"Marketing" a story

[ElectricBlue]

Each to their own, but I can't imagine writing in a way that the words don't (or at least aren't intended to) enhance the story. For me, that's half the fun of writing, and why I really enjoy the editing stage.

That said, I do very little in the way of plotting, and I'm sure plenty of writers consider that unimaginable.

You and me both, except I don't have a major editing phase. My plot points arrive as I go along, and I've occasionally had major plot twists or reveals in the course of a paragraph, which I knew nothing about. And at least two of my favourite characters arrived that way too - where did you just come from?

 

[ThatNewGuy]

That said, I do very little in the way of plotting, and I'm sure plenty of writers consider that unimaginable.

You and me both, except I don't have a major editing phase. My plot points arrive as I go along, and I've occasionally had major plot twists or reveals in the course of a paragraph

The pantsing approach fascinates me. Is there one scene, milestone, or conflict that you know you're working toward before you start? It would be interesting to ground this in specifics, if you're willing to share. No worries, if not.

@StillStunned, how did The Dome 01: Out Into the Wasteland come about? Did it start with the opening scene in which Xero is exiled and then meets Raurri? Did you have an ending and/or major future plot points in mind for future chapters before starting? (Or feel free to pick another story if answering these questions would spoil future chapters).

@ElectricBlue, similar questions for you regarding whatever story you might choose. For example, did the idea for Rope and Veil start with the initial meeting in the lift, the encounter in Ameila's apartment, or with something else entirely (like maybe an image of Amelia's rainbow twisted hair)?

 

[joy_of_cooking]

The pantsing approach fascinates me. Is there one scene, milestone, or conflict that you know you're working toward before you start?

That's one way to do it, backwards-chaining from a goal.

More often I come up with a premise that seems interesting and then forward-chain from there. I just kind of ask, "what could happen next?" over and over until I'm done.

It feels a bit like taking a walk through a big configuration space that closes down as I explore it due to the need to remain consistent with what came before.

By the end it often feels a bit maze-like. I've written myself into a corner and now I need to find a way out.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

It feels a bit like taking a walk through a big configuration space that closes down as I explore it due to the need to remain consistent with what came before.

This is a great point and one of the strengths that I see in the pantsing approach. When you are working to hit specific plot points, you can sometimes fall into the trap of forcing your characters to do things that aren't consistent just for the sake of getting them to that next milestone.

In one of my stories, I had a specific scene in mind that I thought would work well. However, by the time I reached that point in the story, I realized it wouldn't work the way I'd envisioned it because one of the characters would not react in that way. I ended up reworking the scene to keep it consistent with the character.

 

[AshleyLee12]

Too late, we've already got her hooked on the absinthe and innuendo.

Im down the rabbit hole...

 

[AshleyLee12]

this is patently untrue, and you should be spanked for uttering such a falsehood.

Spanking? Promise?

 

[NoTalentHack]

The pantsing approach fascinates me. Is there one scene, milestone, or conflict that you know you're working toward before you start? It would be interesting to ground this in specifics, if you're willing to share. No worries, if not.

@StillStunned, how did The Dome 01: Out Into the Wasteland come about? Did it start with the opening scene in which Xero is exiled and then meets Raurri? Did you have an ending and/or major future plot points in mind for future chapters before starting? (Or feel free to pick another story if answering these questions would spoil future chapters).

@ElectricBlue, similar questions for you regarding whatever story you might choose. For example, did the idea for Rope and Veil start with the initial meeting in the lift, the encounter in Ameila's apartment, or with something else entirely (like maybe an image of Amelia's rainbow twisted hair)?

I'm a pantser that's trying to apply a bit more structure these days, but mostly during the plotting stage. In terms of how most of my stories have come about in the past, it's been usually an idea or a scene that gets fleshed out from there. I have a story seed spreadsheet with 200-odd plot seeds and a dozen or so more that are just a scene idea or phrase that I really liked.

In terms of process, it could be any of those; maybe I like a phrase so much that I come up with a story that could fit around it, but that's pretty rare. The April Fools' story that I started this year but probably won't finish in time started out with the idea of someone's neighbor knocking on their door, out of the blue, and saying, "I want to suck your cock." No previous contact outside of a "hey, neighbor" here and there in the hall and maybe the occasional short conversation. So why would she do that? And then going from there.

