Literotica must do better!

[Bn2f]

So a poem I wrote on Ukraine was rejected. That’s fine, but it’s the weak sauce reasoning and poorly worded response by Literotica I feel compelled to object to:

“In response to overwhelming feedback from readers (who have expressed that they are feeling bombarded by the constant political news, and have requested that Lit remain somewhere they can relax and refresh), we have decided at this time not to publish partisan political articles or anything related directly to current political events.”

First, I understand and respect Literotica’s right to reject submissions on the fly, but this stance on politics would seem to be a pretty big restriction that warrants you telling writers directly in your Submissions Guidelines, yet, it is not mentioned there.

As an aside: I’m still fairly new to the site but my main complaint would be how Literotica could protect writers (its lifeline) from trolls and personal attacks better. It’s rare I get any constructive criticism on my works. To say you have ‘overwhelming feedback’ that warrants you to now create a safe place from toxic politics, but turn a blind eye to these attacks, that apparently have been going on for years, especially against new writers and stories in a particular category, is sketchy, at best.

The news has never stopped ‘bombarding’ anyone. News is a constant. I’m bombarded with weather reports and sports flashes daily. You belittle the intelligence of your readers by assuming politics is something you must step in and shield them from. Who is here clutching their pearls in shock on ANY subject matter on a site where I can explicitly say that I buttfucked my sister and then pissed on the face of my pastor, but saying anything political is a bridge too far? If history is to be a guide, I suspect that the Puritans who asked for you to create a Lake Minnetonka safe space are the same ones who then turn around and insult others with terms like alphas and betas, snowflake, and cuck.

Here are some suggestions for you that I’m sure you’ve heard before:

- Delete your non erotic poetry and fiction categories.

- Delete the section where you post the number of times a member has commented.

- End anonymous commenting.

- Post in better detail the restrictions you feel necessary for your site.

- If a moderator feels it necessary to delete a comment that’s a personal attack (which you do), then also give a warning of possible suspension to that person. Just don’t let them go on to another thread and another contributing writer to make another attack without any fear of consequences.

This isn’t even about my stupid poem on Ukraine. This policy you have is just shortsighted. Your policy is wrong! For example: Covid is timely and Covid has been made political. Do you now reject any story mentioning that?

It’s a shame that on a site that lives off the literary content of contributors, you have chosen to defer to the reader, thus, further enabling trolls and bad faith critics. The works of the likes of Jonathan Swift, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, and Will Rogers would be ‘too political’ by your standards and that’s just fucked up bat shit crazy to say from a site that supposedly exists to promote independent literature.

 

[Winter_Fare]

You know... I get it. I see how frustrating it is to create something and then have it censored here, on this relic of the wild west days of the internet. There are a number of news/poetry threads on here, and on the main forum, perhaps share it here where that rule obviously doesn't apply. You wait two weeks for a poem to leave pending on the main site anyway x

 

[Winter_Fare]

This poem though...
https://www.literotica.com/p/slava-ukranie

 

[windar]

I couldn't agree more with the OP. It's a stupid "rule" and I put that in quotation marks because in order to be actual rules, they need to be clearly stated and consistently applied, which this obviously isn't. To say they are "protecting readers" is sheer unadulterated bull hockey, as are the ads that say "Your story. Uncensored." At least they should be honest and say: "Your story if it doesn't violate any of a number of unwritten rules on a day we feel like enforcing them."

Anyway, I for one would like to read it, so if you wouldn't mind PM'ing it to me, I'd appreciate that. Or just post it here...

 

[lovecraft68]

This is the same site who pushed a 'story event' about lockdown reminding everyone they were locked down during a pandemic and providing no escapism, but rather, "Let us opportunists" get more attention trying to make it sexy.

I imagine the poem said something that in some way could be construed as being negative towards our precious "leadership" therefore going against the sites personal politics...which is how they now practice "free speech"

 

[windar]

My guess is that if you threw in some mom-son sex or some cuckolding, the poem would be accepted without a problem, because that seems to be the main or perhaps sole reason this site exists...

 

[butters]

and perhaps those bitching about the free-to-use site that gives their writing a platform (exposure, in other words) should take a moment to read what THIS forum is intended for.... which isn't the topic of this thread. if anything, it should have been put over in the poetry hangout.

seriously, if you've an issue with the site owner's running of the place, you could try having that conversation with them in PM. Laurel is generally a most helpful person and, even if you don't agree with her policies, is likely to remain civil. No-one here (or on the GB) has any input as to what is published over on the story side. Frustration is a thing... i get it; going on a rant on several boards over your work not being published, and given you pay ZERO to showcase your writing, is not the best way to resolve anything to your satisfaction.

personally, it's often seen as a poet's responsibility to comment on social injustice, global issues and more, and the idea that Ukraine poems aren't being accepted right now seems a bit odd for sure. Again, it's the site-owners' prerogative and is what it is.

