J - will actually go.

Also: is this cash needed, or is this just about your own glory? Because if the cash is needed, then you're serving needs versus wants. Not as much fun, but adults will cope. I'd LIKE to have the level of undivided servitude I've been enjoying all year, but I'm going to have to get used to different. The cash will take the sting out of that.

 

[Keroin]

An interesting challenge has arisen in the last year. I am active outside our home - building a new not-for-profit arts organization and working in the community - at an unprecedented level since I formally became slave.

Though not a slave, I understand this completely. In the past year, I have taken on two large projects - one my own, one a volunteer/leadership position. It means that L comes last a lot. Add to that the fact that he has done the lion's share of keeping us afloat financially, and that makes for some fun relationship tension and guilt (on my part) at times.

Same deal, he wants this for me and wouldn't dream of getting in the way. Still, I sometimes feel like poo about it all. I don't think you need an M/s dynamic to feel you are not giving enough to your partner.

What keeps me from sinking into self-loathing, or giving up any of the stuff I love, is that I've lived long enough to see the cyclical nature of things. The time will come around again when he's in the spotlight and I'm the one on the sidelines helping out and cheering him on.

And you just never know how what you're doing today might benefit him down the road. Life is funny that way. L's gotten two paying jobs as a side-effect of my volunteer work, for example.

Also, I know, I know I'll be looked at as, well, I don't know what but probably just as someone who doesn't "get it" but...change is OK. We're human beings not programmable robots. There was probably a time in your life when you couldn't have imagined the relationship dynamic you have now. But here you are and it seems as if that change brought you happiness. Would you close yourself off to another change because it conflicts with the status quo, and maybe miss out on something equally or more satisfying?

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, I just see change as generally a good thing, even when it pinches like new shoes for awhile.

 

[eastern sun]

When I expect efforts made in a direction, I find I have to specify what I want. My errors tend to be in making people not simply obey but strategize their own obedience completely.

If you're being told to do some concrete thing, just do it. Start with the smallest stuff. The smallest stuff tends to make me think they're paying attention and then I'm easily satisfied when it gets larger and harder and more give and take. It's amazing how far not making my own dinner, even if dinner is a PB&J - will actually go.

Also: is this cash needed, or is this just about your own glory? Because if the cash is needed, then you're serving needs versus wants. Not as much fun, but adults will cope. I'd LIKE to have the level of undivided servitude I've been enjoying all year, but I'm going to have to get used to different. The cash will take the sting out of that.

Thanks, Netzach. You're right. I need the reminder to think small. I've been letting the details of my kids' lives and my work life push the details of his life and desires to the side.

And it's true. It is more effective when he's specific in his desires. It's more likely that I'll actually get it right the first time. But it sounds like you have also had the same desire he has - that I'll figure out how to give him what he wants without being told "how to," without micromanagement.

For exactly the same reasons that I love it when he surprises me, he loves it when I surprise him - in a good way. Who wants to have to dictate every behavior - just to get something that makes you feel good?

Regarding cash, we're trying to set up for our kids' college days and especially my retirement - so it's a cash needed . . . down the road.

At the moment, I'm not bringing in enough cash to balance the time and effort I'm giving out. Building a new enterprise, there's almost always a period of putting in more than you're getting out. So, in essence, it is more about my own glory (and he feels that pinch). I'm confident it will pay off within a year or two - but that doesn't help today.

I also have a full-time job with benefits offer that was supposed to materialize this fall, but has been delayed. Given our doubts about whether or not I could manage a full-time job - and my current house slave responsibilities - it has kind of been a blessing that it worked out this way. But I think it would be easier if I was bringing in more cash, because then I would be lifting a burden from his shoulders that he is growing weary of carrying.

 

[eastern sun]

Though not a slave, I understand this completely. In the past year, I have taken on two large projects - one my own, one a volunteer/leadership position. It means that L comes last a lot. Add to that the fact that he has done the lion's share of keeping us afloat financially, and that makes for some fun relationship tension and guilt (on my part) at times.

Same deal, he wants this for me and wouldn't dream of getting in the way. Still, I sometimes feel like poo about it all. I don't think you need an M/s dynamic to feel you are not giving enough to your partner.

