How would you help first-time writers?

[Djmac1031]

I've been at this about two years now.

I still consider myself a new writer. And certainly still an amateur.

So I don't know how great a "teacher" I'd be, as I'm always still learning.

So I suppose that would be my advice; be open to learning.

To second several others here, I believe reading is key. The problem of course is: what are they reading?

If they're reading badly written stories, they're gonna learn bad habits, obviously. Especially if they LIKE those stories.

And let's face it, there's a LOT of badly written stories out there. Even professionally. Movies and TV shows are rife with it. And most people don't know the difference, they just know what they like.

 

[AG31]

Identify what it is that makes stories you like attractive to you. Stay away from questions like, Should I start with plot? Should I focus on arousal? How long should it be? Which POV should I use? At least until you feel you've become adept at writing the kind of story that you like, and that sensitive editors will recognize as accomplished.

If your goal is to get lots of readers and high scores on Lit., then after you've honed your skills, you can look at categories to focus on. But good (authentic) writing is essential, if not sufficient for attracting a lot of positive feedback.

 

[TheRedChamber]

To address the info-dumping issue in the OP, while there are more than a few different approaches to starting a story, a simple to explain one is this:

Start your story with an action and a small dilemma.

e.g. The Male MC can't find his car keys.

In the couple of hundred words you take to resolve this minor inconvenience, you can establish...
- The couple are going to a BDSM club this evening.
- The couple have been to a number of BDSM clubs over the years.
- The husband is quite scatterbrained.
- The wife is patient with him (but slowly reaching her wits end).
- The wife isn't sure if she want to go (keep going to) the BDSM club due to [Central Conflict].
- The husband lost his keys from his trouser pockets when he was jerking off to [The Writer's Favourite Fetish] porn last night.
- Far from being angry about this, the wife also likes BDSM porn.

Hopefully, by the end of the scene, the reader a) has a reasonable character sketch of the couple and their interactions b) has an inkling of what the central conflict/point of the story is c) know the kind of kinks that are likely to be on offer d) is genuinely excited by their imminent arrive at the club.

The issue with all this is that you actually have to set it as a scene which involves a lot more work than just writing 'I like BDSM porn...'.

 

[EroticCupcake]

I also consider myself a new writer, and I see a version of this type of problem in my own writing, especially during early drafts.

For me the key is to recognize when to downshift from summary to story. I think "when" to downshift is teachable.
"How" to downshift in to story may be beyond the scope of any mentor.

I agree with @TheRedChamber specific advice.

If I had to make a rule, it would be "You must start with dialog." I think that rule would force granularity and has a chance to put them on the right track.

 

[EroticCupcake]

Another version of advice might be, "DON'T write a personal narrative."

I'm trying to break down a new story idea, where the central interest / villain is an attractive young woman who is manipulating people within a multi-billion corporation through rumor and personal connections.

One of the craziest (true) moments of my life was the night the real version of this woman took me behind the curtain and spelled out all the techniques used to do this. Once she showed me, I couldn't unsee it. Afterwards I saw her fingerprints on all sorts of events.

The real life version of this woman is endlessly fascinating to me, but this is also a trap.

I need to fictionalize this story to protect people's privacy, but I also need to fictionalize it to protect myself from being a bad writer.

The events in real life were almost good enough to directly import, but is my motivation to talk about this crazy experience or is to write the best story possible?

I'll somehow incorporate that moment where she scared the shit out of me, but I'll try to ditch everything else.

Don't write a personal narrative, and you reduce your chances of falling in this trap.

 

[Bazzle]

I don't want to sound dismissive, but I read many stories here (or start to read them) that read as though the author had never actually carefully read a story before. They show no grasp of the most rudimentary mechanics of writing, and no grasp of the most elemental storytelling principles.

The whole reason I started writing was I felt I couldn't complain about others stories if I hadn't written my own

As far as beefing up storytelling and narrative is concerned, one way to approach it is to develop the habit of thinking like a journalist.

I have on my Reddit a collection of journalistic style stories of smoking models. To do exactly that dig below the surface of the fetish and to talk to girls involved in it. Research over imagination!

