Questions on the best format for utilizing daydream sequences in a scene.

[Jmanchu]

So I have a story, a dark, high fantasy story with elements of sword-and-sorcery and political intrigue mixed in there.

There's one scene I'm trying to rewrite. It's a scene where the female main character lets herself fall into a short masturbation fantasy(the theme of her fantasy is "noncon") in the palace bathhouse. That part of the scene switches between the fantasy that plays in her head. Mainly, her actions she gives herself and the reactions she gets from it. And breaks in between with her internal feelings throughout including hypothetical questions she asks herself for fun. Questions like "in such a situation would she dare to fight the man?" "What if she only angered him? Or worse encourage his ferocious passion?" and "What if she let it just happen? Would it be her fault, then?" Stuff like that.

Anyways, what I'm asking for is ideas and approaches for format. I'd like different perspectives and opinions on how you guys would tackle this. The current format I have right now is switching between italics for the parts that are fantasy(Which I do use a bit for internal thoughts on a fairly regular basis. I do try to rely more on different styles of standard narration without italics to convey characters feelings so I don't use italics as too much of a crutch.) and no italics for the parts that are actually happening in the story, along with her thoughts she asks herself during her act in the bathhouse.

A part of me wants to keep it like that, but I know how italics that go on for too long in one go can be annoying to read sometimes(David Ashura immediately comes to mind) but there are instances 1 paragraph of full italics in between the normal text, and one instance of 2 paragraphs. It's readable to me as the paragraphs are short. There's enough breaks between it and the non italics part to keep it from reading too much like an early 19th century captain's log, cursive and all. The entire part, with the italics and non-italics together, is about a little more than a full Google Docs page. But I'd still like opinions and perspectives for how you fine people would tackle this instead.

 

[Duleigh]