More often, I'll sort of zone out when I'm watching or reading something else, and I'll glom onto something that won't let me go until I turn it into a story. The most recent version of that is the story I'm planning to write next; I was watching Percy Jackson with my wife, and my brain kind of went, "Man, why are all the stepfathers in stories like these such losers?" And, of course, in the modern day, it's because it simplifies the storytelling: the point, early on, is the bond with his mother and the search for/disappointment in not knowing his father.

But even if you go back into mythology, there's all these guys that basically just have to deal with... well, getting cucked by a god. Amphitryon, Aegeus, Tyndareus, etc. Even Joseph; there's the whole scene where the angel comes down and says, "No sex with your wife until she gives birth to Jesus! Also, don't you dare divorce her!"

That kind of spun around and around in my brain for a while. A lot of these guys are kings or wealthy merchants or warriors, men who would have recourse in their societies... but it's a god. What else are they supposed to do but suck it up? Even if they aren't directly threatened, they know what happens when you piss off a god.

Originally, the idea was going to be about a literal god, but then I saw a thing about.. I don't know. Some kind of corruption; there are tons of stories about in the news these days. So then it kind of morphed from there to something else that's a lot more nuanced, at least conceptually. We'll see how it changes again when I start writing it, once I'm done with the one I'm writing right now.

Lastly, in some cases it starts out as writing towards a scene and then realizing it doesn't actually fit in the story that I'm trying to tell; that always feels weird, but "kill your darlings" is still good advice. There's this orphan scene that just doesn't fit in no matter how hard I try to make it, even if it's what made the story crop up in the first place, and I have to make the decision to cut it. That kind of sucks, but it's part of the price of writing the stories that I'm happy with.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

There's this orphan scene that just doesn't fit in no matter how hard I try to make it, even if it's what made the story crop up int he first place, and I have to make the decision to cut it.

Wow. Killing the scene that sprouted the original idea for the story would be a tough thing to do! I respect your ruthlessness. : )

 

[joy_of_cooking]

This is a great point and one of the strengths that I see in the pantsing approach. When you are working to hit specific plot points, you can sometimes fall into the trap of forcing your characters to do things that aren't consistent just for the sake of getting them to that next milestone.

On the other hand, working with an outline can also let you detect and resolve such inconsistencies before you've wasted all the low-level work of sentence structure and word choice and so on writing those scenes.

 

[NoTalentHack]

On the other hand, working with an outline can also let you detect and resolve such inconsistencies before you've wasted all the low-level work of sentence structure and word choice and so on writing those scenes.

I've started poking and prodding at a novel using the Save the Cat methodology, and it seems like it offers the best of both worlds. Establish the story beats and the character backstories, make sure they mesh, then pants my ass off getting from one to the next. Early days, though.

 

[StillStunned]

@StillStunned, how did The Dome 01: Out Into the Wasteland come about? Did it start with the opening scene in which Xero is exiled and then meets Raurri? Did you have an ending and/or major future plot points in mind for future chapters before starting? (Or feel free to pick another story if answering these questions would spoil future chapters).

I wrote The Dome quite a while ago, so I don't remember precisely how it came about. But I'll use another recent story as an example: The Walled Garden.

This began as a short stroker with the working title of "A Shared Experience". Two mature neighbours, Christina and Diane, talk on the phone while Diane's young gardener is working, stripped to the waist and sweating. I thought this would make for an unusual take on E/V - the voyeur aspect, besides mostly having a male focus, is usually a solo experience. By having the women talking on the phone, it would add a layer of intensity.

So far so good. I was going to enter it in the Pink Orchid challenge, because I thought these two strong women objectifying a younger man would be a good fit. I wrote the entire first act that way.

But then I decided to add more depth, to make the narrator - Christina - more complex. She was already the follower to Diane's leader, so I decided to increase the contrast. Christina doesn't have a sex life because she's focused on her career. Diane has to drag her out of her comfort zone.