I've got a selection of real life story arc's to play with.

 

[FeralSmile]

I'm not as tolerant as others, which is why I seldom read stories on this site.

The name of the site is "LITERotica", not "EROTiture".

There is a large percentage of writers here who couldn't give a crap about whether their stories contained any of the recognized literary components (character, setting, plot, theme, frame, exposition, ending/denouement, motif, titling, narrative point-of view). And forget about expecting to find any literary devices (tone, irony, figurative language, symbolism, foreshadowing) being employed in most of the stories here, especially by newer writers.

I'm not looking for or expecting Melville, Dickens, or Hemingway. I'm expecting something slightly more advanced than Penthouse Forum, and my expectations are seldom met. Why is it so widely accepted that erotic stories are unworthy of literary integrity?

In part, I think erotic writing is limited by what people are looking to get out of it. If you're just hoping to get off, or get others off, then style isn't really a primary concern.

This falls apart, of course, when readers are turned off by excessively shoddy prose, and give low scores, so both the writers and the readers are left displeased. But then some writers do approach this like it's just a Penthouse letter, and they're more concerned with sharing an experience or fantasy than they are with how the story is told. And, to be fair, some readers are perfectly happy with this approach.

 

[FeralSmile]

This is where I'm working to get to. I'm trying to figure out my voice and how to apply it to the story. It's a lot harder than coming up with the details.

Practice! Change your POV character around and retell the same story, or better yet tell a new one. Change from first person to third, or vice versa.

Also... a lot of novice writers are far too literal. You don't want to have every character say precisely what they're thinking at all times, because most people don't really talk like that. Don't be too "on the nose", in other words. Talk around things. Characters should have complex internal lives and their words and actions just provide a glimpse into what they're really like. As the writer, you get to shift the focus, moving the reader's window of insight around, changing lighting, and so on, but you should almost ALWAYS avoid having the window just show everything.

E.g. "to be or not to be, that is the question" is vastly more interesting than "should I kill myself?" The reader knows this is what Hamlet's really talking about, but Hamlet's talking around the issue rather than approaching it head on. People aren't often completely self-aware or completely honest, so we approach a lot of topics circuitously. Love and sex are especially fraught topics for most people, and our hang-ups and emotional baggage (and the lack of perfect insight into others' thoughts!) often alter how we approach even straightforward discussions. So give your characters the freedom to be fucked up like real people, to read between the lines and force the reader to do the same.

 

[BobbyBrandt]

I'd draw a line between "new" and "don't care" writers. Everybody needs to start somewhere, and this site is as good a "somewhere" as anywhere else. For many authors this will be the first place they've ever shared a story with the wide world, and I don't expect them to meet professional standards. If I want uniformly high quality, I probably ought to go pay money for something written and edited by professionals.

But that's not the same thing as not valuing or aspiring to those skills. There's no shame in being a beginner, but it's a pity when somebody's been writing for ten years hasn't progressed beyond their first efforts.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not against newbies taking a shot at writing and making mistakes along the way. That is totally acceptable, much like a do-it-yourselfer trying to tackle projects around their house or a shade tree auto mechanic working on their own car.

However, if someone sets out on a new endeavor without understanding even the basics, or researching how to attempt the feat beforehand, my sympathy for them wanes. Erotica is literature (or art) that deals substantively with subject matter content that is erotic, sexually stimulating or sexually arousing. I don't believe that we should accept excuses for those who don't respect this or even attempt to do so.

They might as well go stick the screwdriver into the electrical outlet.

 

[onehitwanda]

Wading in with my own disorganised thoughts:

Here are the most important things I think about when I'm pondering a story.

1. Why?

Why is this scenario happening? Is it something that a reasonable person would expect to happen within the context of the world the story is taking place in. In my most recent work, a girl has developed a massive crush on her hairdresser because it's the only physical contact she has with another human being - a small seed but an important one. I need a why. Debbie, the university supermodel with a perfect figure and the sexual appetites of a Tyrannosaurus in heat is nonsensical. Deborah, the usually well-behaved biology undergraduate who gets herself into a pickle when she lets her hair down at a university party? Much more believable for me, and I suspect for most people here on Literotica. Which brings us to...