What keeps me from sinking into self-loathing, or giving up any of the stuff I love, is that I've lived long enough to see the cyclical nature of things. The time will come around again when he's in the spotlight and I'm the one on the sidelines helping out and cheering him on.

And you just never know how what you're doing today might benefit him down the road. Life is funny that way. L's gotten two paying jobs as a side-effect of my volunteer work, for example.

Also, I know, I know I'll be looked at as, well, I don't know what but probably just as someone who doesn't "get it" but...change is OK. We're human beings not programmable robots. There was probably a time in your life when you couldn't have imagined the relationship dynamic you have now. But here you are and it seems as if that change brought you happiness. Would you close yourself off to another change because it conflicts with the status quo, and maybe miss out on something equally or more satisfying?

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass, I just see change as generally a good thing, even when it pinches like new shoes for awhile.

Change is inevitable. And I agree with you, Keroin, change is ok. I've experienced that cyclical nature of things too.

I also know that the issues we are dealing with are issues that face many long-term relationships. It's endlessly fascinating to me that the M/s dynamics have simply become our vehicle for managing what are essentially normal life events.

Part of the reason I'm bringing these musings here is because I really love my slave self. I love how I behave, how I feel, how I interact with the world when I am deeply committed to my slavery - and I can feel it slipping sometimes with the pressures of outside work. I become more aggressive, because I think I've got to get that job down "now!" I move faster - and I don't always notice the effect my behavior is having on other people. I also do silly things, like rack up parking tickets, because suddenly the rules don't apply to me any more. For me, it's surprising how quickly the abandonment of one set of rules translates into "I can do whatever I want, because what I want is super-important."

I don't want to lose the momentum I've developed in my work life, but I also don't want to lose this psycho-sexual state I've spent years learning to love. Slavery has given me a lot of emotional security and happiness.

 

[eastern sun]

I guess the best way to do it might be to rein back on looking at "others" as masters of you too and tell them, with some force if need be, that they ask for more than you are able/want to give. Except children, that's a whole 'nother ballgame... That doesn't mean stopping what you're doing, but maybe setting a limit of time that you're going to spend on your own endeavors each week?

If slave is a mindset, it seems to me that it most certainly is in relation to your husband and not the wider world and their expectations. It's an easy place to fall into, especially if you're somewhat reserved like myself but I find it hard to maintain and not nearly as rewarding as submitting to just one person.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm glad you've enjoyed reading the thread.

It's an interesting idea to set time limits. I have done that on occasion when it comes to other activities that occupy my time and energy (i.e. using the internet). I've certainly done it too with my work - except when deadlines are approaching. It's those deadlines that I find myself serving with every ounce of slavish dedication, often at the expense of my husband's interests and desires.

And though my husband has determined my work goals in the past - we used to run a small business together - he doesn't today. I freely determine my own goals. We have fielded the idea that he might step in and "help me set goals," but I know he would significantly change the nature of what I'm doing. And at the moment - having been given the freedom to determine my own goals - I have no desire to yield. On the other hand, in my most slavish moments, I want desperately for him to step in and just take over.

You have suggested that I limit my slave mindset to my interactions with my husband. But it is not in my nature to serve only one person; and I have a very, very difficult time setting limits with other people. Maybe I should . . . but I have become much happier embracing this quality in myself and enjoying it, rather than trying to push myself to do something that deeply threatens me.

Unfortunately, it means that I do find myself carried off by other people's agendas - collaborative ideas that are clearly in line with my intentions, but which take extra time and effort that could otherwise be devoted to my husband's interests and desires.

That's why I feel like I'm not a good slave. Because I'm enjoying the outcome of these interactions with other people - following their lead into new territory and interesting projects - in spite of the fact that it is causing me to fall short in meeting my husband's needs.

And I justify my actions by thinking that it is strengthening him even as it is strengthening me, causing him to clarify what he wants and take action.

 

[eastern sun]

I'm really curious how he'll respond when he reads this.

I'm acting like it's my own problem to solve.

 

[intothewoods]

I don't want to lose the momentum I've developed in my work life, but I also don't want to lose this psycho-sexual state I've spent years learning to love.

