Presidential Debates on ABC

[alaskabibear]

Well, I hope a lot of people took the time to watch the Presidential Debates tonight on ABC. I have seen a lot of debates over the years, but this one came as close to a real debate as any I've ever seen. Give credit to ABC for a job well done!

Now, could there be ANYONE who saw the debates actually still want to vote Republican???

(Actually, IMO any of the Democratic candidates would be preferable to the best that the Republicans have to offer - but, for my money, John Edwards is the best choice for America (Obama + Edwards would be unbeatable!). What so many Republicans just don't get is that corporate greed and special interest ownership of our government is a much larger threat to the future of the average American than gay's getting married, or abortion, or even Islamic extremists. While the Republicans have consistently coalesced their base of support around these topics of fear, the average American has been sold year after year to the highest bidder on the "corporate lobbyist trading block".)

 

[hotel_guy]

do you actually think the dem's don't have a problem w/ "special interest ownership"? could there be ANYONE that truly believes they're any better with that?

for the record, i'm not a republican.

 

[Tymeless]

what I saw on it was a very interesting debate.

 

[alaskabibear]

do you actually think the dem's don't have a problem w/ "special interest ownership"? could there be ANYONE that truly believes they're any better with that?

for the record, i'm not a republican.

I can tell from your response that you didn't watch the debates. That's too bad, because I agree with you about both political parties traditional "sellout" to the special interests. However, if this is a real concern to you then I encourage you to take a look at John Edwards and/or Barack Obama. John Edwards spoke eloquently and with passion about these "special interests" as being the number one threat to the future of this country's greatness. He said that if elected, it will be one of his top priorities to put an end to the "corporate ownership" of America. (unfortunately you are too accurate with your statement about most Democrats - especially the Clintons. So if you don't want more of the same, I hope that you use your vote to try and make a change.)

 

[hotel_guy]

since this isn't really the platform for such discussion (imho), this will be my last comment on it. i don't visit this site to debate politics.

anyhow, i did watch much of the debates, but it didn't get 100% of my attention (helping my son with construction of a xmas present; debates will lose that tug-o-war every time).

speaking eloquently and with passion at debates does not convince me. accomplishment and track records influence me to a much larger degree. debates are little more than a show and are generally filled with cute one-liners, rhetoric, and demagoguing. they influence my vote little.

i generally do not like the "change" the vast majority of dem's represent. the party will foster further socialization of our country and i find that much more troubling than the alarm of "corporate ownership" (which, btw, is hardly new).

regardless, the continued control of the two-party system/ monopoly is what every america should fear. our two-party "leaders" do not govern and lead by principle; they quarterback and command by politics. i believe your two candidates are hardly anything new or different. they may just be better speakers

 

[SweetErika]

since this isn't really the platform for such discussion (imho),

I disagree. The President and politics in general is VERY relevant to the GLBT community. From marriage/partnerships/unions to sex education to health care and beyond, the political climate affects us, so I don't think it's inappropriate to discuss candidates and issues in GLBT Chatter.

I don't know how long you've actually been here, but this forum used to be a fine place for thought-provoking discussion on a variety of issues that affect our community and us as part of larger communities. I can't recall when it happened, but at some point there was an influx of men who pretty much only started and participated in "fluffy" threads about sex, porn, cocks and wanting to meet other guys. The non-sexual discussion/meatmarket threads started dropping to the bottom of the page quickly and many of us who had previously enjoyed those discussions stopped frequenting this forum.

Now, I have nothing against the fluff threads or those who participate in them, but my point is that I think the sheer number of them has given many the impression that this isn't a good place for more serious discussion and debate, or it's not worth posting it here because it will largely be ignored. I do believe that's a crying shame; we're missing out on hearing from a lot of intelligent, wise, eloquent members and gaining a ton of knowledge because of it.

This isn't really directed at you, Hotel, I just wanted to express my views on the relevance of political discussion and support Alaskabibear in bringing some of the thought-provoking conversation that this forum used to benefit from into to the foreground.