 

[lovecraft68]

My guess is that if you threw in some mom-son sex or some cuckolding, the poem would be accepted without a problem, because that seems to be the main or perhaps sole reason this site exists...

Don't forget the rape stories on a site that says they don't allow them.
Meanwhile this person's poem was rejected, but racist, sexist and homophobic comments and threats of violence flow like honey over in the Loving Wives section.
Priorities, ya know

 

[Winter_Fare]

Did you all miss the fact that a poem about the war in Ukraine was published only today???
I smell something and it ain't roses x

 

[windar]

and perhaps those bitching about the free-to-use site that gives their writing a platform (exposure, in other words) should take a moment to read what THIS forum is intended for.... which isn't the topic of this thread. if anything, it should have been put over in the poetry hangout.

seriously, if you've an issue with the site owner's running of the place, you could try having that conversation with them in PM. Laurel is generally a most helpful person and, even if you don't agree with her policies, is likely to remain civil. No-one here (or on the GB) has any input as to what is published over on the story side. Frustration is a thing... i get it; going on a rant on several boards over your work not being published, and given you pay ZERO to showcase your writing, is not the best way to resolve anything to your satisfaction.

personally, it's often seen as a poet's responsibility to comment on social injustice, global issues and more, and the idea that Ukraine poems aren't being accepted right now seems a bit odd for sure. Again, it's the site-owners' prerogative and is what it is.

This site uses the writing to drive traffic to the cam girls from which they make money. We are doing the site a favor by posting here, NOT the other way around. Exposure? That belongs in Exhibitionist and Voyeur I think.

 

[Bn2f]

Butters: I will now have 3 posts to my name, you have 72k. I placed my rant in the general and the poetry sections. Excuse me if I’m not seasoned enough to know exactly where to put my complaint. And you’re right, I am long winded. Which makes me think that you did not read my post at all. I said very clearly in my first paragraph that I am quite fine with my poem not being published. This was not a complaint against that - it’s disingenuous to keep saying that’s my main beef. It’s clear to me that you know the owner of the site. Cool! I do not know and have never looked that person up. I never named any names and I said what I said against Literotica the operating entity. I posted my complaint and I also posted suggestions. I am very open to hearing conversation on those issues I listed.

 

[Lyricalli]

and perhaps those bitching about the free-to-use site that gives their writing a platform (exposure, in other words) should take a moment to read what THIS forum is intended for.... which isn't the topic of this thread. if anything, it should have been put over in the poetry hangout

You are correct about the forum location, and I have now moved this to Poets' Hangout.

 

[Lyricalli]

@Bn2f Since your post was not about poetry, I have moved it to the poetry subforum. As was mentioned, the submissions side of Lit is separate from the forum side of Lit. While we can host your discussion, there's nothing that we can do to meaningfully address concerns about how the submissions side makes decisions.

 

[Bn2f]

Well, thank you for putting my post in the proper place. I thought I placed it here in the general and also in the poetry. I posted it twice. I didn’t post it, as butters implied, all over the forum. I want to say again that my rant was against Literotica. When I have a problem with Amazon I don’t blame Jeff Bezos nor expect a direct reply. So thanks again.
Let me try again to state my rant more succinctly: I wrote a poem that was rejected. I objected to the reason that was given, which was, that readers essentially needed a safe place away from politics. I used that rejection reasoning to highlight, what I believe, is a flawed hypocrisy: if readers can be afforded a safe place from current politics, why can’t contributing writers be afforded a safe place from years of attacks from trolls and bad faith critics?
Is this a subject matter that can be discussed here?

 

[Lyricalli]

Is this a subject matter that can be discussed here?

Yes, as I said in my post, this forum is fine for discussions not related to poetry.

 

[butters]

This site uses the writing to drive traffic to the cam girls from which they make money. We are doing the site a favor by posting here, NOT the other way around. Exposure? That belongs in Exhibitionist and Voyeur I think.

the stories, indeed, but if you think the kind of poetry (the majority of it, not all as there are always great exceptions) published over on the writing side draws the crowds and directs them to the cams then i can only wonder why you'd think that.

Butters: I will now have 3 posts to my name, you have 72k. I placed my rant in the general and the poetry sections. Excuse me if I’m not seasoned enough to know exactly where to put my complaint. And you’re right, I am long winded. Which makes me think that you did not read my post at all. I said very clearly in my first paragraph that I am quite fine with my poem not being published. This was not a complaint against that - it’s disingenuous to keep saying that’s my main beef. It’s clear to me that you know the owner of the site. Cool! I do not know and have never looked that person up. I never named any names and I said what I said against Literotica the operating entity. I posted my complaint and I also posted suggestions. I am very open to hearing conversation on those issues I listed.