I can relate to this. I'm someone who (rightly or wrongly) heavily compartmentalizes different aspects of my life, and I feel like I need to be whisked away from real life to really let go and be in that particular sexual state. That definitely contributed to the end of my prior marriage, so I'm very aware of the need to keep sex a part of my normal life and not some other secret thing.
At the same time, right now I'm fully engaged creatively, and it's great, but it takes up a heck of a lot of energy (plus the kids!).

You almost need to schedule it, and maybe having to schedule time for service will reinforce that slave mindset? Maybe you need a ritual for when you slip into this mode?

Question -- when you were working less (or not at all?), did you feel like you could be more focused on him, in part, because you had some distance from the "real world"?

 

[Red Sonja]

I'm really curious how he'll respond when he reads this.

I'm acting like it's my own problem to solve.

Bingo. I'm a happily married sub, and it is a 24/7 thing with us, and has been for a while. When we began I was a sahm, then to law school, a new career, and now... an empty nest.

There's an ebb and a flow to life. The one thing I've learned is that I can count on my ddh to make the decisions. Once I involve him in the problem... it becomes very easy to overcome.

You will find a balance. The ritual idea, for what it's worth, does help a lot to change the mindset from the workaday world to the "I'm his" world. Something as simple as changing clothes worked for us, and helped me transition.

 

[eastern sun]

You almost need to schedule it, and maybe having to schedule time for service will reinforce that slave mindset? Maybe you need a ritual for when you slip into this mode?

Question -- when you were working less (or not at all?), did you feel like you could be more focused on him, in part, because you had some distance from the "real world"?

Though it does seem like it could work as a means for getting back on track, the two concepts of "scheduling time for service" and "slave" do not compute.

And, yes, I stopped working outside the home for a number of years after our kids were born and our parents died. I was a full-time slave. We still had kids in the house - which significantly altered our sexual activities; but at one point, I spent three years in a state of almost constant sexual arousal and readiness that had some very strange and interesting effects on my interactions with strangers and acquaintances. Both my husband and I loved that period of our lives. We only pulled away from it because our kids needed a different kind of environment (less sexually-charged) when they hit puberty.

I often wish I could be more sequestered from the "real world," in order to avoid the strange interactions that occur when my submission is at its most complete. But we have also always valued community action and engagement both as individuals and as partners. So it doesn't feel "right" to us to completely disengage from our community just for the sake of our sexuality.

 

[eastern sun]

Bingo. I'm a happily married sub, and it is a 24/7 thing with us, and has been for a while. When we began I was a sahm, then to law school, a new career, and now... an empty nest.

When we began, my husband stated explicitly that he doesn't like the rituals. He thinks they're too "theatrical." But it might be a topic to broach again in this context. (He hasn't read this conversation yet, but this forum has been one way I communicate with him.)

I'm curious, Sonja, how you experienced the D/s with young children and then teenagers in the house. I had a lot of authority with my younger children, but now - it is very common for all three of them to gang up on me. They do it with some respect, and a lot of love, so it hasn't been too hard to take.

But - as teenagers - those kids love putting me in my place!

 

[eastern sun]

Attention to detail counts.

Over the past few years, the quality of my hand jobs has seriously and frustratingly declined; I've thought it was because of the onset of arthritis, that he had grown too fixated on his own efforts - and I just wasn't getting it "right," that I was too bored, etc.

But this morning, I wake up to his request - as he takes my hand and places it on his cock. And I realize it's my left hand! We switched sides of the bed a few years back, and I've been using my left hand during these bleary early morning moments, because that's the one available when I lie next to him in bed!

I asked for permission to crawl over him and lay down on the other side - so I could free up my right hand - and Miraculously! the frustration of years of mediocre effort in the pre-dawn hours vanish.

I can sculpt with my right hand. I can whip cream with my right hand. What on earth kept me from realizing that moving back to the other side of the bed would make such a difference?

There really is this thing that sets in - (i.e. I'm supposed to be able to do anything that's asked of me as expertly as possible) - that blinds me to the simplest solutions.