I'm running out the door ATM, but I'll be back to add to the discussion. It's important to me as a bisexual, sex-positive, middle-class, American woman.

 

[alaskabibear]

I disagree. The President and politics in general is VERY relevant to the GLBT community. From marriage/partnerships/unions to sex education to health care and beyond, the political climate affects us, so I don't think it's inappropriate to discuss candidates and issues in GLBT Chatter.

I don't know how long you've actually been here, but this forum used to be a fine place for thought-provoking discussion on a variety of issues that affect our community and us as part of larger communities. I can't recall when it happened, but at some point there was an influx of men who pretty much only started and participated in "fluffy" threads about sex, porn, cocks and wanting to meet other guys. The non-sexual discussion/meatmarket threads started dropping to the bottom of the page quickly and many of us who had previously enjoyed those discussions stopped frequenting this forum.

Now, I have nothing against the fluff threads or those who participate in them, but my point is that I think the sheer number of them has given many the impression that this isn't a good place for more serious discussion and debate, or it's not worth posting it here because it will largely be ignored. I do believe that's a crying shame; we're missing out on hearing from a lot of intelligent, wise, eloquent members and gaining a ton of knowledge because of it.

This isn't really directed at you, Hotel, I just wanted to express my views on the relevance of political discussion and support Alaskabibear in bringing some of the thought-provoking conversation that this forum used to benefit from into to the foreground.

I'm running out the door ATM, but I'll be back to add to the discussion. It's important to me as a bisexual, sex-positive, middle-class, American woman.

Well, I was going to just let this thread die, but Erika's thoughtful comments have prompted me to add my thoughts to this "larger question". I agree with what she said about these "other" topics being relevant to us all. (In fact it was just a short time ago that a couple of other people here -(Etoile and i8k4u) sort of jarred me out of my own cynicism and made me take a look at how I was viewing our political system. So in my mind that was a good thing as it helped another person try to have a better life.) I do believe that the kindest and most considerate people on the entire Bulletin Board are found on the "GLBT" and the "HOW TO" forums. However, I have found myself migrating more and more to the How To forum just for something besides the "fluff" (as Erika described it). And while that is a good forum, it has a more general audience and thus loses a bit of the GLBT input and relevance.

So now I would like to ask my fellow GLBT participants;

How many of you enjoy these "other topics" and would like them to be encouraged, or do you find no interest in them and prefer that they not be brought here?

My own personal feelings are that of course we all come here for fun and to let our hair down so we can enjoy our sexuality. But, we also tend to get to "know" one another, so who better to discuss the "other issues" with than those here on the GLBT forum? However, the one thing I don't think anyone wants is the ugliness that prevails on the General Board.

 

[curious26TX]

I'd vote Ron Paul

 

[SweetErika]

I'd vote Ron Paul

I've not heard a lot about Ron Paul and am interested in hearing your thoughts on him.

For example, why do you like him or what makes him stand out for you? Can you tell us more about his stance on issues, such as GLBT rights and health care, or anything else that's important to you personally?

Admittedly, I got emotional during Obama's speech last night, after the NH primary. It gave me chills and made me feel hopeful and like I had the power to make a difference, much like hearing MLK's "I have a dream" speech does. It struck me as both relevant to the present and timeless like that, too.

While I haven't settled on anyone yet and have only have the opportunity to vote in two presidential elections thus far, I've never felt that level of emotion from a candidate's speech before. It really made me sit up and take notice of Obama.

 

[eddie03]

Erika, Ron Paul is staunch Constitutionalist (sp?) meaning if its in the constitution he will support it, other wise he is against. He strong about giving back freedoms that have been taken away recently. Many of his positions make sense, however are a bit different than the rest of the field. But he is not afraid to address any issue. However he in my opinion is not electable. He is a Libertarian and very different from any of the other canidates out there. He really doesnt fit either party. Which I dont think is a bad thing, he really bring more thought to the discussion.

Here he is on Leno last night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fwEAf6M1U

There is a link to the second part of the vid in the "about" section. Hope that gives you a taste of what the canidate is about.

