So much damn incest

[allenknott3]

You're a very angry and insecure person. No surprise you read in LW.

There was no need for that. You cannot tell is someone is a very angry and insecure person based totally on a comment online.

 

[bobsyouruncle55]

You're a very angry and insecure person. No surprise you read in LW.

FWIW, one would think any category would want to see something new, or at least a spin on existing tropes, but guess what? You try to do something differently and the readers seem confused or upset.

They'll eat the same lunch every day and be happy to do so.

angry and insecure? just how do you come to that conclusion?

 

[CuttingEdge]

Under another that you don't post here under. Meaning you want to come here and take shots at people's work, call them lazy, but protect your own so people can't go see you show us how you think its done.

That's if there is even another name. I could tell you I have ten pen names and never have to prove it.

Sadly, it is impossible to prove a negative. In your case it is in essence saying, “I don’t believe you write”. No matter how a person tries to defend themselves from that, there is no persuading someone with that mindset. Yet the proof is in my wording of my original post. “Adding tension”, including “plot twists”, “characterization”… These are not terms used by non-writers.

My original statement still stands. The “oh my God factor’ is instant when a writer does a story where they are having sex with their sister, but to get that same ‘oh my God factor” with a traditional relationship takes far more words, backstory, and conversation. All that takes wordsmithing skill. That does not mean SOME incestuous writing does not include that, but its rare because as a whole incestuous writing falls back to the shock factor of being so taboo, and why it is lazy writing. The truth is also there with series. Characterization, back story, engaging conversation, repetitive actions… that all takes time and skill to parse out in a story.

Erotic stories are by far the hardest stories to write because it is romance, action, and characterization all in one… and on a subject we all have vast experience in. I started out writing erotica professionally and without question it has honed my skills to where it is today. I would not be the published novelist that I am had I not. And that is my drive, to encourage the writers out there doing erotica now, that by constantly challenging their writing skills to improve, they too can become published novelists if they wish. But it takes improving their writing skills, and that takes practice. Using incestuous relations to make tension in a story instead of using other means, is NOT going to get a writer there. Making excuses, getting defensive and then professing falsehoods about someone who tells fellow writers this, is not going to work either.

I am not upset at you. You don’t know what you don’t know. You did not know that I am a professional writer who got paid for years to write erotica. And good for those that want to remain doing amateur writing stories.

But for other writers who want to publish novels and be professional writers, I am telling them, ‘you got this’. I did it, and so can they. They can write publishable mainstream, novels, but they have to practice writing the challenging stuff too like understanding how to increase tension in a story. Writing, “I can’t believe I was in bed now with my sister”, just isn’t tension building you would see in a publishable novel. Move beyond that and a person's writing will improve tenfold.

That is not making shots at a writer of a certain erotic genre, its giving solid writing advice.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Sadly, it is impossible to prove a negative. In your case it is in essence saying, “I don’t believe you write”. No matter how a person tries to defend themselves from that, there is no persuading someone with that mindset. Yet the proof is in my wording of my original post. “Adding tension”, including “plot twists”, “characterization”… These are not terms used by non-writers.

My original statement still stands. The “oh my God factor’ is instant when a writer does a story where they are having sex with their sister, but to get that same ‘oh my God factor” with a traditional relationship takes far more words, backstory, and conversation. All that takes wordsmithing skill. That does not mean SOME incestuous writing does not include that, but its rare because as a whole incestuous writing falls back to the shock factor of being so taboo, and why it is lazy writing. The truth is also there with series. Characterization, back story, engaging conversation, repetitive actions… that all takes time and skill to parse out in a story.

Erotic stories are by far the hardest stories to write because it is romance, action, and characterization all in one… and on a subject we all have vast experience in. I started out writing erotica professionally and without question it has honed my skills to where it is today. I would not be the published novelist that I am had I not. And that is my drive, to encourage the writers out there doing erotica now, that by constantly challenging their writing skills to improve, they too can become published novelists if they wish. But it takes improving their writing skills, and that takes practice. Using incestuous relations to make tension in a story instead of using other means, is NOT going to get a writer there. Making excuses, getting defensive and then professing falsehoods about someone who tells fellow writers this, is not going to work either.

I am not upset at you. You don’t know what you don’t know. You did not know that I am a professional writer who got paid for years to write erotica. And good for those that want to remain doing amateur writing stories.