Yes, I have a lot of posts. I've been here almost 15 years and was both a contributor to the writing side as well as a general member over here who then did a stint as a moderator on the poetry forum, too. Being new: personally? I take time to familiarise myself with any site's rules and what-goes-where protocols... it's really only good manners. No, I do not know Laurel, but anyone is free to send her a PM if they have issues about the site.

Long-winded is never an issue for me; I read quickly and don't have the attention span/emotional range of a teaspoon. I don't comment on particulars of posts I haven't read and will reserve the right to point out how a post comes across if it seems whiny and disgruntled or spam. You are not the first 'poet' to complain about their pieces not being accepted and the reasons they were offered.

So now your post is in the suitable place for discussion. I'm sure it'll bring comments that support your 'beef'. My point stands, however, that–even as I agree that blocking political or current events poems seems strange, even undesirous–it's at the discretion of the site owner. If you really want to question the reason you were given, speak with Laurel. If someone other than Laurel gave you that reason, perhaps she will change that. I can't imagine your poem's any worse than the majority posted there. The Poetry Forum is a different animal... we have some very talented writers here, both published and unpublished, who care more about the actual craft than the 'poets' posting over there. If you wish to improve your writing skills, or get proper feedback on your writes, I'd suggest you start a thread for your work to be discussed.

 

[butters]

also: being 'new', do you consider it acceptable to post on the GB as well as here that the site's being run all wrong and tell the owners how they should be operating it? A successful site that's been running decades? Your OP definitely comes across as just another disgruntled rejected writer. As for 'I'm sure you've heard before', perhaps the owners have their reasons for running their site the way they do and, having heard these suggestions before, have had reasons not to implement them.

Here are some suggestions for you that I’m sure you’ve heard before:

- Delete your non erotic poetry and fiction categories.

- Delete the section where you post the number of times a member has commented.

- End anonymous commenting.

- Post in better detail the restrictions you feel necessary for your site.

- If a moderator feels it necessary to delete a comment that’s a personal attack (which you do), then also give a warning of possible suspension to that person. Just don’t let them go on to another thread and another contributing writer to make another attack without any fear of consequences.

This isn’t even about my stupid poem on Ukraine. This policy you have is just shortsighted. Your policy is wrong! For example: Covid is timely and Covid has been made political. Do you now reject any story mentioning that?

 

[Bn2f]

It is not beneath me to get into a petty back and forth with a member, but today, I’m going to grant you that I’m whiny, teaspoon brained, that my submissions aren’t any worse than others, and whatever other barbs you care to throw. You’re free to critique my submissions at any time. Whenever I hit the send button on something I’ve written, I’m putting a little piece of me out there. Every so-called writer on this site does. You seem to lean towards the belief that because this site is free it is beyond reproach. That’s interesting to me. Maybe we can get into that later. But right now, since I’ve posted in the proper section, feel free to answer how we protect contributing writers from trolls.
Ugh, you see, you say that you read my post, but you consistently misrepresent what I say. I never said the site was run all wrong. I never got on a high horse to tell them what to do. I offered suggestions to a problem. Now, again, the problem is not me getting my poem rejected - it’s how can this site better restrict bad faith trolls and increase constructive criticism? I’ve offered my suggestions - they are not decrees. Please offer yours or even critique mine.

 

[Bn2f]

Let me point out one more thing. This whole discussion I’m having with butters is basically a microcosm of my complaint. Butters, I didn’t say that you had 72k posts as an insult. I made that comment juxtaposed against my now five postings. You’re right, I should’ve read the rules on exactly how and where to post my complaint. I made two posts. Batted 50%. I’m sure on your very first post here you hit the ground running. I didn’t. But like some new writers have experienced on this site - you chose to ad the little advice you gave with heavy snark. Are you on the level of some of the regular trolls on the site? Certainly no, but ya kinda did the same thing.

 

[butters]

I never got on a high horse to tell them what to do.

As writers, we should learn nuance. Readers determine the meaning of what we write, so it is up to us to make the best attempts at clarity if we wish for them to infer our intended implications.

As for 'troll protection', I don't know if the new formatting of the site has retained the old system but that allowed the author of published pieces to delete troll comments. When we publish, we expose our creations to the eyes of all kinds, and that includes trolls. It's a fact of life and, just as over here we can effectively place them on ignore. People have asked (on a regular basis) why can't troll posters be banned, permanently banned. Those that get banned frequently return under a new username; if they get reported, sometimes they will get a further ban, oftentimes it's only if that new username breaks further posting rules. Permabans don't seem to work or be upheld, as trolls abound. Maybe it's because VPNs make such a ban unworkable. I don't know.