Nonconsentual Masturbation - isn't that an oxymoron?
Anyhow - I like to put in a break marker at the beginning and end of a dream sequence, something like this:

~~~~~*~~~~~​

making sure it's centered and there's a blank line above and below it. Or I'll do the entire dream sequence in italics or I'll do both

 

[Jmanchu]

Maybe it did come off as an oxymoron lol. I should've been more clear. It's a masturbation scene where she imagines herself caught and helpless to an attacker. the theme of the fantasy she imagines for herself itself that is the "noncon" part.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I do this often, and use context to give clarity to inner thoughts. There's no need to use italics, just write clearly.

A break can be a good idea, but again, clarity = comprehension.

* * * *

I use four spaced asterisks, keep it simple, keep the layout unfussy.

You're telling a story, not conducting a type setting course. If the words don't make it clear, you need to address the words, not what they look like.

Don't over think story telling, dream weaving. It's always the words you write, not the bells and whistles.

 

[Jmanchu]

I do this often, and use context to give clarity to inner thoughts. There's no need to use italics, just write clearly.

A break can be a good idea, but again, clarity = comprehension.

* * * *

I use four spaced asterisks, keep it simple, keep the layout unfussy.

You're telling a story, not conducting a type setting course. If the words don't make it clear, you need to address the words, not what they look like.

Don't over think story telling, dream weaving. It's always the words you write, not the bells and whistles.

Yeah, I have been trying to rely less on italics in my edits and other stories I'm working on to keep a cleaner writing style. I still use em because it's convenient. Too convenient and easy to use. A little subtle spoken emphasis on one word in a dialogue. A quick italic thought here and there... I have a bit of an italics addiction I'm battling with, I'm ashamed to admit. I'm satisfied overall with the scene rewrite, just that part I'm talking about is the problem.

I also gotta clarify, since I don't think I did a good job with my first post, that while there are breaks mainly where she does some contemplation and thoughts, they're not fully separate breaks. There are parts within the narration of the fantasy scene which mix her self pleasure acts and reactions along with the fantasy in her head she's following along to. That's what's causing me the real problems. More than a few in the same paragraph I'd show the writing, but the part is a little more than a page long in google docs. Too long for a forum post.

Sorry for the inconvenience and confusion y'all and I really do appreciate you guys answering. There have been similar issues in some of my other stories as well, not necessarily italics based, but in terms of flashbacks and dreams. Now, I've got more ideas to deal with those issues too from here.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I also gotta clarify, since I don't think I did a good job with my first post, that while there are breaks mainly where she does some contemplation and thoughts, they're not fully separate breaks. There are parts within the narration of the fantasy scene which mix her self pleasure acts and reactions along with the fantasy in her head she's following along to. More than a few in the same paragraph I'd show the writing, but the part is a little more than a page long in google docs. Sorry for the inconvenience and I really do appreciate you guys answering. There have been similar issues in some of my other stories as well, not necessarily italics based, but in terms of flashbacks and dreams. Now I've got more ideas to deal with those issues too.

Ahh, okay. For a scene that's only a few hundred words, I wouldn't bother with either breaks or italics. Careful paragraphing and clearly written context sentences (in context, not sign-posts) should be enough to make your meaning clear.

Also (and this may come as a novelty), don't treat readers as children needing to be spoonfed. If you default to thinking readers are clever, and will see what you're doing (assuming you're doing it well), then life gets easier. Mind you, if you have a truly daft reader, no amount of author artifice will get into their skulls, but why waste your time trying to reach that lowest denominator?

 

[Jmanchu]

I've tried to rework a lot of the italics in my edits and new stories, and the scene, and the story as well, overall, I have so far(Aside from the problem part) is pretty clear of italics.
I try not to treat readers as dumb since I do approach my writing with the thought of the first reader being, well, me. Then, I might think about who would like it after and how to make the prose cleaner and more fun to read in the edits.

 

[Jmanchu]

I might have to get someone to look the actual writing over with their thoughts. The mix of the two parts of the fantasy scene and what's going on is just too much for me to sort out. I might keep just a bit of the italics to keep it simple so I don't have to overthink how to write it. Or get an editor who can rewrite it without it becoming a mess if I go that route. Thanks everyone for helping me out. Helped clear my head. Now back to writing that sucker(46,000 words and counting).

 

[Duleigh]

In the end it's your story, it HAS to be what YOU like. I can tell you what I like to do with my stories all you want even at risk of being a type setter, but that's me, not you. (However I was a type setter, I went to the Rochester Institute of Technology the leading college of graphic arts back in my youth and worked as a printer in a couple of small businesses a long time ago.)

It's a good idea to get a beta reader to look at what you have but don't let them talk you into something that you don't like because it is your story and when you press the submit for publishing button you will want to be 100% in love with it.

Personally I'm frustrated that the website limits my ability to make my story look the way I want it to look, but that makes it a great equalizer because other people don't have the knowledge or desire to dress up the appearance of their stories the same way I do. So we work with what we have.

 

[Jmanchu]

In the end it's your story, it HAS to be what YOU like. I can tell you what I like to do with my stories all you want even at risk of being a type setter, but that's me, not you. (However I was a type setter, I went to the Rochester Institute of Technology the leading college of graphic arts back in my youth and worked as a printer in a couple of small businesses a long time ago.)

It's a good idea to get a beta reader to look at what you have but don't let them talk you into something that you don't like because it is your story and when you press the submit for publishing button you will want to be 100% in love with it.