But for other writers who want to publish novels and be professional writers, I am telling them, ‘you got this’. I did it, and so can they. They can write publishable mainstream, novels, but they have to practice writing the challenging stuff too like understanding how to increase tension in a story. Writing, “I can’t believe I was in bed now with my sister”, just isn’t tension building you would see in a publishable novel. Move beyond that and a person's writing will improve tenfold.

That is not making shots at a writer of a certain erotic genre, its giving solid writing advice.

I can't speak for others. I don't think erotic stories are the hardest to write.

I think far harder are the type of stories that the writer is not interested in and has no experience with -- both at once.

Experience/practice is the ultimate trump. With enough experience everything is easy. Had I written twenty lesbian romance stories before, the twenty first I could write with 90% of the brain shut off.

 

[vagrantx]

Nothing about civilization is natural.

Tribal adherence to local sports teams. Fear of outsiders. Love and comitance to another.

 

[allenknott3]

Tribal adherence to local sports teams. Fear of outsiders. Love and comitance to another.

And none of that is natural.

 

[Stopokochac]

I don't get it either to be honest, even though I ended up writing one myself, as apparantly that's what the readers want. But I draw the limit at "cousins" anything else is too much. I brought this topic up before and was accused of "kink shaming". But MY issue boils down to legality. As far as I know, incest is illegal in the U.S., so if the site owners are gonna ban topics like "rape", "gore", "beastiality" and "underaged", because they're illegal, then under that criteria, incest stories should be banned as well. Why does incest get a pass, while other things that are illegal in real life get banned? THAT'S the thing that bothers me and I don't understand. I'm by no means am saying those other topics should be allowed, but neither should incest then. Why the double standard, if they're banning those other topics on the basis of federal laws?

 

[allenknott3]

I don't get it either to be honest, even though I ended up writing one myself, as apparantly that's what the readers want. But I draw the limit at "cousins" anything else is too much. I brought this topic up before and was accused of "kink shaming". But MY issue boils down to legality. As far as I know, incest is illegal in the U.S., so if the site owners are gonna ban topics like "rape", "gore", "beastiality" and "underaged", because they're illegal, then under that criteria, incest stories should be banned as well. Why does incest get a pass, while other things that are illegal in real life get banned? THAT'S the thing that bothers me and I don't understand. I'm by no means am saying those other topics should be allowed, but neither should incest then. Why the double standard, if they're banning those other topics on the basis of federal laws?

Wait, rape is banned on Literotica? What is NonConsent/Reluctance, then?

However, it is Literotica trying to walk the fine line between allowing things and getting shutting down. You are right, incest is illegal in the US, along with a good part of the world. The reason why the double standard exists is because it is things that enough people care about to shut down Literotica, and incest is not one of them. You see incest in a large number of things, like Game of Thrones for example, but it is not something that enough people care passionately about to force the issue.

I am actually on the opposite view, I think everything should be allowed because it fantasy/fiction are all. Because you cannot write an underage story, but your main character can use mind control and that is fine? Or you can write a series about a murderer but you cannot commit a murder in the real world.

I am not sure where Literotica is based, I would also point out that homosexuality is still illegal in parts of the world, but they have an entire category for gay sex.

 

[Stopokochac]

Wait, rape is banned on Literotica? What is NonConsent/Reluctance, then?

However, it is Literotica trying to walk the fine line between allowing things and getting shutting down. You are right, incest is illegal in the US, along with a good part of the world. The reason why the double standard exists is because it is things that enough people care about to shut down Literotica, and incest is not one of them. You see incest in a large of things, like Game of Thrones for example, but it is not something that enough people care passionately about to force the issue.

I am actually on the opposite view, I think everything should be allowed because it fantasy/fiction are all. Because you cannot write an underage story, but your main character can use mind control and that is fine? Or you can write a series about a murderer but you cannot commit a murder in the real world.

I am not sure where Literotica is based, I would also point out that homosexuality is still illegal in parts of the world, but they have an entire category for gay sex.

With "non-consent/reluctance" the character is supposed to enjoy it, and you can't actually use the word "rape" in a story or tag. Though I've seen stories that were straight-up rape slip past the mods. And I've also seen "underaged" stuff slip by in the forums.

That's a good point. I was sort of thinking the same thing, and also I think the owners have an incest.

It's based in the U.S.