As authors, we have to get over thin skins and accept not all reviews will please us. When I published regularly, I always got a mixed bag and left them there–with the rare exception of comments not even relating to the piece. No point getting angry about it, just as there's no point in reading any animosity into my replies to you where none exist. Cool heads prevail.

If you decide to post your poem for review, and should I decide to take the time to review it, then my comments would come from a purely craft&content perspective.

 

[Bn2f]

Thank you. I sincerely appreciate your comments.

 

[butters]

Let me point out one more thing. This whole discussion I’m having with butters is basically a microcosm of my complaint. Butters, I didn’t say that you had 72k posts as an insult. I made that comment juxtaposed against my now five postings. You’re right, I should’ve read the rules on exactly how and where to post my complaint. I made two posts. Batted 50%. I’m sure on your very first post here you hit the ground running. I didn’t. But like some new writers have experienced on this site - you chose to ad the little advice you gave with heavy snark. Are you on the level of some of the regular trolls on the site? Certainly no, but ya kinda did the same thing.

*sighs*

you were the one who waltzed in, new to a site, telling the site (the owners are the only ones who matter there) their 'policy is wrong!' and listing a whole lot of different ways they should run the place. So, yes, snark is not an unacceptable–or unexpected–response. Less so here on the Poetry Forum; the GB is renown for its snarkability.

Discussion is not trolling, and you've been offered sound advice. I'd suggest you settle down, settle in and stop insulting the site before you have a better understanding of it. Poets, like any artistic faction, can be an emotional bunch; there're huge differences between discussion and trolling. The fact you liken my responses to trolling says more about your own lack of perspective in this.

 

[Bn2f]

Our timing is off. I don’t view you as as enemy and, as stated before, someone I care to argue with. My last post was true and I appreciate your comments.

 

[windar]

I take issue with the statement that the site owners can do what ever they feel like. Legally, maybe (though even there I am not so sure), but I think when you solicit stories from writers, then simple fairness says you owe them clearly stated criteria for rejection (not a message board post from years ago) and the consistent application of those rules. The OP's "poem" is a political screed and not really a poem, but I have seen a recent case where someone wrote a really well-crafted story and had it rejected because it was set in Ukraine in the current war. Once a site advertises itself as "Your story. Uncensored." which this site does, then they take on certain obligations to the writers who respond to that solicitation. Not an obligation to accept every story, but an obligation to make it clear ahead of time, not ex post facto, what the criteria for acceptance and rejection are.

Facebook, Twitter and the rest have found out that owning a very public website entails certain obligations and doesn't mean you can do whatever you feel like. So, this site is certainly fair game to be criticized.

Everyone here should keep in mind that no one comes to this site to watch Laurel reject stories. They come to read stories and unless Laurel is going to write them herself, without writers there are no stories...

 

[butters]

I take issue with the statement that the site owners can do what ever they feel like. Legally, maybe (though even there I am not so sure), but I think when you solicit stories from writers, then simple fairness says you owe them clearly stated criteria for rejection (not a message board post from years ago) and the consistent application of those rules. The OP's "poem" is a political screed and not really a poem, but I have seen a recent case where someone wrote a really well-crafted story and had it rejected because it was set in Ukraine in the current war. Once a site advertises itself as "Your story. Uncensored." which this site does, then they take on certain obligations to the writers who respond to that solicitation. Not an obligation to accept every story, but an obligation to make it clear ahead of time, not ex post facto, what the criteria for acceptance and rejection are.

Facebook, Twitter and the rest have found out that owning a very public website entails certain obligations and doesn't mean you can do whatever you feel like. So, this site is certainly fair game to be criticized.

Everyone here should keep in mind that no one comes to this site to watch Laurel reject stories. They come to read stories and unless Laurel is going to write them herself, without writers there are no stories...

They may solicit stories, but they are under no onus to publish any they choose not to. As for the reasons given to Bn2f, they were clear–even if we don't agree with them. The issue here (for me) would be the one winterfare's brought up: Bn2f's was rejected where another in a similar vein was put through. Discrepancies like these are worth addressing.

I've had my own criticisms of Lit, and at one stage took a wander around the web looking for something more suited to my frame of mind at the time. I never quite found anything like Lit, and so here I am. Any of us are free to leave if we're not happy with the place and what it has to offer; anyone's free to address issues they see as "problems". If you really want to get anything actually DONE about the problems, you need to speak to those who make the rules, aka the site owners. Having gone through the motions, if things get changed for the better then you'll be a happy bunny. If they don't, then there are a gazillion other sites to use instead.