This still didn't seem like it was enough, though. In the spirit of Pink Orchid, I decided to make it a story about how Christina refinds her sexuality. This meant rethinking the roles of the women - Diane became Rosa Flores, a hot and sexually uninhibited Spanish woman who's actually a reflection of Christina's sexuality. And they're not neighbours: Rosa rents the guesthouse - part of Christina's life, but exiled to the fringe. In fact, as the story begins, Christina has decided to kick Rosa out.

I decided to structure the story in three acts, with Christina becoming progressively more involved in the action. This meant going back and forth to add or change details of her clothes - from trousers and sweater to skirt and blouse - and her speech.

Near the end I decided to add the detail that the garden was enclosed. Not only did this let me describe Rosa's moans ringing around the garden, it also enhanced the underlying symbolism. Another was the tree. It wasn't there until I wrote the final act. I had this image of Christina holding onto the trunk with both hands, with the gardener behind her. It was an orange tree to begin with, but in the end I decided an apple tree would not only be a subtle symbol, but also grow in a greater variety of climates.

A lot of the details early in the story came from writing the later acts, as the picture becomes clearer.

So to summarise: I begin with a scene I want to write, and then mould the idea to give it more and more shape and detail. There's quite a lot of going back, but equally a single line or choice of phrase can take the story in a different direction. In this story, for instance, I wasn't sure how to get Christina into the garden for the final act until I thought of the gardener not working hard enough and Christina bringing her boss skills to bear. That turned out to be one of my favourite bits of the story.

 

[intim8]

The pantsing approach fascinates me. Is there one scene, milestone, or conflict that you know you're working toward before you start? It would be interesting to ground this in specifics, if you're willing to share.

I start with a vague situation - often a scene, but not always - and a cardboard character or two. Then I start typing and see what happens. Usually, it initially aims toward that scene, but that scene is not usually the story, it's just a scene. Sometimes, it never gets there.

For a concrete example, I've done some work on a sequel to my Aces series. The basic premise of the original series is that a virus has rendered all but one in a million men infertile. For mildly hand-wavy reasons, artificial insemination can't work, so the lucky guys have to do everything they can to carry on the human race the old fashioned way. (Otherwise, the story wouldn't be here, it would be on some mainstream site ) It follows the MC Brian Abernathy, who is not the kind of guy that ever expected to be in this situation (an "Ace"), and has trouble adjusting to it.

So Aces2 starts, in my head, with a few vaguely defined ideas. Because this is a sequel, more of it is defined than usual for me. But these are literally all I started with, and no more well-defined than they are here. I'm not summarizing the ideas, I'm giving them as whole as they were when I started typing.

1. It's 20 years after the virus hit.

2. The "demographic void" has progressed so that there are only thousands of kids under 20 in the US, rather than the millions there are now. Numbers of people over 20 are roughly unchanged from now, but each year, that boundary will go up in age.

3. This series will focus more on the typical post(ish)-apocalyptic stuff rather than the inner conflicts of one character. More worldwide and society stuff, but I have no idea where that will go, what the central conflict will be, nor any ending.

4. MC Jacob, 18, who is one of hundreds of Brian's sons. They've never met, and Brian is barely, if at all, aware he exists.

5. Jacob will, in future generations, be something of a legendary figure who is seen as kind of a "founding father" of the new world after global population is reduced to the single digit millions (instead of 8 billion).

6. A scene of Jacob and some girl of similar age (to be named later) at a swimming hole in the foothills.

That's all I've got to start with. And for most stories, it's usually closer to only "A guy and a girl at an isolated swimming hole".

So I have started writing the opening scene of this, aware that it will basically be a novel.

I need a place for them to start, so I pick a school and start typing. Name the girl Lilah. Add some world-building as I introduce them. Aha, the school is like the old one-room school houses since there are so few school-age kids. Then I think of the teachers, and how by now all the government schools will have been closed, the bureaucracy collapsed. OK, so college kids volunteer to do the teaching. And the older kids help with the younger kids. This all comes out as I'm typing and think the situation through.