 

[lilshymynx]

I don't get it either to be honest, even though I ended up writing one myself, as apparantly that's what the readers want. But I draw the limit at "cousins" anything else is too much. I brought this topic up before and was accused of "kink shaming". But MY issue boils down to legality. As far as I know, incest is illegal in the U.S., so if the site owners are gonna ban topics like "rape", "gore", "beastiality" and "underaged", because they're illegal, then under that criteria, incest stories should be banned as well. Why does incest get a pass, while other things that are illegal in real life get banned? THAT'S the thing that bothers me and I don't understand. I'm by no means am saying those other topics should be allowed, but neither should incest then. Why the double standard, if they're banning those other topics on the basis of federal laws?

It's not illegal to write about illegal things. Think about what you said for a moment, and then think about all of the illegal things that are in books, tv shows, movies, etc. It's not illegal to portray those things. It's not illegal to write about sex with minors. If you want a perfect example of that, go look up the book "Firefly" by Piers Anthony.

Content restrictions are based on what the site owners want to have on their site, and that's it.

 

[Stopokochac]

It's not illegal to write about illegal things. Think about what you said for a moment, and then think about all of the illegal things that are in books, tv shows, movies, etc. It's not illegal to portray those things. It's not illegal to write about sex with minors. If you want a perfect example of that, go look up the book "Firefly" by Piers Anthony.

Content restrictions are based on what the site owners want to have on their site, and that's it.

EXACTLY! So why ban all those things? I don't disagree with you. I think you summed it up perfectly! The owners are just open minded with certain things and close minded with others. Basically, we're at the mercy of what turns THEM on.

 

[BeckyJones]

I totally agree, too damn many insects.

Creepy crawly nasty little things.

My cousin Mo has an exterminator business, I can hook you you up

 

[allenknott3]

With "non-consent/reluctance" the character is supposed to enjoy it, and you can't actually use the word "rape" in a story or tag. Though I've seen stories that were straight-up rape slip past the mods. And I've also seen "underaged" stuff slip by in the forums.

Thanks. I did not know that but yeah, I agreed. I have seen some stories that have slipped through. Also, implied and off-screen underage seems fine too.

So, it is based in the US, I am from and live in the US, so that would make perfect sense. Regardless, Literortica is like all porn, even if they claim otherwise, it promoted what most readers want to see, this is why interracial porn is so common because it is quite popular despite all of its problematic issues.

If you look strictly at the number: Erotic Couplings is the largest category with 74.4K out of roughly 629.5K meaning 11.8%, and incest/taboo is number 2 at 65.7K or around 10%.

A-Categories: between 30K and 50K
3: BDSM, 47K or 7.5%
4: Loving Wives, 43.8K or 7%
5: NonCosent/Reluctance, 37.3K or 5.9%
6: Gay Male, 31.9K or 5.1%
7: Group Sex, 30.7K or 4.9%
8: Exhibitionist and Voyeur, 30.4K or 4.8%

B-Categories: Between 20K and 30K
9: Sci-if and Fantasy, 29.4K or 4.7%
10: Fetish, 27K 4.3%
11: Romance, 23.4K or 3.7%
12: Lesbian Sex, 22.8K or 3.6%
13: Transgender and Crossdressing, 20.4K or 3.2%

C-Categories: Between 10K and 20K
14: Novels and Novellas, 19.2K or 3%
15: Mature, 17.2K or 2.7%
16: Celebrities and Fan Fiction, 16.4K or 2.6%
17: Interracial Love, 16K or 2.5%
18: Non-Human, 15.2K or 2.4%
19: Mind Control, 11.9K or 1.9%
20: First Time, 10.3K or 1.6%

D-Categories, Less than 10K
21: Audio, 7.8K or 1.2%
22: Anal, 6.9K or 1.1%
23: Non-Erotic, 5.3K or .8%
24: Erotic Horror, 5.1K or .8%
25: Toys and Masturbation, 4.9K or .7%
26: Humor Statire, 3.4K or .5%
27: Letters and Transcripts, 1.7K or .2%
28: Reviews and Essays: 1.3K or .2%
29: How To, 1.1K or .2%

Minor Categories, Less than 1K
30: Illustrated, 972 or .2%
31: Chain Stories, 552
32: Non-English, 2

Now some of is surprising and some of it is not, but shows how larger incest is on Literotica, but also incest tends to be one of the most popular categories throughout the internet. Whereas Lesbian sex, which is a fairly popular on the interest is only upper middle of the pack on Literortica.

 

[lilshymynx]

EXACTLY! So why ban all those things? I don't disagree with you. I think you summed it up perfectly! The owners are just open minded with certain things and close minded with others. Basically, we're at the mercy of what turns THEM on.