2. Who?

Who IS Deborah. Why is she the way she is? What has happened to her over her short / long life to make her the way she is? Is she lonely? Is she focussed on her studies or is it just a lark? What does she want? What does she think she wants? What does she actually need and is she going to get it as part of this story? If not, refer back to 1. Why? and make sure it's consistent.

Everything else flows from these two questions. If you've done your preparation, and have even a passing plot for your characters, your work will already be better for it. Much better, most likely. Readers are capricious; while many of them will leave after they've left a splash or two of dna on their keyboard, there is a large subset who become invested if they have a reason to do so.

When you have the bones of the story, THAT is when you add details to flesh it out. The colour of Deborah's hair. The way Percy, the class Jock, catches her eye because he's actually put on a decent shirt for once. The way that he's actually a damn good dancer with a natural sense of rhythm. The cracks that show in his facade when Deborah spends more than five minutes actually talking to him instead of just seeing his mask.

Etc etc.

also punctuate correctly you fucking scallys

Story. Then Seasoning. Then Structure.

And then sleep on it for a couple of days before coming back to it.

And your cake will be better for it.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

This is where I'm working to get to. I'm trying to figure out my voice and how to apply it to the story. It's a lot harder than coming up with the details.

You'll get there, just write. Try things and experiment. The story is your voice.

 

[JaxRhapsody]

I've been at this about two years now.

I still consider myself a new writer. And certainly still an amateur.

So I don't know how great a "teacher" I'd be, as I'm always still learning.

So I suppose that would be my advice; be open to learning.

To second several others here, I believe reading is key. The problem of course is: what are they reading?

If they're reading badly written stories, they're gonna learn bad habits, obviously. Especially if they LIKE those stories.

And let's face it, there's a LOT of badly written stories out there. Even professionally. Movies and TV shows are rife with it. And most people don't know the difference, they just know what they like.

Not counting my high school writing portfolio, I've been writing around ten years or so, and still feel like an amateur.

 

[EroticCupcake]

I found a more concise way to express an idea.

Experience is the difference between knowing "when" to shift from summary to story and "how" to shift from summary to story.

Identifying is teachable (i.e. story needs more pathos), but executing is experience.

 

[AmberSolis]

The sting of the whip on his ass sent shivers of delight inside. His agonized groans cause her pussy to moisten.

Solid start. Holds the reader's interest. In very few words you set a compelling scene.

I'm betting you already knew that, though. I mostly commented because I hope you will develop this, further!

 

[lovecraft68]

I know this is going to sound snarky, but I've thought this many times over the years, and am an example of it myself.

I would tell them to stay away from here until they have a few stories under their belt and a feel for their own style. If you're brand new to where you haven't published anything yet this place isn't a good influence. The red H and number obsession, the do it this way, no that way, the derailing of topics, the snark a newbie can face if they're not properly agreeing with the regulars here, etc...

If you've been writing for a bit then most of that won't matter as much if you spend time here. I wrote for over a year before I came here, and looking back was glad it happened that way. New authors need some advice from time to time, especially simple questions about how the site itself works, but I think here its more like you're told how to write more than anything else, so best to find your own way for awhile and get based first.

In the end I don't think writing can be taught, and you can do it or you can't and until you've started on your own no advice is really going to help.

But that's me, and I've always been one of those people who just say "Hey, yeah, I'm gonna do it!" and just jump into things. But its what I'd say

 

[Cagivagurl]

I signed up for the volunteer editors program recently. A lot of the requests I get are first-time writers on the site. While a lot of them aren't technically atrocious, and where there are mistakes they can be explained by ESL in certain cases I've seen, they just don't read as stories. It's more like, everything that happened is summarized. Some of these are very long, but the tone never really changes from that of a summary to that of a story.

It's occurred to me that 1. these are probably the first things resembling stories these people have written (that's okay, the more the merrier and so on and so on)
2. They might not actually be trying to write a story, but instead to essentially write down the things that turns them on.