They're going to head up into the hills after school on a sunny afternoon. More world building, the school schedule is totally informal, they can come and go as they please, and they're there only because they want to get educated. They have bikes. Everybody has bikes. There are millions of them just laying around, in empty houses, etc. Bikes that no longer have kids to ride them. Hadn't thought of that till I started typing them getting together after school.

They ride up into the hills. A little more world building, making it up as I go. What the city and suburbs look like now that there is practically no younger generation. General sense of decline, but not yet apocalyptic. The general mood of society is resigned, hopelss, wating to collectively die. Just imagining how people would feel knowing what the future looks like now.

They ride up into the hills and discover this watering hole, leaving their bikes in a little cleft formed by a small stream among the rocks and dirt because they have to climb up to the pool from where they are.

Description of the pool. Since this was the scene I pictured to start this, it's pretty well rendered in my head and I just have to turn it into words. They strip, they swim. They have sex for the first time. First time together, or literal first time for him and/or her? Not sure yet, but probably. Can deal with that later if necessary.

Another idea: the spot they do it in becomes a sort of landmark, because future generations, a very high percentage of them will be descendants of these two. And Jacob is that legendary figure, so everything he did feels important later.

Only one in three(?) of the sons of Aces will be fertile. I make a mental note for later: that means a permanent "underclass" of infertile men. Possibly a source of future conflict? Maybe. Also a catalyst for things like surrogate fathers, etc. A wedding scene pops into my head, with the best man having duties well beyond what they do now. Mentally file that away for later.

They discover that there is another path to the pool, a much easier one, so they leave that way. Do I really want to have them climb down to get their bikes? Screw that, they're going to leave them there. They'll still be there a hundred years later, something of an historical artifact for future generations that congregate here.

Lilah makes a "rule" between the two of them, swimming here is always naked. Another mental note for future generations in Aces3.

All throught this, I'm discovering things about these two people's characters, who they are, how they speak, what they want, etc. They tell me about themselves as I start to live in their heads (or they in mine) to flesh out the scenes and sub-scenes and conversation and try to plant the seeds of things that will come later, even when I don't know what they will grow into, if anything.

They return to town, and now the real story can start. I stopped there for now. It's not a whole chapter, just the opener scene.

No idea where it will go from there. But now I have two characters who are more well fleshed out than they were, and some vague ideas about society and what kinds of conflicts can arise. All I know is that Jacob and Lilah will have a conversation about the future, and what future generations will need, how technology and infrastructure will slowly crumble and disappear. Probably will be the seeds of Jacob's "mission" in life that makes him legendary. Maybe I'll go back and have that start while they are swimming.

I wrote the original Aces series the same way, even to the point of publishing each chapter with no idea of what would be in the next. All I had when I started typing was: the virus and a shy, virgin college sophomore.

 

[intim8]

Save the Cat methodology,

Save the Cat was when my writing started to really stall. Part of it was the fact that I was working more and had less time, but mainly because I started way overthinking things.

 

[ThatNewGuy]

In this story, for instance, I wasn't sure how to get Christina into the garden for the final act until I thought of the gardener not working hard enough and Christina bringing her boss skills to bear. That turned out to be one of my favourite bits of the story.

I love when a solution presents itself to an issue that you've been struggling with. Such a good feeling.

Thanks for explaining how The Walled Garden came together. I enjoyed hearing about the key decisions that helped to shape the story into its final form.

In some ways, I suppose I'm an honorary pantser. I'll often start with an idea for a single scene, then I'll play out the dialogue for both characters in my head while I'm walking the dog or doing dishes. I typically build characters and stories by imagining scenes of dialogue. Many times, that imagined conversation will spark an idea for a future scene/conversation, and I'll play that out in my head too.

Sometimes I'll dive into writing a specific conversation because I can't wait to get a rough version down on paper. Sometimes I don't start writing until the characters or story feel like they've taken shape and I'm excited about the idea. I don't create a written outline, but I need to "see" the stories and characters in my mind before I feel like I can really dive in.

 

[intim8]

I need to "see" the stories and characters in my mind before I feel like I can really dive in.

