Grammar Nazi?

[NaturalHammer]

The reason, for me, to try and avoid that kinda mistake is this…
I’m reading your story. It’s really good. I’m ”there” - feeling it - right there with your characters. And then there’s this error - and my brain sees it, recognizes it as an error. So in that fleeting moment (however tiny it may be) I’m recognizing the error. So what I’m NOT doing is focusing on the story in that moment.
As an author - even of stories “for pervy humans” - why do that? Why not work to avoid that?

To answer the good question, 'cause of time. I / we have a limited amount of time, I want to spend it on things I enjoy, find funny and I guess can share with others if they like it. Going over some symbols (as that's all writing really is) to make sure it fits someone's definition of right is a waste of time. Yer, I get that it slows some people down or takes them out of the story but is that the majority and how well does it fit our chosen broad theme?

Personally, if the symbols are clear enough so that people know what's going on, that'll do nicely. Anything more is a waste of time.

You know what would work -
1. Write story
2. Check it over as best you can
3. Have editors help as best they can
4. Publish somewhere
5. If someone has time and wants to 'make it better' by fixing everything that bugs them, then rock on.

And don't get stroppy anyone ... this is just an idea and answer to a question .

 

[lovecraft68]

You guys? Do You think there's some nefarious plot from the AH regulars seeking to suppress your work because you dropped a comma?

But let's be real here, is it really that much work to just correct your shit and repost? The rest of us do it.

I can see this as let's be real here....take a look at some of the outright "did you even try" stories here regarding grammar and punctuation, and then tell me this person's story should get the boot.

The frustration that we often see here isn't so much about whatever the rule is its more like "oh, lucky me gets to be the one in 20 times they enforce it" In their own post they mention their prior stories are the same and went through.

And of course that frustration is natural, yet is met here with sarcasm and derision because boot licks gotta lick. Overlords are perfect, and don't you ever forget it, peon.

 

[lovecraft68]

The reason, for me, to try and avoid that kinda mistake is this…
I’m reading your story. It’s really good. I’m ”there” - feeling it - right there with your characters. And then there’s this error - and my brain sees it, recognizes it as an error. So in that fleeting moment (however tiny it may be) I’m recognizing the error. So what I’m NOT doing is focusing on the story in that moment.
As an author - even of stories “for pervy humans” - why do that? Why not work to avoid that?

I guess I'm just not all that picky. An error has to really be blatant for it to take me out of a story. Bad enough for me to have to stop and reread the entire sentence more than once to figure out what they meant bad...otherwise I'm able to glide over just about anything as long as the story telling itself is good.

 

[NaturalHammer]

There's only one gatekeeper - Laurel. Us "guys" have no influence over her approval process. I run my stuff through the free version of Grammarly to pick up the dumb errors.

Narrrr there's surely not a single person doing approvals? That'd be bonkers if it was the case. What happens when they die?

 

[KeithD]

Narrrr there's surely not a single person doing approvals? That'd be bonkers if it was the case. What happens when they die?

Yep. One acquisitions editor. Laurel.

 

[NaturalHammer]

Yep. One acquisitions editor. Laurel.

Well fook me, that's real dumb.

 

[KeithD]

Well fook me, that's real dumb.

She's also apparently half of the couple who own the place and either don't think there's enough revenue to support more employees or who don't want to share the wealth.

 

[StillStunned]

I listened to an audiobook a while ago about "authenticity" in fantasy fiction, with a foreword by Scott Lynch. He talks about how as a writer you're asking the reader to believe in the world you've created, and that the greatest gift the reader can give you is a willingness to suspend their disbelief. If you abuse that gift, by describing something that doesn't fit the logic of the world you've created, you'll lose the reader's trust.

I feel the same way about spelling and grammar. The occasional typo is perhaps unavoidable, but if I see too many mistakes it tells me the author is asking me to care more for their story than they do. Because like it or not words and sentences are the story's most basic ingredients. I wouldn't eat twice in a restaurant where the cook doesn't prepare the ingredients properly. I wouldn't listen to music if the musician can't be bothered to hit the right notes, or use the right instrument, or sing the lyrics properly.

If you believe your story is strong enough to not need proper spelling or grammar, good for you. Maybe it is. But it would have to be a hell of a narrative to keep me interested.

 

[NaturalHammer]

I listened to an audiobook a while ago about "authenticity" in fantasy fiction, with a foreword by Scott Lynch. He talks about how as a writer you're asking the reader to believe in the world you've created, and that the greatest gift the reader can give you is a willingness to suspend their disbelief. If you abuse that gift, by describing something that doesn't fit the logic of the world you've created, you'll lose the reader's trust.

I feel the same way about spelling and grammar. The occasional typo is perhaps unavoidable, but if I see too many mistakes it tells me the author is asking me to care more for their story than they do. Because like it or not words and sentences are the story's most basic ingredients. I wouldn't eat twice in a restaurant where the cook doesn't prepare the ingredients properly. I wouldn't listen to music if the musician can't be bothered to hit the right notes, or use the right instrument, or sing the lyrics properly.