I myself am hoping for a Edwards/Obama ticket.

 

[human_male]

Don't sweat it, the worlds going to end soon anyway.

 

[binomial]

However he in my opinion is not electable. He is a Libertarian

Why do those things always have to go hand in hand.... sigh.

 

[Tymeless]

i enjoy serious topics and debates so please bring it on people. I currently am undecided on who to vote for and i'd like to see people present their canidates.

 

[Bill3250]

Everyone talks change, but no one in the running seems to have any idea what has to be changed. Are we going to change the gender of the president; the race; the party; or what? Let's face it, the whole thing has become nothing more than a Media Circus. A year from now, when it's over gas prices will remain high and go higher. The Earth will get warmer. Big Money will control Washington. Forests will burn. City's will flood. Kids will shoot up schools. And the holier-than-thou's will tell us it all began a little more than 5,000 years ago, and that we are all going to hell for not being them.

 

[alaskabibear]

Everyone talks change, but no one in the running seems to have any idea what has to be changed. Are we going to change the gender of the president; the race; the party; or what? Let's face it, the whole thing has become nothing more than a Media Circus. A year from now, when it's over gas prices will remain high and go higher. The Earth will get warmer. Big Money will control Washington. Forests will burn. City's will flood. Kids will shoot up schools. And the holier-than-thou's will tell us it all began a little more than 5,000 years ago, and that we are all going to hell for not being them.

Bill,

A lot of the things you say may remain the same. But, I hope that "we the people" still have enough say in our government to pressure some meaningful change to some of the things that we do have a chance at changing.

Of the things on your list, I personally believe that the greatest danger to our country and our children's future is the "Big Money" control of not only Washington, but even our state governments. Our only way to perhaps turn that ship is to TRY to elect people into the seats of government that see the problem and also want change. The one person talking loudest about that right now is John Edwards.

For many years I thought the Republican mantra of "less taxes, smaller government, etc." was the way to go. However, IMHO it is for the most part they who have sold out the average American to the "Big Money" slowly but efficiently through back room deals and special interest tax breaks. If we could get these people out of control I think a lot of our other problems might be able to be addressed. (I think if you look at your list of ills, you will see the hand of the Republicans on a lot of them - (high fuel costs = years of big oil control and no energy plan; warming earth/pollution= years of letting big industry write our environmental laws; holier than thous dictating policy = not enough other's voting to change the direction)

So, I hope you will not despair of our weakened condition and seeming impotence to fight back. It may ultimately be futile, but I think we owe it to the next generation to at least try to get this country back.

 

[Tymeless]

Bill,

A lot of the things you say may remain the same. But, I hope that "we the people" still have enough say in our government to pressure some meaningful change to some of the things that we do have a chance at changing.

Of the things on your list, I personally believe that the greatest danger to our country and our children's future is the "Big Money" control of not only Washington, but even our state governments. Our only way to perhaps turn that ship is to TRY to elect people into the seats of government that see the problem and also want change. The one person talking loudest about that right now is John Edwards.

For many years I thought the Republican mantra of "less taxes, smaller government, etc." was the way to go. However, IMHO it is for the most part they who have sold out the average American to the "Big Money" slowly but efficiently through back room deals and special interest tax breaks. If we could get these people out of control I think a lot of our other problems might be able to be addressed. (I think if you look at your list of ills, you will see the hand of the Republicans on a lot of them - (high fuel costs = years of big oil control and no energy plan; warming earth/pollution= years of letting big industry write our environmental laws; holier than thous dictating policy = not enough other's voting to change the direction)

So, I hope you will not despair of our weakened condition and seeming impotence to fight back. It may ultimately be futile, but I think we owe it to the next generation to at least try to get this country back.

If we don't fight and make a change in this country and soon this country will fold. There won't be nothing left to compete with china and the rest of the developing world. I'm sure you know that as well.