I can't see them until I see how they react to other people, things going on, even, maybe especially, mundane things. So for that, I have to start writing before I can see them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Just throwing my own meagre thoughts in here…

I don’t write in just one way. It depends on what I’m trying to do. I’ll stick to fabricated works, it’s pretty obvious how to write quasi-autobiographical ones.

Sometimes, if it’s a relatively simple story (say A Holiday Wish at 4K words), I’m clear from the outset where I am going and basically how I am going to get there. I just get on and write. Then edit to ensure greater consistency, drop breadcrumbs in earlier sections, and so on.

Sometimes - and I think my second longest work, Caputpedes, is a good example - I have an idea about what the story is about and how it will end, but the journey is kinda complicated and then I tend to write an outline. I include this in the text of my story and delete bits as I write them. The outline is not set in stone. As I’m writing, new ideas occur, and I go and update the outline. I may even drop bits I thought were a good idea initially, but which no longer fit.

But other times - and here my very longest work, Heaven & Hole is the example - I don’t have a clear picture of the story, but know I want to write about some characters. There I just start writing. The process of writing gets me to where I have a much better idea about what the story is about. At that point, the superposition of waveforms collapses into one or other of the two cases above.

Emily

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Save the Cat

Ooh this looks interesting. Thanks!

 

[Djmac1031]

okay, come on - we're making girl origami!

Origasmi?

I'll be in my corner...

 

[onehitwanda]

Origasmi?

I'll be in my corner...

AND STAY THERE.

no peeking, either.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Just throwing my own meagre thoughts in here…

I don’t write in just one way. It depends on what I’m trying to do. I’ll stick to fabricated works, it’s pretty obvious how to write quasi-autobiographical ones.

Sometimes, if it’s a relatively simple story (say A Holiday Wish at 4K words), I’m clear from the outset where I am going and basically how I am going to get there. I just get on and write. Then edit to ensure greater consistency, drop breadcrumbs in earlier sections, and so on.

Sometimes - and I think my second longest work, Caputpedes, is a good example - I have an idea about what the story is about and how it will end, but the journey is kinda complicated and then I tend to write an outline. I include this in the text of my story and delete bits as I write them. The outline is not set in stone. As I’m writing, new ideas occur, and I go and update the outline. I may even drop bits I thought were a good idea initially, but which no longer fit.

But other times - and here my very longest work, Heaven & Hole is the example - I don’t have a clear picture of the story, but know I want to write about some characters. There I just start writing. The process of writing gets me to where I have a much better idea about what the story is about. At that point, the superposition of waveforms collapses into one or other of the two cases above.

Emily

@onehitwanda & @Djmac1031 see I’m at least trying to keep this on track…

Emily

 

[StillStunned]

@onehitwanda & @Djmac1031 see I’m at least trying to keep this on track…

Emily

On track with the fourth or fifth different topic of discussion in this thread.

 

[Djmac1031]

@onehitwanda & @Djmac1031 see I’m at least trying to keep this on track…

Emily

Yeah but knowing you, you're gonna wind up tying one of us to them.

And judging how you've been conspiring with @onehitwanda lately, it'll probably be me.

 

[MillieDynamite]

A lot of "literary works" don't have discernable pots. They are about character and driven by that. Conversely, anything under 9500 words doesn't necessarily need pre-plotting, either. It can be driven by the characters, action, a combination of both, and written whole cloth without planning. They are the Plantser dream. They can be planned in your head and don't need that plot to be written out. Some people can write long works without pre-plotting. Stephen King comes to mind on this. There's nothing wrong with letting the story flow out and then reworking to enhance what you've written, adding things you missed in the first go-through. Often, it reads as if it was plotted out painstakingly.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Yeah but knowing you, you're gonna wind up tying one of us to them.

And judging how you've been conspiring with @onehitwanda lately, it'll probably be me.

Given your close involvement in my stories, you should probably compose a What She Wrote And Who The Fuck Knows Why - @StillStunned would be happy.

 

[onehitwanda]

@onehitwanda & @Djmac1031 see I’m at least trying to keep this on track…

Emily

i love it when you try so hard. I recline on my chaise-longue, and watch you, and adore how... earnest... you get.