Personally I'm frustrated that the website limits my ability to make my story look the way I want it to look, but that makes it a great equalizer because other people don't have the knowledge or desire to dress up the appearance of their stories the same way I do. So we work with what we have.

I feel you on that, bro. I'm right now considering putting the first two or four chapters of this story(about 5,800 words for the first two to 11650 for all four) to beta reading and then publishing them as the first part on here. I was thinking of waiting until I've written the entire "first book" before I did but I'm taking my sweet time, and the first four chapters I've edited enough to feel its good enough for beta reading. Dunno what else to do with em without input from other people. Decisions, decisions.

 

[SimonDoom]

These are very hard questions to answer without a very specific understanding of how the passage will look. Generally speaking, I avoid special formatting. I like to keep it simple and rely upon the words themselves rather than the form of the words to convey meaning. But the two key guidelines are clarity and consistency. If special formatting is the best way to maintain clarity and consistency, then go for it.

For instance, if in your passage you have rapid shifts back and forth between present time narration and day dream narration, then I would consider using italics for the day dream narration. But keep the day dream paragraphs and passages short, because italics is harder to read than plain font.

 

[Jmanchu]

If special formatting is the best way to maintain clarity and consistency, then go for it.

For instance, if in your passage you have rapid shifts back and forth between present time narration and day dream narration, then I would consider using italics for the day dream narration. But keep the day dream paragraphs and passages short, because italics is harder to read than plain font.

Thank you. My thoughts right there, bro. I've been wracking my head on how to change the way I've had it before with italics for the daydream and the non-italics for present time narration(like how electricblue pointed out is the the cleanest way with a skillful prose of using choice words and sentences to make clear, easy to follow context for what's going on. Which from reading blue's responses potential ideas did actually come to me...), but I've also been thinking that it could work just the way it is with the formatting. I know most people are kind of irked by seeing italics but I personally don't mind a little bit of italics if I read something. So long as it doesn't read like something straight out of a civil war journal, where it's entire pages of nothing but italics. I'm looking at you, David Ashura's "A Testament of Steel." Freaking thing had some chapters that were nothing but italics.) and I find it kind of fun to use, in a weird way. Maybe that's my problem.

I think I might challenge myself for one of my future story endeavors to write in a way where I use only context to create emphasis for things that I might normally italicize.

So far, it's just easier that way without having to either rewrite complete the way the pacing and flow of how that scene works.
I've thought about how I could take out the italics: I'd either have to completely separate the two narratives as clear switches to the scene between eachother... write only one part, like the daydream then finish maybe with the end switching to present time where she's already into it... or just give the general idea of what she's imagining as the female main is doing her business(If I went that route, I might favor the first one).

But I think, in the end, I might just stick to leaving the italics in. Like you said, if it's the easiest way to maintain clarity, then why not. Plus, I should write the way I like, my story, right, Duleigh? . It seems easier. If the italics is too much of a problem for too many people, then I'll just take the criticism to heart and use that feedback to improve my writing for later projects. The passage is only a little more than a page long, and the paragraphs aren't too long... I think. Maybe... I need other people's eyes to see the damn thing. Guess I'll get the first four chapters I wrote ready. Editor Forum time!

 

[NotWise]

In Her Dream House my female protagonist related a series of fantasies in dialogue. She shifted from speaking in past tense in her normal dialogue to speaking in present tense while relating each fantasy. I used no italics or other typography to distinguish her fantasies from the rest of the story.

In your case her dialog is internal, so it may not work for you.

 

[Jmanchu]

In Her Dream House my female protagonist related a series of fantasies in dialogue. She shifted from speaking in past tense in her normal dialogue to speaking in present tense while relating each fantasy. I used no italics or other typography to distinguish her fantasies from the rest of the story.

In your case her dialog is internal, so it may not work for you.

Maybe. Well, it's another idea to play with, if not for this situation, then for a possible future one if I get the chance. Part of the reason I made this thread was because I wanted to know all the different ways people here approached similar subjects for their stories anyways.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Ahh, okay. For a scene that's only a few hundred words, I wouldn't bother with either breaks or italics. Careful paragraphing and clearly written context sentences (in context, not sign-posts) should be enough to make your meaning clear.

Also (and this may come as a novelty), don't treat readers as children needing to be spoonfed. If you default to thinking readers are clever, and will see what you're doing (assuming you're doing it well), then life gets easier. Mind you, if you have a truly daft reader, no amount of author artifice will get into their skulls, but why waste your time trying to reach that lowest denominator?

Yet I will have this issue in a couple of upcoming stories, and I probably need to think about this more. As it stands now, the character jumps around from why she is having the fantasy to what is in it. The longest one covers a span of incidents in two (imagined) days. I think I do need to make it a bit clearer to the readers, although I haven't decided on how to format it. Italics might be a bit much, but some kind of paragraph breaks (with dotted lines or something between them?) might be an option. They are told in the first person, so that may make it easier.

Also, in effect, the fantasies and what the character thinks about them are the stories.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Nonconsentual Masturbation - isn't that an oxymoron?
Anyhow - I like to put in a break marker at the beginning and end of a dream sequence, something like this:

~~~~~*~~~~~​

making sure it's centered and there's a blank line above and below it. Or I'll do the entire dream sequence in italics or I'll do both

Not to be snarky about it, but I could imagine someone being forced at gunpoint to masturbate. I know, it sounds like something that would be in the Story Ideas forum, but such things seem to be popular over there.

 

[Duleigh]

Not to be snarky about it, but I could imagine someone being forced at gunpoint to masturbate. I know, it sounds like something that would be in the Story Ideas forum, but such things seem to be popular over there.

I'm not sure there's a lot of people who could successfully complete that mission, which is what came to my mind also.

 

[ronde]

Ahh, okay. For a scene that's only a few hundred words, I wouldn't bother with either breaks or italics. Careful paragraphing and clearly written context sentences (in context, not sign-posts) should be enough to make your meaning clear.

Also (and this may come as a novelty), don't treat readers as children needing to be spoonfed. If you default to thinking readers are clever, and will see what you're doing (assuming you're doing it well), then life gets easier. Mind you, if you have a truly daft reader, no amount of author artifice will get into their skulls, but why waste your time trying to reach that lowest denominator?

To me, those line breaks and italics are very distracting and they make a story lose continuity. As for quotation marks to delineate thought, that's also confusing to the reader. Quotation marks are used to indicate the spoken word, not thought. It's better to lead into those thoughts with something like, "I thought back to a time ago when...", or, "The memory flashed into her mind just then", and the write the thoughts or daydream in plain text. The reader will understand because you've given the reader the context of the thought or daydream.

 

[Zenith77]

Nonconsentual Masturbation

Next story challenge theme.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I've tried to rework a lot of the italics in my edits and new stories, and the scene, and the story as well, overall, I have so far(Aside from the problem part) is pretty clear of italics.

Are you writing in first person or third person?

Yet I will have this issue in a couple of upcoming stories, and I probably need to think about this more. As it stands now, the character jumps around from why she is having the fantasy to what is in it. The longest one covers a span of incidents in two (imagined) days. I think I do need to make it a bit clearer to the readers, although I haven't decided on how to format it. Italics might be a bit much, but some kind of paragraph breaks (with dotted lines or something between them?) might be an option. They are told in the first person, so that may make it easier.

If you're writing in first person you're inside your own head to start with, so you only need a couple of words to indicate you're off in fantasy space, and the real world is momentarily forgotten.

Even so, in third person it's not much harder to delineate narrative versus a character's thoughts. Write the action as you would any scene, and use words to provide clarity. Italics are clunky, and scene breaks * * * * are only needed, I think, if you're transferring pov from one character to another (for a long value time [edit, bad autopredict] ) or you've got a long temporal gap.

Look at it this way - how often do you find italics in mainstream literature? I'd suggest, not often.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'm not sure there's a lot of people who could successfully complete that mission, which is what came to my mind also.

Plausibility is not not necessarily a priority in Story Ideas.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Are you writing in first person or third person?

If you're writing in first person you're inside your own head to start with, so you only need a couple of words to indicate you're off in fantasy space, and the real world is momentarily forgotten.

Even so, in third person it's not much harder to delineate narrative versus a character's thoughts. Write the action as you would any scene, and use words to provide clarity. Italics are clunky, and scene breaks * * * * are only needed, I think, if you're transferring pov from one character to another (for a long value) or you've got a long temporal gap.

Look at it this way - how often do you find italics in mainstream literature? I'd suggest, not often.

True, I've rarely seen italics in mainstream literature. That was my own invention for internal thoughts. Possibly I'm not as skilled as print-published authors, but it works well enough for me.

Those two stories (actually, there probably will be three) are a lower priority right now, so I'll consider them again when I get to them. As they stand now, it might not be clear to readers which parts are fantasy. Possibly I should simply have the descriptions of fantasy by that person be more continuous, without too many returns to the real world. I think that's what you suggested in the second paragraph. I did say that it was in the first person.

 

[gunhilltrain]

To me, those line breaks and italics are very distracting and they make a story lose continuity. As for quotation marks to delineate thought, that's also confusing to the reader. Quotation marks are used to indicate the spoken word, not thought. It's better to lead into those thoughts with something like, "I thought back to a time ago when...", or, "The memory flashed into her mind just then", and the write the thoughts or daydream in plain text. The reader will understand because you've given the reader the context of the thought or daydream.

True, quotation marks should almost always be used for spoken dialogue only.

 

[Jmanchu]

Are you writing in first person or third person?

If you're writing in first person you're inside your own head to start with, so you only need a couple of words to indicate you're off in fantasy space, and the real world is momentarily forgotten.

Even so, in third person it's not much harder to delineate narrative versus a character's thoughts. Write the action as you would any scene, and use words to provide clarity. Italics are clunky, and scene breaks * * * * are only needed, I think, if you're transferring pov from one character to another (for a long value) or you've got a long temporal gap.

Look at it this way - how often do you find italics in mainstream literature? I'd suggest, not often.

Third person(The chapter in question is third person limited throughout). And yeah, not too often do I see italics. I'm reviewing my writing and considering how to remove some more of the italics(Not the problem part... yet).

I have ideas now on how to completely rewrite that part which would either mean remove a lot of the shifting narrative between the real-time and fantasy daydream events that do happen in the same paragraph, and create clear separations, or completely remove one narration(Ie she starts her actions, then daydream, then her really getting into it, or just get an editor).

I'll keep the italics for now and wait until I get feedback. I already posted a request on the Editor Forum for beta readers. Then I'll see how to proceed from there

EDIT: the way the daydream is narrated is as something like it's happening, with direct dialogue, actions and all. It's not a narration describing the general idea of what's happening in her head.

 

[Duleigh]

Next story challenge theme.

Nonconsentual Masturbation is for people who really don't like themselves