I don't think it has anything to do with what arouses them personally. I believe it has everything to do with what kind of content they want to have on their site and the people that it attracts.

 

[Stopokochac]

I had no idea this data existed and could be viewed. Thanks for posting that

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

Why does incest get a pass, while other things that are illegal in real life get banned? THAT'S the thing that bothers me and I don't understand.

I think Alaska, Rhode Island, Maryland, and New Jersey could answer that question for you.

 

[allenknott3]

I don't think it has anything to do with what arouses them personally. I believe it has everything to do with what kind of content they went to have on their site and the people that it attracts.

I do not think it has anything to do with what arouses them personally, either but just what they know will not get them in legal trouble and what they think is popular.

 

[Enigmatica91]

Thanks. I did not know that but yeah, I agreed. I have seen some stories that have slipped through. Also, implied and off-screen underage seems fine too.

So, it is based in the US, I am from and live in the US, so that would make perfect sense. Regardless, Literortica is like all porn, even if they claim otherwise, it promoted what most readers want to see, this is why interracial porn is so common because it is quite popular despite all of its problematic issues.

If you look strictly at the number: Erotic Couplings is the largest category with 74.4K out of roughly 629.5K meaning 11.8%, and incest/taboo is number 2 at 65.7K or around 10%.

A-Categories: between 30K and 50K
3: BDSM, 47K or 7.5%
4: Loving Wives, 43.8K or 7%
5: NonCosent/Reluctance, 37.3K or 5.9%
6: Gay Male, 31.9K or 5.1%
7: Group Sex, 30.7K or 4.9%
8: Exhibitionist and Voyeur, 30.4K or 4.8%

B-Categories: Between 20K and 30K
9: Sci-if and Fantasy, 29.4K or 4.7%
10: Fetish, 27K 4.3%
11: Romance, 23.4K or 3.7%
12: Lesbian Sex, 22.8K or 3.6%
13: Transgender and Crossdressing, 20.4K or 3.2%

C-Categories: Between 10K and 20K
14: Novels and Novellas, 19.2K or 3%
15: Mature, 17.2K or 2.7%
16: Celebrities and Fan Fiction, 16.4K or 2.6%
17: Interracial Love, 16K or 2.5%
18: Non-Human, 15.2K or 2.4%
19: Mind Control, 11.9K or 1.9%
20: First Time, 10.3K or 1.6%

D-Categories, Less than 10K
21: Audio, 7.8K or 1.2%
22: Anal, 6.9K or 1.1%
23: Non-Erotic, 5.3K or .8%
24: Erotic Horror, 5.1K or .8%
25: Toys and Masturbation, 4.9K or .7%
26: Humor Statire, 3.4K or .5%
27: Letters and Transcripts, 1.7K or .2%
28: Reviews and Essays: 1.3K or .2%
29: How To, 1.1K or .2%

Minor Categories, Less than 1K
30: Illustrated, 972 or .2%
31: Chain Stories, 552
32: Non-English, 2

Now some of is surprising and some of it is not, but shows how larger incest is on Literotica, but also incest tends to be one of the most popular categories throughout the internet. Whereas Lesbian sex, which is a fairly popular on the interest is only upper middle of the pack on Literortica.

One thing to point out there: crossover between categories can be quite large, but it has to be posted somewhere. A story posted in Incest/Taboo could easily have elements that would fit elsewhere, but the relationship within dictated that it be posted there.

That would have a knock-on effect on other categories, making it seem as though there are fewer stories dealing with the subject overall. A story involving an incestuous lesbian relationship could default to I/T, and so on.

Similarly, a story involving lesbian bdsm could default to the BDSM category, further skewing the stats downwards for the lesbian category. The numbers are not quite as reliable as they may seem at a glance.

In terms of story tags, incest ranks at #9, though that doesn't necessarily give a complete picture of the situation either - some incestuous stories don't use that particular tag, intead using brother/sister, etc.

Using tags: anal is #1 (48,037), lesbian at #4 (30,440), BDSM at #8 (23,547), and incest at #9 with 23,280. Combining the incest tag with the others gives: anal at #5 (2718), lesbian at #8 (2175), and BDSM at #24 (744).

Overall, yes - there are a lot of stories involving incest, but the exact prevalence is trickier to determine than simply the # of stories in a given category.

 

[allenknott3]

One thing to point out there: crossover between categories can be quite large, but it has to be posted somewhere. A story posted in Incest/Taboo could easily have elements that would fit elsewhere, but the relationship within dictated that it be posted there.