I'll provide a made-up, relatively condensed example of the like I'm describing without leaking what's been shared with me from other authors:

"I spend a lot of time watching BDSM porn. My wife obliges my habit, as she is into the scene as well. We have been to several lifestyle clubs together. When we first met, she gave me the best handjob I'd ever experienced. I came so hard my socks fell off. I've been besotted with her ever since."

Did you ever have a phase of writing like this starting out? How did you get past it? What would you say to someone to fix a story that goes on and on like the paragraph above, never delving deep into anything but just listing details and events that happened? I'm beginning to realize just how true it is that I would be a very bad teacher.

Good for you....
Well done...
A brave move...
For me, the best advice, would be to ask them who their favourite writers were / are.
Then, tell them to go back and read their stories...
Forget grammar and the rest of the rules.
If they have a glimmer of an idea, get them to expand on it. Include emotions... thoughts, conversations.
That might give them the incentive to try harder.
Stories that read like a shopping list lack those things.

Cagivagurl

 

[alohadave]

they just don't read as stories. It's more like, everything that happened is summarized. Some of these are very long, but the tone never really changes from that of a summary to that of a story.

It's occurred to me that 1. these are probably the first things resembling stories these people have written (that's okay, the more the merrier and so on and so on)

This is pretty much me, and I've been writing for a year now. Getting it to feel like an actual narrative is fucking hard.

I suspect this is also why my stories are really short, but maybe I just have a spare style.

Edit: Just realized that I've already replied a couple times to this thread.

 

[Paul_Chance]

First, I am going to drop some random observations here, for the consideration of the crowd-sourced wisdom.

1. There is a clash between first time writers and first time editors or teachers. Often, the first time editor/teacher tries to re-write the story in their style or in the manner they would have written it. This is always a mistake.

2. When offering your services as an editor, if you haven't already done so, delineate which services you're offering and the parameters of your editing. Specifically, educate your potential writers on two things.

A. The length of stories you're willing to edit.

Novel (40,000 words +)
Novella: 17,500 – 40,000 words
Novelette: 7,700 – 17,500 words
Short Story: Less than 7,500 words

*You'll see many variations of word count and definitions, these are from the Hugo and Nebula Awards criteria

B. The type of editing services you'll provide:

Developmental Editing: The big picture of story structure and plot, also called a Story Editor.

Line Editing: Sense, Logic, Sentences, POV, transitions, Scene and Chapter Integrity

Copy Editing: Spelling, Grammar, Word Choice, Consistency

Proof Reading: the final sweep before publishing

Alpha Reader/Beta Reader: The alpha reader reads the drafts; the beta reader reads the finished product.

Critique Partner: Swaps stories in all stages back and forth, tit-for-tat.

Writing Coaching: Help you develop stories and creative ideas and stay focused and motivated.

Writing Mentor: Help you develop as a working/professional writer.

4. The turn-around time and expectations. Make sure you give yourself, as the editor, enough time to give the work the detail it deserves. We've all probably had the experience, or inflicted the experience on someone else, of saying "Hey, will you beta read this story for me?" and then either been hit by (or whacked someone else with) a 100K monstrosity as "Chapter 1". Most author/editor relationships fail because of unrealistic time expectations.

5. Your novice writer is going to have minimal writing experience, so this begins their journey as a writer. A novice editor is going to think "I can do it all". Start with Copy Editing, it's the foundation of the writing/editing partnership - spelling, grammar, word choice, and consistency.

6. Always remember, you are not the co-author. It's their story. Let them tell it how they want to. Even if you think it sucks.

 

[Paul_Chance]

So, you've got this budding relationship with a novice writer. They've got the basics of written English down. They can write sentences, paragraphs and scenes. They just can't tell a story. What they need (and they don't know they need it) is a story editor. Someone to help them, well, tell a good story.

As an editor, that is what you really want to do, as opposed to grinding through spelling, grammar and word choice. You want to co-create. You want to help people tell stories dammit.

You want to be a Developmental Editor. The creative part. The big picture. The story.

There is no substitute for basic story structure. There is no substitute for the dreaded plot, even if they're a pantser.