 

[Red Sonja]

When we began, my husband stated explicitly that he doesn't like the rituals. He thinks they're too "theatrical." But it might be a topic to broach again in this context. (He hasn't read this conversation yet, but this forum has been one way I communicate with him.)

I'm curious, Sonja, how you experienced the D/s with young children and then teenagers in the house. I had a lot of authority with my younger children, but now - it is very common for all three of them to gang up on me. They do it with some respect, and a lot of love, so it hasn't been too hard to take.

But - as teenagers - those kids love putting me in my place!

Teenagers. They're all mutants, whether they are ninja turtles or not.

Seriously, though, we actually had more of an issue with ddh and our son. Both are clearly alphas, and if it came down to a contest both wanted to win. There were some really awful fights along the way. They wisely did step aside and decide often that whatever it was, it wasn't a hill they wanted to die on. If we did have issues where son overstepped his need to respect me, ddh handled it.

I suspect partially because we evolved into a sort of... ( and I'm a nerd, so please forgive this...) Star Trek chain of command. Dad was Picard and captain of the ship, I was Riker and his number one.

Our daughter, on the other hand, didn't have those issues at all. We addressed them more in the tween years, really, than in the teen years. She was harder at the young kid level to address. She's the sort to tease playfully and not mean it... Our son is the sort to just bluntly say what's on his mind.

 

[eastern sun]

Seriously, though, we actually had more of an issue with ddh and our son. Both are clearly alphas, and if it came down to a contest both wanted to win. There were some really awful fights along the way. They wisely did step aside and decide often that whatever it was, it wasn't a hill they wanted to die on. If we did have issues where son overstepped his need to respect me, ddh handled it.

Yes, I recognize that relationship between father and son. They used to compete for my time and attention.

It helped tremendously in our family when I removed myself completely from their relationship. For many years I was the "spokesperson" for the children, identifying their needs to my husband. There even was a time when my husband did not differentiate their needs from my needs. The kids and I were all part of the same gestalt.

Now, he has developed independent relationships with each of them that are really wonderful. And whereas my son still tries to draw me into his conflicts with his father - my son really seems to enjoy his father's authority, and it's much better for me to keep my distance.

 

[Red Sonja]

Now, he has developed independent relationships with each of them that are really wonderful. And whereas my son still tries to draw me into his conflicts with his father - my son really seems to enjoy his father's authority, and it's much better for me to keep my distance.

That's how it is here, too. Our son has moved out of the house and in with his gf, (which sets my teeth on edge-- just because they are both SO young) and that has been a great change too. Ddh no longer feels the need to control the boy because he is out of the house and living his own life, paying his own bills, etc.

Now the boy is apt to pick up the phone and call his Dad just to chat... and they get along great. It's funny in a way.

 

[intothewoods]

Though it does seem like it could work as a means for getting back on track, the two concepts of "scheduling time for service" and "slave" do not compute.

Careful, now he's going to make you do it!

And, yes, I stopped working outside the home for a number of years after our kids were born and our parents died. I was a full-time slave. We still had kids in the house - which significantly altered our sexual activities; but at one point, I spent three years in a state of almost constant sexual arousal and readiness that had some very strange and interesting effects on my interactions with strangers and acquaintances. Both my husband and I loved that period of our lives. We only pulled away from it because our kids needed a different kind of environment (less sexually-charged) when they hit puberty.

I often wish I could be more sequestered from the "real world," in order to avoid the strange interactions that occur when my submission is at its most complete. But we have also always valued community action and engagement both as individuals and as partners. So it doesn't feel "right" to us to completely disengage from our community just for the sake of our sexuality.

I don't think I could spend 3 years in an almost constant state of sexual arousal. Even one year.

 

[eastern sun]

He is asking me to contemplate the difference between service and obedience.

 

[ownedsubgal]

He is asking me to contemplate the difference between service and obedience.

perhaps he is thinking of service as more proactive (doing whatever is required, whether told or not), and obedience as more a response to direction. do you have any idea of which concept he values more?

for the one who owns me they are one and the same. through my service i am being obedient, and i am not expected or permitted to serve in very proactive ways. from day one the concept of unquestioned, unhesitating obedience was drilled in like a hammer. it took.