That would have a knock-on effect on other categories, making it seem as though there are fewer stories dealing with the subject overall. A story involving an incestuous lesbian relationship could default to I/T, and so on.

Similarly, a story involving lesbian bdsm could default to the BDSM category, further skewing the stats downwards for the lesbian category. The numbers are not quite as reliable as they may seem at a glance.

In terms of story tags, incest ranks at #9, though that doesn't necessarily give a complete picture of the situation either - some incestuous stories don't use that particular tag, intead using brother/sister, etc.

Using tags: anal is #1 (48,037), lesbian at #4 (30,440), BDSM at #8 (23,547), and incest at #9 with 23,280. Combining the incest tag with the others gives: anal at #5 (2718), lesbian at #8 (2175), and BDSM at #24 (744).

Overall, yes - there are a lot of stories involving incest, but the exact prevalence is trickier to determine than simply the # of stories in a given category.

Everything you said is correct.

First, do you know where harem ranks in story tags? Just curious.

As someone who has worked in a library before, story elements do crossover between different categories as you mentioned, but using categories is normally the quickest and easiest way to break down the number of stories. Just like how if you are on Amazon/Netflix some of the films and series crossover between different categories, but their numbers are based on the assigned category.

My view is categories are normally assigned based on the major focus of the story. So if it is a lesbian BDSM story, but BDSM is the main focus then it falls into the BDSM category. For example, I have read harem stories that include incest but they were not in the incest category because harem was the main focus of the story.

 

[Enigmatica91]

Everything you said is correct.

First, do you know where harem ranks in story tags? Just curious.

As someone who has worked in a library before, story elements do crossover between different categories as you mentioned, but using categories is normally the quickest and easiest way to break down the number of stories. Just like how if you are on Amazon/Netflix some of the films and series crossover between different categories, but their numbers are based on the assigned category.

My view is categories are normally assigned based on the major focus of the story. So if it is a lesbian BDSM story, but BDSM is the main focus then it falls into the BDSM category. For example, I have read harem stories that include incest but they were not in the incest category because harem was the main focus of the story.

In terms of it's overall ranking, no, but a quick search of the tags gives 13,898 results for 'harem', of which 456 are also tagged 'incest'. Most of those tagged with both are not in Incest/Taboo as you say, but in the Sci-Fi & Fantasy or Mind Control categories instead.

Over the years, I've found it far easier to find the type of story you're looking for by tags rather than categories on here (tags.literotica, in case you, or anybody else is unaware), with the author themselves choosing the category stories can end up in unexpected places for various reasons.

Though the author chooses the tags too, of course, so the accuracy depends on the individual posting rather than any kind of curation, but in general they seem to give a slightly more accurate view of how many stories have a given type of content than the categories do.

 

[allenknott3]

In terms of it's overall ranking, no, but a quick search of the tags gives 13,898 results for 'harem', of which 456 are also tagged 'incest'. Most of those tagged with both are not in Incest/Taboo as you say, but in the Sci-Fi & Fantasy or Mind Control categories instead.

Over the years, I've found it far easier to find the type of story you're looking for by tags rather than categories on here (tags.literotica, in case you, or anybody else is unaware), with the author themselves choosing the category stories can end up in unexpected places for various reasons.

Though the author chooses the tags too, of course, so the accuracy depends on the individual posting rather than any kind of curation, but in general they seem to give a slightly more accurate view of how many stories have a given type of content than the categories do.

if you had seen another one of my posts, I argued harem tags tend not to be strictly what I would consider to be harem.

All I am looking for (and it does not necessarily have to be a harem) is one main male character having sex with multiple different women, but not sharing those women with other men i.e. there is no other guy involved. I called that a harem, but some disagreed.

 

[DominatrixBreeder]

Incest is love, incest is life.
Step incest is good too.

 

[Astrotrain]

I've enjoyed a few incest stories, but it was always despite the incest, not because of it. Sometimes I've copy and pasted them into a word document and used find and replace to change all instances of the words "sister" and "mom" to "stepsister" and "stepmom".

 

[VerbalAbuse]

I've enjoyed a few incest stories, but it was always despite the incest, not because of it. Sometimes I've copy and pasted them into a word document and used find and replace to change all instances of the words "sister" and "mom" to "stepsister" and "stepmom".

Why is that any better?

 

[Astrotrain]

Why is that any better?

Because...they're not blood relatives then? That's a major cockblock for me.