 

[alaskabibear]

If we don't fight and make a change in this country and soon this country will fold. There won't be nothing left to compete with china and the rest of the developing world. I'm sure you know that as well.

Tymeless, What are some of the changes you see as being needed and important?

 

[SweetErika]

Erika, Ron Paul is staunch Constitutionalist (sp?) meaning if its in the constitution he will support it, other wise he is against. He strong about giving back freedoms that have been taken away recently. Many of his positions make sense, however are a bit different than the rest of the field. But he is not afraid to address any issue. However he in my opinion is not electable. He is a Libertarian and very different from any of the other canidates out there. He really doesnt fit either party. Which I dont think is a bad thing, he really bring more thought to the discussion.

Here he is on Leno last night
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fwEAf6M1U

There is a link to the second part of the vid in the "about" section. Hope that gives you a taste of what the canidate is about.

I myself am hoping for a Edwards/Obama ticket.

I just had a chance to check that, and his website, out.

I find it curious that he talks so much about getting the government out of peoples' lives, yet his voting record and stance on something like abortion seem to indicate he very much believes it shouldn't be a matter of personal choice. I'd expect someone who says they're all about personal choice to put their personal beliefs aside and support policies that actually allow for, you know, personal choice.

I do agree with his stance on some issues, but I can't get behind anyone who doesn't appear to have an actual plan for things like health care or believe pro-choice is often about being for the life of the potential child and woman.

His stance on GLBT issues is a concern to me, as well.

 

[Tymeless]

Tymeless, What are some of the changes you see as being needed and important?

our economy needs fixed and fast. our national debt needs to be taken care of and quickly. Or we can say goodbye to being on top and watch china pass us by.

We need to protect the rights of all workers the first step towards that would be ENDA that is inclusive of everyone. No employer should have the right to fire anyone for being glbt white black asain native american muslim christian shinto or any other person. They should have verifiable proof as a reason to fire someone. I know this is idealogical but it needs to be done.

We need a Universal Health Care package for everyone as well.

ummm thats just a few things i think is needed right now.

 

[trask9]

Ok, I will but in my two cents. My writing is not eloquent as Alaska's so bear with me. Hee hee.
I am undecieded as to who is the best candidate, be it republican or democrat. I do believe we need a drastic change in America and that as voters we can make a difference. We can no longer just be sheep and follow are so called leaders. Most all of Congress is corrupt because of the lobbyists and corporate connections that influence the votes. Pork projects are out of control, spending is out of control, now inflation, the housing crash and god only knows whats next. We should tell our Congressmen not to bail out the housing financial institutes who were only in it for a quick buck but got burned. Let them suffer it out. If my business went down would the gov bail me out. NO........Gov needs to get control of spending, NOW. Get the lobbyists out of government all together. Same for the pharmacutical companies and Oil companies. Open competition for government contracts.
Not just give billion dollar contracts without open bidding to their friends. Make the contractors accountable for every dollar of mine they spend. Remember friends, Its our money the government is spending. Yet we as citizens have no say in how its spent.
Big on my list.
Health care for every American. We are the richest county in the the world and have some of the worse health care.
Education for all citizens.
Control of our borders. NOW.
Deportation of all Illegals. NOW.
Make the country that allows them to infiltrate our borders responsible for the actions of their people. Charge them for the time they were in our jails or in our country.
The Language of America is ENGLISH.
Learn it or leave.
Our flag is The Stars and Stripes. That is our only flag.
Love it or leave.
WE need someone who has enough balls to make these and alot more things happen.
We as Americans can make it happen. Vote, TALK, Take America Back.
AMERICA FIRST. THEN IF THEIR IS ANYTHING LEFT WE WILL HELP WHO EVER NEEDS IT.
Whew, don't get me started.
TJ

 

[alaskabibear]

trask9, I thought that was pretty eloquent - and it sure hit a lot of the major problems.