 

[eastern sun]

perhaps he is thinking of service as more proactive (doing whatever is required, whether told or not), and obedience as more a response to direction. do you have any idea of which concept he values more?

for the one who owns me they are one and the same. through my service i am being obedient, and i am not expected or permitted to serve in very proactive ways. from day one the concept of unquestioned, unhesitating obedience was drilled in like a hammer. it took.

Yes, he believes that I have been prioritizing proactive service over obedience - and failing to recognize that they are not equal in his eyes.

He feels it is self-serving on my part to equate proactive service with slavery. It allows me to feel like I'm "doing the right thing" while I am in essence asserting my own priorities.

Though he has not always demanded unquestioned, unhesitating obedience, he certainly values it - and made it clear this morning (after reading this forum) that he will not consider me his slave until I re-establish it in my behavior. Until that point, he will consider this all an interesting narrative I choose to embrace.

(That's not quite the same as a physical slap in the face . . . but it sure carries the same message.)

 

[ownedsubgal]

Yes, he believes that I have been prioritizing proactive service over obedience - and failing to recognize that they are not equal in his eyes.

He feels it is self-serving on my part to equate proactive service with slavery. It allows me to feel like I'm "doing the right thing" while I am in essence asserting my own priorities.

Though he has not always demanded unquestioned, unhesitating obedience, he certainly values it - and made it clear this morning (after reading this forum) that he will not consider me his slave until I re-establish it in my behavior. Until that point, he will consider this all an interesting narrative I choose to embrace.

(That's not quite the same as a physical slap in the face . . . but it sure carries the same message.)

yes it does. ouch indeed.

may i ask why proactive service is your inclination above direct obedience?

 

[eastern sun]

yes it does. ouch indeed.

may i ask why proactive service is your inclination above direct obedience?

Because it allows me to retain some control in the relationship, define my own priorities, and make things happen in "my own way."

Now, generally he thinks that is ok. He has benefited over the years by my ability to get things done that he didn't even want to pay attention to. So, in our M/s relationship, I have been allowed a significant degree of proactive decision-making.

The issue, of course, is what happens when he wants me to do something and it doesn't get done. There are a lot of reasons I don't get something done, ranging from legitimate scheduling problems to a very childish version of "I don't want to!" Lately, my failure to do what he asks of me sometimes stands in stark contrast to a success I have had in my work outside the house. It feels to him like I'm choosing my own priorities over his (and - in all honesty - to some degree I have been).

So, now I have a clear statement of his expectations. If I want to be his slave (which I do want very much), I have to prioritize obedience over service.

My fears kick in, thinking my newly formed work momentum will be derailed by the attention his priorities will require . . . but I need to trust him.

This is his way of enforcing my slavery, today. He has already begun to pull away . . . if I want him as my master, I am going to have to change my behavior.

 

[eastern sun]

Because it allows me to retain some control in the relationship, define my own priorities, and make things happen in "my own way."

When I wrote this, it sounded kind of funny and ironic in my head. But reading it today actually makes me feel ashamed of myself.

 

[eastern sun]

And so I enter the punishment phase (we've been here before).

Having fallen from grace, I am no longer even being asked to do anything - which significantly limits my opportunities to prove my willingness and ability to obey on an immediate feedback loop.

Instead, he keeps to himself and counts on the fact that I know what he wants from me, waiting for me to demonstrate myself.

I feel on edge, uncomfortable in my skin, desperate for positive feedback. Given my apparent preference for proactive service, why do I hate this so much?

 

[eastern sun]

And then a moment of grace -

With kids in the house from a sleepover last night, I take bagel orders before I leave for the corner store. He calls out, "Can you get me a cup of coffee." I ask, "Black? Small?" - knowing the answers, but just making sure I get it right.

When I return, he opens the bag of bagels and asks, "where's the plain?" I'm confused, instantly aware that I didn't get a plain bagel; and my opportunity for reprieve is lost.

I start to say - "Did you ask for one?" - and then switch . . . "There isn't one. I'll go back." And whatever the reason for my mistake - whether he ever voiced his wishes or not - no longer matters.

I return with a plain bagel, having gone to two stores because the first one was sold out - and I could not settle.

He is happy. And my skin suddenly fits more comfortably.