If you believe your story is strong enough to not need proper spelling or grammar, good for you. Maybe it is. But it would have to be a hell of a narrative to keep me interested.

Challenge accepted .

 

[ElectricBlue]

I feel the same way about spelling and grammar. The occasional typo is perhaps unavoidable, but if I see too many mistakes it tells me the author is asking me to care more for their story than they do. Because like it or not words and sentences are the story's most basic ingredients. I wouldn't eat twice in a restaurant where the cook doesn't prepare the ingredients properly. I wouldn't listen to music if the musician can't be bothered to hit the right notes, or use the right instrument, or sing the lyrics properly.

Exactly. If the writer doesn't care about their story, why should I? There's too little time to bother with junk writing, which is what it becomes if the writer is too lazy, too careless, too "time poor", to make a half-decent effort.

I'm pretty forgiving of the occasional typo (we all have them) if the story is compelling, but if it's constantly poor writing, I'm out. I'm not giving my time to someone who's not making an effort.

 

[NaturalHammer]

I feel the same way about spelling and grammar. The occasional typo is perhaps unavoidable, but if I see too many mistakes it tells me the author is asking me to care more for their story than they do. Because like it or not words and sentences are the story's most basic ingredients. I wouldn't eat twice in a restaurant where the cook doesn't prepare the ingredients properly. I wouldn't listen to music if the musician can't be bothered to hit the right notes, or use the right instrument, or sing the lyrics properly.

I believe a better analogy would be, that the dinner tastes the same to everyone but some people like to count the individual rice on the plate to make sure that they didn't have a single grain more than anyone else.

j/k

 

[StillStunned]

I believe a better analogy would be, that the dinner tastes the same to everyone but some people like to count the individual rice on the plate to make sure that they didn't have a single grain more than anyone else.

j/k

No, the better analogy with rice would be a cook serving a risotto with undercooked rice and, when challenged, saying it's al dente and what's the fuss, risotto is all about the flavours anyway.

 

[onehitwanda]

No, the better analogy with rice would be a cook serving a risotto with undercooked rice and, when challenged, saying it's al dente and what's the fuss, risotto is all about the flavours anyway.

Cake's just burnt flour, right?

 

[M_K_Babalon]

Leme ask... do you not enjoy writing here, or in general? I get there's so much time in a day, but if writing isn't one of your hobbies, then why do it?

There are a myrad of others sites you can just toss anything on. Lit has standards and they're not even that high. Sure a few errors get through, but if it looks consistantly wrong, then it won't. I'm not perfect with it either, but I try and am still learning twelve years later. No moderated site is just going to let lacksidaisical work slide, if that's your m/o; piss-poor effort. I've seen other writers where this is the case and they're usually fan fic writers. I don't think writing is a hobby to half-ass.

 

[NaturalHammer]

I think a lot of you have missed the point. My point was point in two distinct questions that people have round about answered.

(Will say, not much community here.)

It's not a problem, no worries. I'm alive and well today, I've moved on.

 

[FeralSmile]

To answer the good question, 'cause of time. I / we have a limited amount of time, I want to spend it on things I enjoy, find funny and I guess can share with others if they like it. Going over some symbols (as that's all writing really is) to make sure it fits someone's definition of right is a waste of time. Yer, I get that it slows some people down or takes them out of the story but is that the majority and how well does it fit our chosen broad theme?

Personally, if the symbols are clear enough so that people know what's going on, that'll do nicely. Anything more is a waste of time.

You know what would work -
1. Write story
2. Check it over as best you can
3. Have editors help as best they can
4. Publish somewhere
5. If someone has time and wants to 'make it better' by fixing everything that bugs them, then rock on.

And don't get stroppy anyone ... this is just an idea and answer to a question .

That's not how I see it, though of course your mileage may vary.

I think that the essence of language is about finding ways to use these symbols to represent what you mean. I think laziness or "it's good enough" approaches don't reflect just approaches to grammar but approaches to writing in general. If you care, you care. If you don't, you don't. Caring means your communication happens more effectively; not caring means your communication suffers.

Yes, every reader glosses things. We skip over stuff that isn't as interesting. We gestalt agglomerations of ideas into simpler and more approachable data chunks.

But I think it's the writer's job to provide the most and best information that they can as skillfully as possible, according to the audience they hope to reach. In doing so, we show the reader that we care about HOW we communicate. That's where the art and the craft of writing lies: not just in more or less generally getting some points across, but in saying what we mean to say as well as we can.

If you've ever had a story just grab you with how well it's presented - not just how hot some scene or raw idea is, not just how relatable you find it, but with how the words reached you - you've experienced a story where the author really cared about word and punctuation choice.

When you say, "This shouldn't matter! I had a story. People did stuff, and readers can more or less tell who and what," you're essentially saying that you don't think the craft of writing matters.

When you say, "It's unfair that my stories were rejected because they failed to meet basic standards of punctuation or grammar", even when other stories (yours or someone else's) were accepted, you're arguing that standards don't matter. That craft doesn't matter. That art isn't really important to writing.