It's pretty obvious from not only the posts here, but also in the national trends, that there is a growing swell of Americans who see the need for some big corrections in the way our governments are operating (and if we don't get them, it will be like Tymeless said, "We can just say goodbye to being on top...", and sadly so can our children and grandchildren). The big unknown is how to translate our anger into some actual actions. I don't mean to be a one note singer, but it seems that the first thing we have to do is loosen the special interest stranglehold. We must demand that lobbyists be severely restricted (if not eliminated). Until we do that all of the other issues will just get watered down and muddied up to the point that nothing gets done (that's where we are now). With those worms gone, perhaps our elected representatives will have time to listen to what the rest of us think!

Problem is, the worms have the money and money talks (and buys votes). The only thing I know to do is try to vote in as many new members of congress as we can who seem to be honestly for the people. In general, try to vote out the old guard ( like our own Alaskan Senators and Congressman who are all involved in corruption investigations of some form). Until we take back the houses of congress, it will not matter who is in the White House (but a president sympathetic to major reform sure wouldn't hurt!). IF the people ever got back control of Congress we could get things passed like term limits on members of Congress (then the old codgers couldn't stay up there so long as to get corrupted!), we could demand constitutional amendments that address the concerns of minorities, we could demand a balanced budget, we could demand a line item veto for the president, we could demand so much if we could just get a real voice in Congress...

 

[alaskabibear]

I'd vote Ron Paul

I thought Ron Paul made one of the smartest comments during the entire debate; In the discussion about the new record high oil prices, Mr. Paul noted that it is not the price of oil that has gone up, but the value of our dollar that has gone down. He went on to say that in relation to the current price of gold the price of oil has actually remained stable. His views on the need for a balanced budget, and monetary reform are uncomfortably too true. Sad to say, his comments were glossed over by the media.

However, I also don't think a strict constitutionalist can be elected (but I wish he could have a seat at the table when the dust settles - I don't think he is presidential material, but his points and positions are good). And IMHO I'm not so sure that a strict constitutionalist is what we want. Times and societies change and the constitution was designed to be able to change with it.

 

[kbate]

John Edwards spoke eloquently and with passion about these "special interests" as being the number one threat to the future of this country's greatness. He said that if elected, it will be one of his top priorities to put an end to the "corporate ownership" of America.

LMAO - Edwards is 100% owned by the Trial Lawyer's lobby and will work diligently to make certain every business in America is sued into bankruptcy, and he will use Federal lawyers and money to do it.

He might talk a clean government - but his past speaks loudly in favour of voting elsewhere.

 

[Bill3250]

LMAO - Edwards is 100% owned by the Trial Lawyer's lobby and will work diligently to make certain every business in America is sued into bankruptcy, and he will use Federal lawyers and money to do it.

He might talk a clean government - but his past speaks loudly in favour of voting elsewhere.

Aren't they all owned by someone?

 

[alaskabibear]

LMAO - Edwards is 100% owned by the Trial Lawyer's lobby and will work diligently to make certain every business in America is sued into bankruptcy, and he will use Federal lawyers and money to do it.

He might talk a clean government - but his past speaks loudly in favour of voting elsewhere.

kbate, this is why it's beneficial to discuss this stuff. I realize that you were speaking with a good bit of hyperbole, but it did prompt me to do some looking today about John's financing. Found an interesting web site( www.opensecrets.org ) that tries to track the various candidates financing sources. Interestingly, the American Assoc. for Justice (e.g. trial lawyers) have not given anything to Edwards. In fact, it seems that most of the PACs are giving their money to congressional races (Hmmmm, wonder if they know where the real power is or something?).

I found another site ( www.vote-smart.org ) that tracks each candidates voting records and such. I also found a site that had a summary of John's litigation record (but I can't remember where it was). He does in fact believe in the right of citizens to sue and has made a big name for himself in large personal damage lawsuits. I also think he cast some votes during his Senate tenure that were basically against tort reforms (don't really know the details though). And as for me, I think tort reform is needed, especially for medical malpractice since that is one of the major expenses that doctors have to pay (and of course they pass that on to the rest of us). Be a good question to ask John Edwards I suppose.

If you know of any specific info, please post it so we can all be more informed.