All stories MUST have:

1. A beginning that sets the stage and introduces the rising action.

2. A middle that contains the bulk of the story.

3. An end that wraps it up.

So that is where you start. Introduce them to basic story structure and basic plotting by placing the scenes in order inside the basic story structure. As an author you can't effectively break the rules until you know the rules.

1. Beginning:
-Scene 1: Establish a place and time for the story, introduce the POV character, the Protagonist.
-Scene 2: Within that place and time, introduce the Antagonist.
-Scene 3: Put the Protagonist and the Antagonist together and introduce the conflict.

2. Middle
-Scene 1: Set the conflict in motion.
-Scene 2: Play with the conflict (rising action)
-Scene 3: Play with the conflict some more (complications/challenges)
-Scene 4: Bring the conflict to a crisis point

3. End:
-Scene 1: Resolve the conflict
-Scene 2: The antagonist rides into the sunset
-Scene 3: The protagonist rides into the sunset

That's all there is to a story. With a novice author you'll have to introduce them to the concepts, then they can play with them to their hearts content. It might take one story for them to figure it out, if they're motivated and talented. It might take multiple stories for them to figure it out. They might never figure it out.

 

[SamBomb]

My theory is worry about words later, but get down what you want to happen first.

 

[Paul_Chance]

Stroke Me Stroke Me

Uh, I don't want to go through that. I just want to write down this really hot thing that happened to me in band camp with this little redhead.

That's perfectly fine. The technical term is a vignette. It's a single episode told in a handful of scenes with an emphasis on detailed and evocative language.

There has to be a beginning, but it can be a single sentence.

"This one time, in band camp..."

There has to be a middle, and that is going to lift all the weight. Make it as detailed and evocative as possible. It can be a single page or it can be long passages of intricate details.

There has to be an end.

"Then, I never saw her again."

Nothing wrong with vignettes. I think (just from what I've read) a sizeable portion of the stories posted on Lit are just vignettes, either short and sweet strokers or longer indulgent strokes. There is a huge audience for them, using the fifteen minute rule.

 

[djrip]

Stroke Me Stroke Me

Uh, I don't want to go through that. I just want to write down this really hot thing that happened to me in band camp with this little redhead.

That's perfectly fine. The technical term is a vignette. It's a single episode told in a handful of scenes with an emphasis on detailed and evocative language.

There has to be a beginning, but it can be a single sentence.

"This one time, in band camp..."

There has to be a middle, and that is going to lift all the weight. Make it as detailed and evocative as possible. It can be a single page or it can be long passages of intricate details.

There has to be an end.

"Then, I never saw her again."

Nothing wrong with vignettes. I think (just from what I've read) a sizeable portion of the stories posted on Lit are just vignettes, either short and sweet strokers or longer indulgent strokes. There is a huge audience for them, using the fifteen minute rule.

Vignette, good term, I even think I used it in my bio to describe my work. Sounds like I used it accurately; most of my stories are just like that.

 

[Gamblnluck]

It's more like, everything that happened is summarized. Some of these are very long, but the tone never really changes from that of a summary to that of a story.

I tell people to read what they wrote and ask themselves if that is how they would tell the story to somebody over a beer in a bar. Would they combine three or four ideas like 'flight of ideas'. No, they'd tell the story from beginning to end. At times they might have to explain something as they went along but it would flow.
You don't have to use special descriptive phrases. Tell the story first and THEN go back and add a few things to bring it to life if needed.

 

[Gamblnluck]

But then some writers do approach this like it's just a Penthouse letter, and they're more concerned with sharing an experience or fantasy than they are with how the story is told.

Most of those Penthouse stories were better written than some of the stories you see here. They told the story without wasting a lot of space. Of course everybody knew they were heavily edited to be readable and fun.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Hard to say if I'll use this as an opening or not. Or even in a story, they'll say I plagiarized it, even if it is self-plagiarism.

Solid start. Holds the reader's interest. In very few words you set a compelling scene.

I'm betting you already knew that, though. I mostly commented because I hope you will develop this, further!