I don't agree.

I don't think that a respectful and generally constructive disagreement indicates a lack of community, either. People could approach disagreement (when it happens) with anger and aggression and insults. That's not what I see here.

Insofar as you were asking real and honest questions and were open to real and honest feedback, I think the community here has been pretty fucking decent.

 

[ElectricBlue]

(Will say, not much community here.)

There is, but you're not yet part of it, this being your first thread and all. But by the sound of your last post, you might be moving on.

Seems to me you came expecting some sympathy, but didn't quite get what you wanted. You're not the first to do this, you won't be the last.

 

[FeralSmile]

There is, but you're not yet part of it, this being your first thread and all. But by the sound of your last post, you might be moving on.

Seems to me you came expecting some sympathy, but didn't quite get what you wanted. You're not the first to do this, you won't be the last.

Agreed.

If you come here with the idea and approach, "This place sucks! I shouldn't have to care about how I express myself" then the Authors' Hangout is very probably not the place you seek. Maybe you expected that the majority of people here just don't give a fuck about writing, and hey, fair enough. Many places don't.

But how will you react when you learn otherwise?

Will you be bitter?

Dismissive?

Open to the idea that maybe the problem you've experienced isn't everyone else's, but yours? That maybe growth is not only an option, but a desirable one?

 

[StillStunned]

Sympathy probably isn't the most likely response if you start a discussion on a writers' forum with the subject "Grammar Nazi".

 

[FeralSmile]

Sympathy probably isn't the most likely response if you start a discussion on a writers' forum with the subject "Grammar Nazi".

As a grammarian, it's pejorative and insulting. I'm not a fascist, I just prefer when people make an effort to follow the basic rules of our common language. Being a Nazi is bad; caring about how people speak isn't. There's a clear disconnect between the two that makes comparison not only denigrating but evocative of a lot of things I personally abhor.

I'm not ANY kind of fucking Nazi, and fuck anyone who suggests otherwise.

But I do care about how people use our language.

 

[NaturalHammer]

I'm not ANY kind of fucking Nazi, and fuck anyone who suggests otherwise.

Yer I was being funny. Sorry

 

[FeralSmile]

Yer I was being funny. Sorry

S'ok, you didn't direct it at me so I wasn't personally offended. I don't like the phrase though, just as I don't like the idea behind it.

But I have nothing against YOU.

And I can communicate those nuances because words and punctuation matter.

 

[Victoria14xs]

Hammer - I guess I have a different take on our readers (which includes your readers). You referred to them as “pervy humans” and I get that - it’s not entirely unfair. Yet, were we somehow privy to who they actually are in real life, I suspect they’d run the gamut of humanity - from airline pilots to healthcare workers to clergy and on and on. My point is that you and I don’t know who they are.
Among them will be those who agree with your position, who couldn’t care less about that period the editor asked you to remove.
But for others, grammar or punctuation mistakes are unwelcome and jarring interruptions to the flow of the story being told. Sure, it’s an option to take a “fuck ‘em” approach to these people but I don’t think you’re getting much support for that position. Here anyways.

Ultimately, I think this is all about good manners. Good manners toward readers.
“Manners are about imagination, ultimately. They are about imagining being the other person.” Lynne Truss

 

[Phlegeton]

An interesting discussion. Though I do read a lot of English stories, I usually keep to the German part of the forums. Until now, I was unaware that story submissions could be rejected for spelling errors, poor grammar, or other issues. It's different in the German section. I never heard before that a story submission in the German section was rejected for other reasons than forbidden content or something similar.

If I'm honest, my single contribution to literotica doesn't meet the strictest standards and would probably have been rejected, too. That doesn't mean I don't care about correct language, quite the opposite. I hate to find obvious errors in my writings, but, well - errare humanum est.

To contribute to the original question: I think it's essential for literotica to keep to some standards, otherwise, the place would be swamped by bad content. And an initial rejection doesn't mean that your story is kept from literotica forever. You just have to put some work into it and submit it again.

On the other hand, there's the point of limited resources, as NaturalHammer pointed out: And to be perfect, to avoid even the most minor of spelling errors, you need a lot of time. A disproportional amount of time, the higher the standard. Time you could use to plot another story line, think about some really genuine stuff, or do other useful things that other readers might enjoy.

I guess there's a point where perfection becomes pointless. The position of that exact point may be different for everyone, according to one's preferences. I'm rather strict with myself and tolerant with others. I care more about storyline, character development, originality and emotional impact. And I don't dwell on minor errors, as long as they aren't a sign of simple neglect.

 

[M_K_Babalon]

I think a lot of you have missed the point. My point was point in two distinct questions that people have round about answered.

(Will say, not much community here.)

It's not a problem, no worries. I'm alive and well today, I've moved on.

There is a community here. In AH you'll find writers that write at and aspire to the standards. Some have or had writing or editing jobs. Some are professional writers who sell books. Some may not have fully understood what you were trying to convey, in your eyes, but nobody is gonna steer you in the wrong direction. We get all kinds in here, so there's that.